[Unchained] Replacing the big 6 items?

[Sir Dante]

Hi don't have the book yet but I was wondering are there some optional rules in the book to replace the big 6 magic items?

I noticed Mark Seifter suggest in the monk thread to use something to replace the big 6. (can't remember the words)

So bottom line is there something like that in the book :)?

[Sir Dante]

Automatic bonus progression he called it.
Anything like that in there?

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't have the book, but from other threads discussing it, yes, there are at least two.

One just adds stuff ala the Big 6 as you level (starting at level 3 and eventually, at level 20 or so, coming to a +5 bonus to one weapon, one piece of armor, a similar Deflection and natural armor bonus, and an equal bonus to saves, and bonuses to stats). This one comes with halved Wealth by Level.

Another adds bonuses to existing items based on their value, so a Cloak of Elvenkind would also add a Resistance bonus to Saves and so on. I believe this one just adds to the price of all such items.

[AndIMustMask]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I don't have the book, but from other threads discussing it, yes, there are at least two.

One just adds stuff ala the Big 6 as you level (starting at level 3 and eventually, at level 20 or so, coming to a +5 bonus to one weapon, one piece of armor, a similar Deflection and natural armor bonus, and an equal bonus to saves, and bonuses to stats). This one comes with halved Wealth by Level.

Another adds bonuses to existing items based on their value, so a Cloak of Elvenkind would also add a Resistance bonus to Saves and so on. I believe this one just adds to the price of all such items.

actually homebrewed a similar idea myself for a home game:

Spoiler:

PASSIVE 'BIG SIX GEAR' SCALING CHART LIST THING

EQUIPMENT BONUSES:
1 - NONE
2 - NONE
3 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
4 - +1 AC (natural armor)
5 - +2 to one mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus)
6 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
7 - +1 AC (natural armor), +1 AC (deflection)
8 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus)
9 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
10 - +1 AC (natural armor), +1 AC (deflection)
11 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to a +4
12 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
13 - +1 AC (natural armor), +1 AC (deflection)
14 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to a +4
15 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
16 - +1 AC (natural armor), +1 AC (deflection)
17 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to +4 and a previous +4 to +6
18 - emulate one magic item of =< 100,000g (with GM permission)
19 - +1 AC (deflection)
20 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to +4 and a previous +4 to +6

ENHANCEMENT BONUSES (guideline set for +1 weapon 1/2 WBL, +1 armor 1/3 WBL):
1 -
2 -
3 -
4 - +1 weapon, +1 armor
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 - +1 armor (+2)
9 - +1 weapon (+2)
10 -
11 - +1 armor (+3)
12 - +1 weapon (+3)
13 -
14 - +1 armor (+4)
15 - +1 weapon (+4)
16 - +1 armor (+5)
17 - +1 weapon (+5)
18 -
19 - +1 weapon, +1 armor (+6)
20 -

TOTALS:
+6 attack/damage (enhancement)
+6 AC (enhancement)
+5 AC (natural armor)
+5 AC (deflection)
+5 all saves
+6/6/4/4/2/2 [STATS]

EXAMPLE STAT INCREASES:

MARTIAL
+2 str
-> +2 str/dex
-> +4 str, +2 dex/con
-> +4 str/dex, +2 con/wis
-> +6 str, +4 dex/con, +2 wis/int
-> +6 str/dex, +4 con/wis, +2 int/cha

CASTER
+2 [casting stat ("CS")]
-> +2 CS/dex
-> +4 CS, +2 dex/con
-> +4 CS/dex, +2 con/(one of wis or int)
-> +6 CS, +4 dex/con, +2 (two of wis, int, or cha)
-> +6 CS/con, +4 dex/(one of wis, int, or cha), +2 str/(one of wis, int, or cha)

i compensated the lack of wbl spent on such items with more assets that weren't liquid for the players--titles, lands, investment opportunities, etc.

worked alright, but an official version to look at/find flaws in/patch with houserules might be nice to have.

[Calth]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I don't have the book, but from other threads discussing it, yes, there are at least two.

One just adds stuff ala the Big 6 as you level (starting at level 3 and eventually, at level 20 or so, coming to a +5 bonus to one weapon, one piece of armor, a similar Deflection and natural armor bonus, and an equal bonus to saves, and bonuses to stats). This one comes with halved Wealth by Level.

Another adds bonuses to existing items based on their value, so a Cloak of Elvenkind would also add a Resistance bonus to Saves and so on. I believe this one just adds to the price of all such items.

This is pretty much right.

Ill leave the automatic aside, as you pretty much covered it. The only thing I would really mention is that the automatic chart literally takes half your WBL and buys the big 6 items out of it. I liked it, but talked with Mark in the other thread about options to spend over half you WBL, as many martials will want to. He said he has a second chart he will be releasing on the 29th.

The other system is called the innate bonus system. First, the belt and body items slots are combined, as well as the head and headband.

Next, when you get an magic item that falls into one of the big 6 slots (neck, shoulders, belt/body, head/headband, ring) you look at the item price. Each of these slots has price categories corresponding to the prices of the corresponding big 6 items. Take necks for examples: a +1 amulet of natural armor costs 2000 gp, a +2 8000gp, +3 18000 gp, +4 32000 gp, +5 50000 gp. You add the price of the corresponding category to the base item to get a final price.

So lets say you want to buy an Amulet of Spell Cunning. This item costs 10000 gp, which is more than 8000 gp but less than 18000 gp, which corresponds to a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor. You then add 8000 gp to the cost of the Amulet of Spell Cunning, yielding 18000 gp as a final price for neck slot item that provides the benefits of both an Amulet of Spell Cunning and a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor.

Basically, you are forced to add a specific secondary ability into all head/body/neck/shoulder magical items, but pay only a 1X modifier instead of a 1.5X modifier.

Arms and Armor are a bit different. You buy them with special abilities worth +bonus costs, but not enhancement bonuses. You then double the bonus of the special abilities you buy, get the new price, and get a weapon or armor that is a +x item with X worth of special abilities. So if you want a keen holy longsword, you have to pay for a +6 weapon (keen is a +1 weapon, holy +2, giving +3 x 2 = +6) and get a +3 holy keen longsword.

This system, as mentioned in the book, only works if you are playing above standard WBL, as otherwise you cant afford to buy sufficiently expensive items to get the innate bonuses you need.

[Mark Seifter]

Calth wrote:

This system, as mentioned in the book, only works if you are playing above standard WBL, as otherwise you cant afford to buy sufficiently expensive items to get the innate bonuses you need.

That's pretty close but not quite what the book says; rather, it says that one of the reasons you might not want to use automatic progression is that you are playing a game that is already balanced around being above or below standard WBL (automatic progression assumes standard, so it might not progress at the pace you want). The innate bonus system works fine for standard WBL, I just like automatic progression better if you can swing it, since it makes the characters innately awesome rather than their items.

[Calth]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Calth wrote:

This system, as mentioned in the book, only works if you are playing above standard WBL, as otherwise you cant afford to buy sufficiently expensive items to get the innate bonuses you need.

That's pretty close but not quite what the book says; rather, it says that one of the reasons you might not want to use automatic progression is that you are playing a game that is already balanced around being above or below standard WBL (automatic progression assumes standard, so it might not progress at the pace you want). The innate bonus system works fine for standard WBL, I just like automatic progression better if you can swing it, since it makes the characters innately awesome rather than their items.

I guess I was mainly going off this quote:

However, those rules
don’t work as well as the innate item bonuses system does
in games that include more magic items than is assumed
in the Core Rulebook. In addition, this system helps those
GMs who prefer to emphasize the wonder and power of
magic items.

On second reading I see what you mean, but I first read it to suggest that it works better above WBL. Which I think is fair. I, personally, would never want to run innate bonuses with standard WBL, as you are forced to spend 75% to 100% of standard WBL to maintain the assumed big six progression. Basically, it significantly harms buying items outside of the big 6 slots. I am also not a fan because it makes a character forced to buy items they don't necessarily want just to maintain innate progression.

[Mark Seifter]

Calth wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Calth wrote:

This system, as mentioned in the book, only works if you are playing above standard WBL, as otherwise you cant afford to buy sufficiently expensive items to get the innate bonuses you need.

That's pretty close but not quite what the book says; rather, it says that one of the reasons you might not want to use automatic progression is that you are playing a game that is already balanced around being above or below standard WBL (automatic progression assumes standard, so it might not progress at the pace you want). The innate bonus system works fine for standard WBL, I just like automatic progression better if you can swing it, since it makes the characters innately awesome rather than their items.

I guess I was mainly going off this quote:

However, those rules
don’t work as well as the innate item bonuses system does
in games that include more magic items than is assumed
in the Core Rulebook. In addition, this system helps those
GMs who prefer to emphasize the wonder and power of
magic items.

On second reading I see what you mean, but I first read it to suggest that it works better above WBL. Which I think is fair. I, personally, would never want to run innate bonuses with standard WBL, as you are forced to spend 75% to 100% of standard WBL to maintain the assumed big six progression. Basically, it significantly harms buying items outside of the big 6 slots. I am also not a fan because it makes a character forced to buy items they don't necessarily want just to maintain innate progression.

Yeah, it does lower the relative buying power for things like metamagic rods (which are underpriced anyway), while making relatively things easier for martials, who always get something else they want very much (weapon and armor special abilities) as the second ability when buying weapons and armor. It's certainly also true that it brings some items into the forefront that are pretty rarely chosen and makes them much more attractive (there's some weird crown item in UE that I've never seen before but is one of the only items that gives you +6 to all mental ability scores now, so maybe it'll become a thing in high level games using that variant!).

[Charon's Little Helper]

Calth wrote:

I am also not a fan because it makes a character forced to buy items they don't necessarily want just to maintain innate progression.

All combatants are basically forced to buy them anyway unless they have some way to get the bonus without the item. (Clerics with the resistance domain/ monks with barskin power etc) So - with those few exceptions - it's a mild nerf to full casters. (though they generally get all but the weapon slot, though perhaps a point or two behind martials)

Darn!

[Calth]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Calth wrote:

I am also not a fan because it makes a character forced to buy items they don't necessarily want just to maintain innate progression.

All combatants are basically forced to buy them anyway unless they have some way to get the bonus without the item. (Clerics with the resistance domain/ monks with barskin power etc) So - with those few exceptions - it's a mild nerf to full casters. (though they generally get all but the weapon slot, though perhaps a point or two behind martials)

Darn!

That's not what I was referring too. Lets take something like the Bane Baldric. Its a 10000 gp body slot item that's pretty nice(arguably best in slot) for inquisitors. With the innate system, that grants +2 to two physical scores. If the inquisitor ever wants to improve his physical enhancement bonus, he is forced to buy an item that is worse for him than the Bane Baldric just to get those assumed boosts.

I am extremely not a fan of that.

Edit: Or even worse. Lets say you want +6 to all stats. Guess what, you have to buy a Bodywrap of mighty strike +7. No other options. So what if you don't use natural attacks/unarmed strikes and its completely useless to you.

[AndIMustMask]

a thought occurs to me--couldnt one pair this system with teh custom magic item creation rules?

i.e. you wear that bane baldric, and when the time comes and you feel you'll need it to up its game to stay good, you tack on some extra effects to it until it reaches the appropriate value breakpoint to gain the next progression bonus.

[Dekalinder]

So, from what i'm reading, in order to get the +5 deflection from a ring of deviation, you actually need to buy a different ring that cost at least 50k, on top of witch you add the 50k needed for the deflection ring, for a total of 100K gp to get the AC you wanted, basically being forced to spend extra 50K you might have not wanted to.

[Calth]

AndIMustMask wrote:

a thought occurs to me--couldnt one pair this system with teh custom magic item creation rules?

i.e. you wear that bane baldric, and when the time comes and you feel you'll need it to up its game to stay good, you tack on some extra effects to it until it reaches the appropriate value breakpoint to gain the next progression bonus.

You can, but at that point, whats the real point of this system. You can already fold the big 6 into other items with custom magic items. Being forced to resort to doing that anyway defeats the purpose.

[Calth]

Dekalinder wrote:

So, from what i'm reading, in order to get the +5 deflection from a ring of deviation, you actually need to buy a different ring that cost at least 50k, on top of witch you add the 50k needed for the deflection ring, for a total of 100K gp to get the AC you wanted, basically being forced to spend extra 50K you might have not wanted to.

Correct. For rings it does note that players should be able to get a second ring at normal price, since the bonuses stack, but acknowledges that it creates a bit of a bookkeeping problem.

[Deadmanwalking]

AndIMustMask wrote:

actually homebrewed a similar idea myself for a home game:** spoiler omitted **...

I did something similar a while back as well.

[Mudfoot]

Surely all the compulsory bit can be avoided by just allowing the Big 6 qualities to be added to other items at 1x price, rather than 1.5x. Then you can get what you want without being forced to get what you don't.

[Mark Seifter]

Mudfoot wrote:

Surely all the compulsory bit can be avoided by just allowing the Big 6 qualities to be added to other items at 1x price, rather than 1.5x. Then you can get what you want without being forced to get what you don't.

The problem is that this doesn't really mitigate Big 6 frenzy, as characters would then find items that cost as little as possible and add massive Big 6 abilities on top. The idea (and as I said, I still find automatic progression more elegant overall) is that the non-negotiable cost requirement frees you from temptation to do that.

That said, there's a slightly different solutionto the bane baldric problem Calth proposed: If there's truly an item in that slot that is so powerful, that it is more powerful than the items that cost more money, the easy solution is to do it similarly to what Mudfoot says here but slightly differently; rule that you can choose to increase the price of the base item in order to get more Big 6. So with the bane baldric as an example, you could increase the cost of the baldric from 10,000 gp to 16,000 gp to get a +4 enhancement to a stat for a total of 32,000. If, as proposed by Calth, this is a superior power level to buying an actual 16k item and getting a +4 enhancement bonus for 32k, even for the same price, then it makes sense that it should cost at least as much.

If anyone does this, I sincerely beg that you tell me how high some of your players are willing to go on certain items; this is actually a super-good way to find items that were underpriced to begin with!

[Insain Dragoon]

What's stopping you from using your half WBL to just buy something?

One example my friend immediately came up with is "I will dual wield and use my money to upgrade one weapon and the automatic system to upgrade the other! That way I wont have to wield under enhanced weapons!"

Edit: this is a good thing.

[Mark Seifter]

Note: We're now back to automatic progression. Everyone remember that there are two different systems in this thread.

The system assumes the non-existence of those items. You can always houserule them back in.

[Insain Dragoon]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Note: We're now back to automatic progression. Everyone remember that there are two different systems in this thread.

The system assumes the non-existence of those items. You can always houserule them back in.

Yeah, it makes more sense for those items to exist for anyone willing to dump all the money into them. Otherwise styles like 2 weapon fighting maintain the status quo of being a terrible option.

[kestral287]

You could easily edit the system to be automatic progression with any weapon you pick up. That would handle TWF rather nicely.

[Calth]

kestral287 wrote:

You could easily edit the system to be automatic progression with any weapon you pick up. That would handle TWF rather nicely.

Automatic progression is not tied to a specific weapon, and there is a TWF option(basically you get two weapons 1 or 2 bonus behind a single weapon). Anything higher than that breaks the math of the automatic progression. The best(closest to standard WBL progression) alteration Ive found is to let you buy weapons with special abilities at a cost of (bonus^2)*6000 and have them not count against your automatic bonus (the base system lets you buy specially abilities, but the also take up automatic progression). This is since at level 18 the weapon progression caps out at +5, and accounts for 50k gp of a characters WBL. (If you price out the automatic progression a character has at any given level it really does ~50% of the standard WBL so adding to the system adds to standard WBL.)

So if you want a +10 weapon you need to account for 150k gp, which my formula gives. I would then let you buy back gp using legendary boosts at level 19 and 20 if desired. You can spend boosts to increase your automatic attunement pool by 1, I would simply have these refund gp. I.e., if you have a +10 weapon and choose the first boost, you would be refunded 6000 gp. The second would give 18000 gp, which comes from the 24000 gp cost of +2 special ability weapon - the 6000 gp cost of a +1 special ability weapon. And so on.

[Mark Seifter]

Calth, did you see what made it into the blog today?

[Calth]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Calth, did you see what made it into the blog today?

No I hadn't, but that does indeed prove that math works. If you have the same numbers and the same equations, you get the same results. But I do thank you for posting that Mark.

[ZanThrax]

Mark Seifter wrote:

If anyone does this, I sincerely beg that you tell me how high some of your players are willing to go on certain items; this is actually a super-good way to find items that were underpriced to begin with!

It would certainly be good to find underpriced items, but I don't think the bane baldric is one of them. It's most useful at levels where that 10K is a very large investment (7th through 11th - where it lets the Inquisitor get 4d6 bane damage and have enough rounds to reliably use it). By level 12, when the cost is no longer hard to deal with, the bonus is no longer all that important; a high level inquisitor isn't going to run out Bane rounds anyhow.

[Mark Seifter]

ZanThrax wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

If anyone does this, I sincerely beg that you tell me how high some of your players are willing to go on certain items; this is actually a super-good way to find items that were underpriced to begin with!

It would certainly be good to find underpriced items, but I don't think the bane baldric is one of them. It's most useful at levels where that 10K is a very large investment (7th through 11th - where it lets the Inquisitor get 4d6 bane damage and have enough rounds to reliably use it). By level 12, when the cost is no longer hard to deal with, the bonus is no longer all that important; a high level inquisitor isn't going to run out Bane rounds anyhow.

By the way, I think you're right that it very much outlives its usefulness once you have greater bane; I used it as an example because Calth did.

[Calth]

Mark Seifter wrote:

ZanThrax wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

If anyone does this, I sincerely beg that you tell me how high some of your players are willing to go on certain items; this is actually a super-good way to find items that were underpriced to begin with!

It would certainly be good to find underpriced items, but I don't think the bane baldric is one of them. It's most useful at levels where that 10K is a very large investment (7th through 11th - where it lets the Inquisitor get 4d6 bane damage and have enough rounds to reliably use it). By level 12, when the cost is no longer hard to deal with, the bonus is no longer all that important; a high level inquisitor isn't going to run out Bane rounds anyhow.

By the way, I think you're right that it very much outlives its usefulness once you have greater bane; I used it as an example because Calth did.

And my example is messed up cause the baldric is a chest piece oops, but moving on.

Also, finally parsed out that table Mark. The capacity thing is a great idea, it was what was keeping me from really finding a fair solution.

To note, the cost of a weapon using the new table with an automatic progression is:

(Sum of the enhancement bonus equivalent of special abilities you want + the highest level of attunement(enhancement bonus) you want to be able to utilize)^2 * 2000 gp - (attunement bonus)^2 * 2000 gp.

For example, if you want a keen holy weapon usable with up to +4 enhancement bonus of the automatic progression without sacrificing special abilities the cost is:

(3+4)^2 * 2000 gp - 4^2 * 2000 gp = 98000 gp - 32000 gp = 66000 gp.

Which if you go to the blog corresponds to the entry in row 3, column 4.

[Xexyz]

I'm really interested in using the Automatic Bonus Progression; I'm mulling converting my existing campaign to use the system but I'll have to get player buy-in and then will have to adjust a bunch of NPCs.

I ran some numbers and even with WBL cut in half, PC equivalent WBL (new WBL + value of ABP stats if you bought the magic items that grant them) is in excess than standard wealth for every level past 3. The average EqvWBL over StdWBL on a level-for-level basis is about 9.5%.

Although characters are locked into when they receive their bonuses, there is one part that allows some customization not normally possible with standard stat items: At several levels when you get enhancement bonuses to your stats you have options for an uneven stat distribution. For example, at 13th level you get +4 to one physical/mental stat and +2 to another, which isn't possible using standard items. At 15th level you can divide your bonus to your mental stats as either +6/+2 or +4/+4.

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

I think one of the biggest benefits of the ABP system are for campaigns (like mine) which make heavy use of NPC antagonists with class levels. With the regular system it's difficult to gear them up according to the WBL guidelines without inundating the PCs with magic items, the majority of which would just be sold anyway. It also makes them tougher since they'll be getting the equivalent of gear they couldn't normal afford from NPC wealth guidelines.

The one change I would probably make is to not eliminate the pure stat boosting items so that certain extreme wealthy characters (nobles, rich merchants) would be able to buy their stats higher with their money. I don't think this would be particularly game breaking since pure stat boosting items would be much rarer and PCs would be unlikely to use them anyway.

[Kudaku]

Xexyz wrote:

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise comes into some extra cash. It can feel a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well and it's a fun RP challenge to come up with good ways for him to earn the money. :)

[Calth]

Kudaku wrote:

Xexyz wrote:

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

Bladebound magus(and maybe one other archetype) is the only case where its truly a problem. With Paladins, you just let them apply their bond on top of the automatic enhancement, just like you would if they had a magic weapon to begin with. We have a bladebound magus in the group where we just adopted the automatic progression, and our solution was to undo the arcane pool nerf of the archetype. Basically turning bladebound into an arcana rather than an archetype.

[Xexyz]

Kudaku wrote:

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

Yeah, one of the PCs in my game is a bladebound magus, and I was thinking of ways to compensate him. The blackblade still gets its enhancement progression faster than ABP at lower levels, so there's that.

At first I thought I'd let him add his weapon ABP to his arcane pool enhancement, but then I realized he'd be able to give his character a vorpal weapon at level 9 - the PC's current level - and I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

I'm mulling just adding the ABP weapon bonus as extra points to his character's arcane pool.

[Calth]

Xexyz wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

Yeah, one of the PCs in my game is a bladebound magus, and I was thinking of ways to compensate him. The blackblade still gets its enhancement progression faster than ABP at lower levels, so there's that.

At first I thought I'd let him add his weapon ABP to his arcane pool enhancement, but then I realized he'd be able to give his character a vorpal weapon at level 9 - the PC's current level - and I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

I'm mulling just adding the ABP weapon bonus as extra points to his character's arcane pool.

As I said in my previous post, the solution my group came up with was to change the magus's arcane pool progression back to 1/2 level instead of 1/3 level. Basically Bladebound becomes an alternate familiar arcana.

[kestral287]

Kudaku wrote:

Xexyz wrote:

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

My solution to this, if I do wind up adopting ABP, is to just not use it for weapons/armor.

Pulling it in for the headband/belt/ring/amulet/cloak is enough for me, and the weapon and armor aspects of the system are by far the most likely to trip the system up, both by being more complicated and by having the largest number of characters who don't use them-- Monks, arcane casters who don't like Haramakis/Silken Ceremonial (or have GMs who don't like it), all Magi but especially Bladebound, a handful of other weapon-buffing classes... they're out there. By contrast, the number of good abilities that interfere with the other five of the Big Six are tiny, and the best of them (Qinggong Barkskin) is largely a thing so they can wear another Amulet anyway.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, the Paladin's bond can still be used for Weapon Qualities like Flaming or Holy. That's cool.

That's what I'd do with the Black Blade as well, personally. That sounds more fun and flavorful than the gold option.

[Prince Yyrkoon]

kestral287 wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

Xexyz wrote:

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

My solution to this, if I do wind up adopting ABP, is to just not use it for weapons/armor.

Pulling it in for the headband/belt/ring/amulet/cloak is enough for me, and the weapon and armor aspects of the system are by far the most likely to trip the system up, both by being more complicated and by having the largest number of characters who don't use them-- Monks, arcane casters who don't like Haramakis/Silken Ceremonial (or have GMs who don't like it), all Magi but especially Bladebound, a handful of other weapon-buffing classes... they're out there. By contrast, the number of good abilities that interfere with the other five of the Big Six are tiny, and the best of them (Qinggong Barkskin) is largely a thing so they can wear another Amulet anyway.

To be fair, you can add the armor bonus to regular clothes/robes, and the interaction between weapon buffing class features and this system really shouldn't be any different from normal.

The bladebound is a bit of a sticking point, admittedly, but I think turning into an arcana instead of an archetype, or just refunding the cost of a +x weapon are both viable solutions.

[Epic Meepo]

If I were a bladebound magus, I'd be thrilled with redundant free weapon enhancements. I could have a scaling magic sword and a scaling magic bow.

[Mark Seifter]

Epic Meepo wrote:

If I were a bladebound magus, I'd be thrilled with redundant free weapon enhancements. I could have a scaling magic sword and a scaling magic bow.

And without needing to split the bonus either. Score! If you're a Dex magus, you'll also be pretty OK with a bow.

[kestral287]

Epic Meepo wrote:

If I were a bladebound magus, I'd be thrilled with redundant free weapon enhancements. I could have a scaling magic sword and a scaling magic bow.

Eh. I built a Magus that intentionally lacks ranged attacks for one game (she'll eventually pick up attack spells with a decent range. First one is at level seven). Haven't wanted a bow yet.

To me it's less "Bladebound" and more "Magus" though. A lot of the classes who can buff their weapons have some sort of incentive to not do that (Warpriest has a lot of swift actions to deal with, Paladin buffing is a standard action that they can tag out for another ability anyway, Arcanist is a standard action and is, well, the Arcanist). But the Magus kind of banks on that trick, and having that ability eventually become useful as "this is a thing you'll eventually use to make your niche item useful". That'll eventually become true in any system, to a point, but well... it's easy for even a standard Magus to leave their weapon at +4 and spend another 168,000 gold elsewhere.

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

My table decided not to use Automatic Bonus Progression for the ongoing Runelords campaign, but I am turning the Big Six into Scaling Items. And I'm toying around with building rules for a Fate/Stay campaign afterwards, and Automatic Bonus Progression for Servants just makes too much sense to not use. Their weapons (and maybe armor) are distinct and special things, though, so I'm exploring options on that front. Scaling items are at the top of my list there.

[Some Other Guy]

I'm curious how this should interact with racial hit dice from companions that now would have no access to these items.

[Mark Seifter]

kestral287 wrote:

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

It's actually in the game already:

Magic Vestment wrote:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

[LazarX]

Mark Seifter wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

It's actually in the game already:

Magic Vestment wrote:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

I take it pants are sufficient, if you're going for the Seltyiel fan service look?

[Charon's Little Helper]

LazarX wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

It's actually in the game already:

Magic Vestment wrote:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

I take it pants are sufficient, if you're going for the Seltyiel fan service look?

What about a loincloth for the Tarzan vibe?

[Epic Meepo]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

It's actually in the game already:

Magic Vestment wrote:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

I take it pants are sufficient, if you're going for the Seltyiel fan service look?

What about a loincloth for the Tarzan vibe?

And don't forget chainmail bikinis.

[Kalindlara]

Epic Meepo wrote:

And don't forget chainmail bikinis.

I just used a haramaki. :)

[Prince Yyrkoon]

Ahem: Orcish Battle Thong.

That is all.

[Mark Seifter]

You guys never cease to make me chuckle. Feel free to add affinity to any and all of the things you've listed here; the true power of Unchained is the power of flexibility, after all!

[kestral287]

Mark Seifter wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

I also frankly really don't like the clothing-with-armor-bonuses thing. I just... can't make that one make sense in my mind.

It's actually in the game already:

Magic Vestment wrote:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

Only in that instance though (and Blood Armor, which, to me, actually does make sense for the clothing-getting-armor-bonuses thing). As a general rule, it's my understanding that you can't enchant your Hulk Pants and still pick up, oh, Monk's Wis-to-AC?

*Shrug*

I mean, if somebody wants to flavor their Plate Mail as a (very heavy) Orcish Battle Thong, go for it. But at the point that we're talking mechanics, I'm uncomfortable with either significantly buffing some classes that are known for having either very good or very bad ACs (Monk, Wizard/Sorc/Arcanist) or having the aforementioned classes get nothing.

[Mark Seifter]

I think I'm not understanding your thrust correctly. Those enhancements on clothing are worth the exact same GP value as bracers of armor, which all those aforementioned classes can use, so I'm not seeing how they are being buffed by this. I'm likely missing a crucial aspect here.

[kestral287]

Mark Seifter wrote:

I think I'm not understanding your thrust correctly. Those enhancements on clothing are worth the exact same GP value as bracers of armor, which all those aforementioned classes can use, so I'm not seeing how they are being buffed by this. I'm likely missing a crucial aspect here.

Probably that I don't really consider the Bracers as good picks. Which might be an issue on my end more than anything else, but I don't think anyone in my group seriously considers them. At most, we occasionally talk about them for giving the Wizard et al. an ability like Determination (which isn't actually a RAW-legal use, but hey).

For Monks I think this is because I find their AC winds up fine without it. For Wizards this is because for a long while they'll have a basic spell to do it better, and by the time that's true they should no longer need it-- so I feel at least that you're more-or-less forcing that group of classes into picking things they otherwise wouldn't.

Same basic issue with weapons; you wind up pushing a weapon onto a Wizard that... otherwise would rather just have more Pearls of Power.

To an extent we have the same issue with how the ability scores are distributed, since everybody will wind up with 'throwaway' points eventually. I like that it's mandated that everybody boost two scores, though, because to me that's just a fair buff to the less SAD classes. And really, everybody can find something to do with two attributes on each side (the third not so much; I'm debating whether it's worthwhile to change the base options to cap out at 6/6/0 or 6/4/4 instead).

Don't get me wrong. I like the system, and I will be making use of it in my next campaign. But I'm probably going to play with the Scaling Magic Items rules a bit and slot them in for arms and armor instead, and if somebody doesn't want a scaling item they can just have some more cash instead (probably somewhat less than the item is worth all things considered, but close).

[David knott 242]

Do cohorts, eidolons, animal companions, and familiars all count as "characters" for automatic bonus progression?

I am suddenly picturing a lot of clothed animal companions and familiars (for the armor bonus).