Hi all
I understand that when casting a spell that targets a person/creature, the caster needs to be able to see the target, but I'm not sure if this restriction is also true for area effect spells, e.g. can a fireball can be cast from outside a darkness spell right in to the middle of it or can it only be cast up to the edge? Would there be some sort of concealment miss chance in that example?
Thanks.
You don't need to be able to see the point of origin for the fireball, but you must have "line of effect" to it:
PRD wrote: Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
Basically, that means you can choose any point of origin if you would have been able to see it in broad daylight with no concealment-factors.
PRD/Aiming a Spell wrote: You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. and
Fireball wrote: You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. So yes, I'd say you could cast a spell into the darkness, and hope that there isn't a barrier to stop your spell.
Edit: ninja'd by and complementing Are...
How about targeting spells that don't, like fireball, include something shooting from the caster to the target location. For example, can a spellcaster cast an unholy blight into a neighboring room that he/she is familiar with, even if she can't see the room at the time of casting?
For what reason can the caster not see the room?
If it's dark in there, yes he/she can.
If it's because there's no windows and the door is closed, then no, because she has no line of effect to a space in said room.
It's because it is down a passage that has some curves that affect line of sight. The rulebook says, "Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range." So by that logic it seems like a spellcaster could easily "define" a location in the next room even if he can't see it. Even though there's no line of sight, there's no actual physical barrier down the passageway.
Voomer wrote: How about targeting spells that don't, like fireball, include something shooting from the caster to the target location. For example, can a spellcaster cast an unholy blight into a neighboring room that he/she is familiar with, even if she can't see the room at the time of casting? Hmm....confusing...looks like no, but maybe.
Magic PRD wrote: Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect
But, also
Magic PRD wrote: Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
Finally,
Magic PRD wrote:
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
And for a difference of the two, look at the spells Unholy Blight and Fog Cloud for comparison, you'll note the Unholy Blight specifies an "Area" while Fog Cloud specifies "Effect".
So...from my readings, it looks like you need line of effect for spells, unless they are an "Effect: Spread", in which case you just need to see the starting point, and if the effect would move into the room you don't need line of effect on that.
Provided you had line of effect to a point that would be within 20ft radius of the room, the Blight would roll into the room.
That seems right, and an interesting observation about spread spells. Am I right that because channeling is a burst effect it could penetrate another room through an open door but only affect targets that are directly in front of the opening, rather than to the side? I guess it's just a question of whether the target has total cover from the point of origin? Sorry if this is a really basic question.
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