All,
I am trying to find a god or an empyreal lord that is nice. And good-aligned. Maybe even motivated. But not flaky or chaotic. But not too stern. Not a zealot. Think Gandalf the GREY or maybe the nice sister hag/witch from Spirited Away.
I had hoped for Andoletta, since her brief entry in Lords of Purity made me think of my grandmother. But further research shows that her creator wrote her with a mean Catholic nun in mind. Sadly, not the comforting figure I am looking for.
The dwarven marriage goddess seems ok, but i was looking for a god that doesnt feel race-specific.
Anybody like that out there in Golarion?
Thanks!
So you want a Neutral Good deity?
Okay, someone get the list, right now!
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Nice, good, but not flaky or chaotic, and not stern either. Sounds like you're talking about Shelyn. She's also not race specific since even storm giants worship her and her dad was a cosmic wolf god.
My problem with Shelyn is that her portfolio and her followers make her come across as flaky, or at the very least, focused on areas of concern I find to be a bit too .... I dunno. Weaksauce or something.
I keep looking at Empyreal Lords since they are usually so ill-defined that it leaves room for me to fill in the blanks. That kinda backfired with Andoletta.
Hmm.
Thanks for any replies. I may be too picky to find a match. I will try to consider options presented, however.
Thanks again!
Sarenrae. She's about redemption. And the sun. And stomping face when needed.
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My problem with Shelyn is that her portfolio and her followers make her come across as flaky, or at the very least, focused on areas of concern I find to be a bit too .... I dunno. Weaksauce or something.
I keep looking at Empyreal Lords since they are usually so ill-defined that it leaves room for me to fill in the blanks. That kinda backfired with Andoletta.
Hmm.
Thanks for any replies. I may be too picky to find a match. I will try to consider options presented, however.
Thanks again!
Shelyn does the whole love, compassion, inner beauty, and finding one's bliss routine until you start hurting others and you don't knock if off when she asks nicely. Then she whips out her glaive and beats you senseless, all the while crying that this hurts her more than it hurts you. Ask Zon-Kuthon, her brother. Try being a dark broody god of torture and pain when you get your ass whupped by the goddess of love and beauty. It's like Pinhead trying to keep his rep after being beat up by Polychrome.
So basically a light frothy shell of weaksauce hiding an iron beatdown stick.
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You sir, just made me want to make a Paladin of Shelyn.
You should check out Qi Zhong. He seems to fit what your after at least personality wise.
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I think Shelyn is the bomb diggity.
Weaksauce? Ask every knight who has tied a favor from his lady before destroying an opponent in combat. Ask every hero that faced a dragon to win a prince or princess' heart. Love and beauty aren't weak sauce ideals, they are the heart of goodness itself.
I always pictured Andoletta as Granny Weatherwax myself. Additionally there's nothing to prevent a skewed interpretation of any god/goddess.
Sarenrae is too much of a zealot for me; or too many of her followers are. Too much like my daily life. ;)
As for Shelyn, I dont mean that she is weaksauce, so much as I meant that her portfolio is. Love, beauty, poetry and art (or whatever) are things I cant really get too excited about. Plus, the whole "flowers of peace; or else glaive to the face" reminds me too much of what I dont like about Sarenrae.
I have no idea who Granny Weatherwax is.
As for Iomedae, she is ok, but her portfolio and attitude are a bit too rigid for me.
I will look into Qi Zhong.
But yeah, I have always struggled with the non-evil Pathfinder gods. I can usually find plenty of deities in a setting that have a workable vibe for me, but its like the various people who designed the Golarion gods happened to really like the 3 or 4 pet peeves I have about deities, and build at least one of those traits into most of the non-evil main gods. Just bad luck I guess. :)
A few of the lesser or obscure ones, and several of the Empyreal lords, do seem to work for me tho. I was hoping to discover some I had overlooked. No matter how many times I crawl through the wiki, I come across a cool/obscure one I have missed.
As an aside, whats the diff in the two wiki sites? Pathfinder.wikia vs pathfinderwiki?
Thanks for your replies.
Pathfinderwiki is the correct one. I think they migrated from pathfinder.wikia when wikia went crazy.
Have you heard about Jesus?
All,
I am trying to find a god or an empyreal lord that is nice. And good-aligned. Maybe even motivated. But not flaky or chaotic. But not too stern. Not a zealot. Think Gandalf the GREY or maybe the nice sister hag/witch from Spirited Away.
I had hoped for Andoletta, since her brief entry in Lords of Purity made me think of my grandmother. But further research shows that her creator wrote her with a mean Catholic nun in mind. Sadly, not the comforting figure I am looking for.
The dwarven marriage goddess seems ok, but i was looking for a god that doesnt feel race-specific.
Anybody like that out there in Golarion?
Thanks!
Can I interest you in a Ragathiel?
Shelyn is definitely one of the most awesome goddesses of love I've ever seen in any setting. Sure, her clerics may ramble on about the complexity of a mural or gush about a particularly lavish opera skillfully done, but if you don't heed their warnings they will open a very lovely can of whoopass on you.
Sarenrae is also pretty cool, and she always struck me as varying depending on geography. In many Keleshite nations she is definitely portrayed as more aggressive, even harsh, but head up into other nations and she seems to be far more relaxed, or at least her clergy are, focusing on redemption more.
Erastil doesn't strike me as flaky, or even always stern. He is incredibly old fashioned, kind of like that great uncle who seems like a kick ass old school cowboy, but then he blurts out something at the dinner table that's just embarrassing especially to the younger crowd. His focus on helping family and community first might seem a touch restraining I suppose. But his clergy strike me as pretty 'common sense no frills'.
Ditto Eradtil.
I like Iomedae and Abadar as well. Or at least the good side of Abadar.
I keep looking at Empyreal Lords since they are usually so ill-defined that it leaves room for me to fill in the blanks. That kinda backfired with Andoletta.
[..]
But yeah, I have always struggled with the non-evil Pathfinder gods. I can usually find plenty of deities in a setting that have a workable vibe for me, but its like the various people who designed the Golarion gods happened to really like the 3 or 4 pet peeves I have about deities, and build at least one of those traits into most of the non-evil main gods. Just bad luck I guess. :)
I kind of agree with you; I find that the more I read about Golarion deities, the more gimmicky or specific it seems that their doctrines are. For example, I liked the idea of Erastil as a god of hunting and family, but then they came out with an article saying that he thinks women shouldn't be priests, etc.
So I stopped reading those kind of explanatory articles. :-)
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Have you heard about Jesus?
I though he was Yahweh's GMPC...
Cheapy ... Wikia went crazy? So i should stick to pathfinderwiki then?
LazarX ... I dont reject NG, I just dont like the fluff of Shelyn's portfolio. I dont mind her love aspect, but i dont like the art/music/poets stuff. I am good with the Love stuff. I am not looking for a violent deity. If anything, the "sweet and nice, until you disagree or prove a problem, then its burn in hell time" is not something I consider "good" or "stable".
Jinx ... I kinda almost like Ragathiel, but I dont favor Law, and he is a bit too martial and about righteous destruction. I do like the chastity part of his portfolio tho.
Ridge ... Erastil is more lawful than I enjoy. I do find him somewhat tolerable. In favt of the major good aligned and/or human gods, i find him the most palatable. But somehow, he doesnt quite fit. Close tho.
Anyway, I do think Qi Zhong is cool. I like his portfolios and interests. But for a Varisian Human, since Qi Zhong is a Tian Xia god, he is culturally as awkward a choice for a varisian human to worship as would be a dwarf or elf god. I do like him. I also kinda like Ylimancha and Soralyon. Soralyon has monuments in the portfolio list, which is unexciting, but otherwise seems ok.
Anyway, thanks for the additional comments. They are giving me some thought catalyat action.
Have you heard about Jesus?I though he was Yahweh's GMPC...
I started to deny that, but then I realized you are right. At least he didn't make him a Marty Stu.
Hogarth .... Oh yeah. I forgot about Erastil's mild misogyny, but I had heard about it. Maybe that was subconsciously affecting my (dis)comfort level regarding him. :)
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I had hoped for Andoletta, since her brief entry in Lords of Purity made me think of my grandmother. But further research shows that her creator wrote her with a mean Catholic nun in mind. Sadly, not the comforting figure I am looking for.
Being the creator you're likely talking about, I wouldn't have given Andoletta a good alignment if she didn't have grandmotherly aspects. I want her to be the tough as nails nun type who doesn't brook a lot of nonsense and will rap the knuckles of a misbehaving child (or follower) but who is still the first one there to bandage a skinned knee, scare off a bully, and who has pie made before anyone else is awake on Sunday.
Now run all of that through the deity kaleidoscope. That's he schtick. But if that's still not doing it for ya, you'll get all the facts on her and dozens others early next year with Chronicle of the Righteous.
I kind of agree with you; I find that the more I read about Golarion deities, the more gimmicky or specific it seems that their doctrines are. For example, I liked the idea of Erastil as a god of hunting and family, but then they came out with an article saying that he thinks women shouldn't be priests, etc.
So I stopped reading those kind of explanatory articles. :-)
My personal two cents here, but isn't that kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water?
I'm not defending the Erastil thing. That was an ill-conceived design choice that took a step too far into the real world. I among others had the opportunity to catch and change it, but fell down on that. But it is what it is (until it isn't any more; which is a matter in the offing. I like to think we cop to our mistakes).
I'm also not trying to criticize anyone's reading choices. It's your hobby, it's your game, it's your character, by all means, read what you enjoy and include what you want.
But-and I feel like I can't type this enough-if you don't use something we've written exactly how we wrote it, if you don't 100% adhere to canon, if you decide that this and this works for you, but that and that doesn't: GREAT! We want you to tinker, we want you to kit-bash, we want these rules and articles to fuel creativity and collaboration. Pathfinder, like all RPGs, is not a form of media creators create and consumers consume, it's an entirely, endlessly creative medium. So if you want to give Desna a duck head and have Gozreh grant spells specific to Norgorber's faith, by all means, do what works for you and your group. I PROMISE that no one from Paizo will come to your home and tell you you're having bad-wrong-fun.
You're the GM for your game, you're the player behind your character, you're the great collector. I'd hate to think that you're missing out on something cool--of which there's been tons!--because one piece didn't fit into the puzzle of your character or campaign. Additionally, we keep all of our rulebooks divorced from our world, so if you want to create something entirely new, that's also always an option.
Again, not trying to be critical, not an attack, but something I know we don't state anywhere in print and I hope everyone knows.
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Hogarth .... Oh yeah. I forgot about Erastil's mild misogyny, but I had heard about it. Maybe that was subconsciously affecting my (dis)comfort level regarding him. :)
My suggestion on this would be that if that's the only part of his faith that doesn't do it for you... well, I wouldn't even consider that a part of his faith (it's mentioned in one of the numerous books that talk about him). When we have the opportunity the revisit Erastil in detail, we'll be discussing how his faith favors competency and ass kickers and those willing to go out and defend their communities--that's the focus. Maybe some congregations have cliques that have taken that a distinctly "good ol'boy route," but that's not something hardwired into his faith. In some places it might go the other direction, but in most it's much more even.
Because ultimately, he's a @#$%in' GOD. He's immortal and infinitely mutable, what does he care about the shape of the tangled bits mortals are forced to propagate with?
(Also, on a more personal note: Seriously? A dear-headed dude with sexual hangups? I'm not buying it.)
My personal two cents here, but isn't that kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water?
[..]
But-and I feel like I can't type this enough-if you don't use something we've written exactly how we wrote it, if you don't 100% adhere to canon, if you decide that this and this works for you, but that and that doesn't: GREAT!
I don't get it -- are you saying it's bad that I make up whatever I want instead of using what's in the articles, or are you saying that it's great that I do that?
I'm confused...
Just to clarify my comment earlier: I find that Golarion's gods try a bit too hard to have some kind of interesting "twist" or "spin". That's great, but it's like an ice cream store that offers 31 flavours but not vanilla and chocolate. I like vanilla and chocolate sometimes!
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I think Erastil being patron god of good-ol'-boy women-can't-be-priests hick towns is a lot like Sarenrae being patron goddess of nations with a heavy slave trade--It's a mismatch with what I think the god should be about, but gods are used to dealing with worshippers who are a mixed bag of what they want, and humans are continually coming up with miracles to justify things they want to do anyway or parsing divine revelations through the filter of their own prejudices. Like this:
ERASTIL: You, young man, are strong. Your sister is weak. You should guard her and protect her. You go hunt and fish while she stays home and tends the hearth. You shall be my priest.
MAN: Men are strong! Women are weak and only fit to keep house! Only men can be priests of Erastil! Woo Patriarchy!
MEANWHILE, IN ANOTHER VALLEY...
ERASTIL: You, young woman, are strong. Your brother is weak. You should guard him and protect him. You go hunt and fish while he stays home and tends the hearth. You shall be my priestess.
WOMAN: Women are strong! Men are weak and only fit to keep house! Only women can be priestesses of Erastil! Go Amazons!
IN THE REALM OF THE GODS...
ERASTIL: Is this thing on?
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IN THE REALM OF THE GODS...
ERASTIL: Is this thing on?
You owe me a soda sir. *wipes off monitor*
Wesley ... Thanks for dropping by. I will try to be more malleable in terms of how I receive your (and Paizo's) creations. Gracias!
Kevin ... Heh. Makes sense I guess. :)
How about Kurgess? http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Kurgess
Edit: or possible Korada? http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Korada
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I'm not defending the Erastil thing. That was an ill-conceived design choice that took a step too far into the real world. I among others had the opportunity to catch and change it, but fell down on that. But it is what it is (until it isn't any more; which is a matter in the offing. I like to think we cop to our mistakes).
Well I am going to defend the Erastil thing. Gods in D&D-esque games have foibles. They're not perfect beings. They have prejudices. They have personality. That Erastil is a somewhat gruff traditionalist with ideas of distinct gender roles in society adds great texture. It can be used to highlight mild social frictions in a society as the more traditional followers of Erastil shake their heads in disapproval at the Iomedaean priestesses rushing off to crusades.
Too often, social conflict in D&D either boils down to elves vs dwarves, or good vs evil, black vs white, or even lawful vs chaos that nobody seems to really be able to pin down or make sense of. I like a little more disagreement between people who are otherwise decent folk but just don't see eye to eye on some issues that aren't about life and death. It makes for a more vibrant setting.
I'm not defending the Erastil thing. That was an ill-conceived design choice that took a step too far into the real world. I among others had the opportunity to catch and change it, but fell down on that. But it is what it is (until it isn't any more; which is a matter in the offing. I like to think we cop to our mistakes).
Well I am going to defend the Erastil thing. Gods in D&D-esque games have foibles. They're not perfect beings. They have prejudices. They have personality. That Erastil is a somewhat gruff traditionalist with ideas of distinct gender roles in society adds great texture. It can be used to highlight mild social frictions in a society as the more traditional followers of Erastil shake their heads in disapproval at the Iomedaean priestesses rushing off to crusades.
Too often, social conflict in D&D either boils down to elves vs dwarves, or good vs evil, black vs white, or even lawful vs chaos that nobody seems to really be able to pin down or make sense of. I like a little more disagreement between people who are otherwise decent folk but just don't see eye to eye on some issues that aren't about life and death. It makes for a more vibrant setting.
Can you still call Erastil Lawful Good while defending it, Bill Dunn?
I am not really into the god of phys Ed & self sacrifice (Kurgess). Meh.
I do like Korada tho ... and hey look its an Empyreal Lord. Figures. :)
Thanks!
Can you still call Erastil Lawful Good while defending it, Bill Dunn?
I easily can. He wants what he believes is best for people but doesn't force it on them any more than a grandfather trying to set you up with his neighbors son/daughter. He wants people to be happy, and believes that traditional roles are the path to happiness. The fact that he doesn't understand people who don't fit in traditional roles doesn't make him evil.
As for not allowing women into his priesthood - thats just false. Kingmaker has a priestess of Erastil.
The Jeff
Gender dynamics are left largely up to GM interpretation from what I can tell. Its not that they aren't there. They leave that space in societies mostly blank for the GM to fill in as he chooses.
ERASTIL: Is this thing on?
That, sir, was beautiful :)
IN THE REALM OF THE GODS...
ERASTIL: Is this thing on?
And the thread has a winner!
The thing with area still is that he may believe in strong sex role differentiation, but I've never seen any claim that this means he doesn't have female clergy. There are a LOT of things they could be doing, many of which don't fall under the usual adventuring stuff but are still very important to the communities they come from.
S ch as deciding which adventurers get healed and resurrected at the local temple...
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Desna, while chaotic, and perhaps considered 'flaky,' has intriguing ties to the Dark Tapestry. Unlike the other nineteen of the 'big 20,' she's not an outsider god living in and operating out of another plane of existence, she's something spawned from this very dimension, and very much a native (much like the Great Old Ones).
I like the suggestion that she's a prehuman god, and only 'recently' assumed a humanoid guise, for the comfort of her human and elven followers.
Like Jergal, from the Realms, a prehuman god (of an extinct insectoid race, IIRC), or Aerdrie Faenya, who was later suggested to have been the goddess of the aarakocra back when they were one of the three 'first races' of the Realms, before she adapted with the decline of her 'first race' and become an elven diety, that sort of thing appeals to me, a god who has been around for such a very long time, that humans are only their *current* worshippers.
In a setting such as Golarion (or the Realms), where other gods come and go, and you can point to some and say, 'He was a human, only a few centuries ago,' a god who is ancient to the point of being prehistoric, is just dripping with flavor.
Maybe Desna is a bit 'flaky,' but it's because she's been around and seen it all, so what might be terribly important to the mortal creatures who currently sing her name is just another passing moment, in a sea of endless moments she has witnessed.
The thing with area still is that he may believe in strong sex role differentiation, but I've never seen any claim that this means he doesn't have female clergy. There are a LOT of things they could be doing, many of which don't fall under the usual adventuring stuff but are still very important to the communities they come from.
S ch as deciding which adventurers get healed and resurrected at the local temple...
Erastil does have female Clerics, and he has female Paladins. It's just that by RAW he's not entirely comfortable with them adventuring and wishes they'd stay home and raise the kids.
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Desna, while chaotic, and perhaps considered 'flaky,' has intriguing ties to the Dark Tapestry. Unlike the other nineteen of the 'big 20,' she's not an outsider god living in and operating out of another plane of existence, she's something spawned from this very dimension, and very much a native (much like the Great Old Ones).
I'd like to point out that quite a few of the "big 20" are native to the Material Plane...and even Golarion itself.
Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, Irori, Nethys, Norgorber are all ascended mortals. Hell, if you wanna hop over the ocean to Tian Xia, Lao Shu Po is literally an ascended rat, and Sun Wukong was a statue brought to life that eventually achieved divinity.
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The thing with area still is that he may believe in strong sex role differentiation, but I've never seen any claim that this means he doesn't have female clergy. There are a LOT of things they could be doing, many of which don't fall under the usual adventuring stuff but are still very important to the communities they come from.
S ch as deciding which adventurers get healed and resurrected at the local temple...
Erastil does have female Clerics, and he has female Paladins. It's just that by RAW he's not entirely comfortable with them adventuring and wishes they'd stay home raise the kids.
"I'd love to settle down and have a nice house, few kids and a barn, but whenever I try to do that there's *always* some lich or demon popping up in the 'hood and there go my plans..."