So, a player of mine wants to make a Headband of Alluring charisma, however we are a little confised about required caster level (in general for magic item creation.) Little clarification would be nice on how that works...
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You are required to have the Craft Wondrous Items feat, which means you must have caster level 3 to qualify for the feat.
The headband is a CL 8 item. That does not mean that you have to be CL 8. Instead, it determines the Spellcraft check you need to make. DC = 5 + CL + 5 per prerequisite you don't have. The only prerequisite is Eagle's Splendor.
If you have that spell or have a friend who can cast it, you make a spellcraft check DC = 5 + 8 = 13.
If you don't have Eagle's Splendor, your check is DC 5 + 8 + 5 = 18.
Either way, you only have to be caster level 3 (to qualify for the craft feat).
Some items such as magic weapons have a caster level as a prerequisite. There is some debate regarding whether these caster level requirements are absolute or whether you can skip them by adding 5 to the DC.
Hm thank you wierdo :)
If you create the headband yourself then then the CL is not 8. It is the minimum caster level to cast the required spell.
In this case Eagle's Splendor is only level 2, so a level 3 caster could cast it.
So the DC would only be 5 + 3 = DC 8 - though if you don't have the spell you would add another 5.
You can create it at a higher CL if you like (for things like resisting Dispel Magic and the like).
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Right, it's also possible to lower or raise the item CL as Gallo describes. There is currently some debate over whether it should work this way (example). The rules for raising or lowering item CL by adjusting Spellcraft DC feel hairy to me. I find it's easier to just use the standard CL for wondrous items because then I don't have to keep track of what CL each crafted item was made at. The crafter can take 10 on checks for item crafting, so it's pretty easy to auto-succeed even if the item CL is a bit above the crafter's. A 3rd level caster with with Spellcraft fully trained and a +2 Int bonus can auto-succeed on a check to make a headband of charisma even without the spell prerequisite.
In short, if you are new to item crafting rules I would not recommend adjusting CL of wondrous items.
If you do want to try adjusting item CL, here's how I think it works ("you" refers to the crafter):
Potions, scrolls, and wands can be crafted at a CL anywhere between the minimum needed to cast the spell and your own CL - they cannot be crafted above your CL. The spell effects they produce will be at the strength of the crafted CL, and their cost is proportionate to their CL. For these items, adjusting CL is pretty basic and balanced.
The only effect CL adjustment would have on the headband is ability to resist Dispel Magic, strength of aura for Detect Magic, and the DC of the spellcraft check. The cost of the item will be the same. In this case it would be to your advantage to set the item's CL as high as your spellcraft check will allow so it can't be dispelled easily. Note that because of potential for abuse, there has been some dispute over whether you can arbitrarily increase item CL without affecting cost. Doesn't seem to be much debate over lowering CL to the minimum needed to cast the spell, but again, these DCs are usually easy to make anyway.
Not sure about wondrous items that produce a spell effect that normally scales with caster level, but based on the Minor and Major Crown of Blasting I think you would scale price based on the caster level required to produce the effect generated, not the caster level of the item.
A major crown produces Maximized Searing Light, a 6th level spell slot, CL 11. The item's caster level is 17.
Prices of items based on spells are generally proportional to spell level * caster level.
A major crown costs 3.66 times as much as a minor crown.
3.66 = (6*11) / (3*6), appropriate to the effect generated.
If it were priced based on the item CL of 17, the major crown would cost (6*17) / (3*6) = 5.66 times as much.
Hope that clarified rather than confused the issue. Again, if you're new to item crafting it will simplify your game to just use standard item CLs.
You are required to have the Craft Wondrous Items feat, which means you must have caster level 3 to qualify for the feat.
The headband is a CL 8 item. That does not mean that you have to be CL 8. Instead, it determines the Spellcraft check you need to make. DC = 5 + CL + 5 per prerequisite you don't have. The only prerequisite is Eagle's Splendor.
If you have that spell or have a friend who can cast it, you make a spellcraft check DC = 5 + 8 = 13.
If you don't have Eagle's Splendor, your check is DC 5 + 8 + 5 = 18.
Either way, you only have to be caster level 3 (to qualify for the craft feat).
Some items such as magic weapons have a caster level as a prerequisite. There is some debate regarding whether these caster level requirements are absolute or whether you can skip them by adding 5 to the DC.
Hold up. So what you are saying that a divine spellcaster (Cleric/Druid) wanted to make a Bag of Holding, that has Craft Wonderous Item feat, but not the arcane spell Secret Chest, the divine spellcaster can just slap a +5 DC for not having the prequisite (the arcane spell), and craft a Bag of Holding to keep his/her divine porn stash somewhere?
Major Doom: Yes, that is exactly how the rules work. This is on CRB p549.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
You do not need to be an Elf to create Boots of Elvenkind.
You do not need to have the spell Longstrider to create Boots of Striding and Springing.
You do not need to have 5 ranks in acrobatics to create Boots of Striding and Springing.
You do not need to be a level 10 Cleric to create a Phylactery of Positive Channeling.
For any prerequisite you are missing add +5 to the crafting DC. All of the above are prerequisites. The ONLY thing that is mandatory is the item crafting feat. Note: in the case of potions and spell-completion or spell-trigger items (such as scrolls, wands, and staves) the spell is also mandatory.
- Gauss
What's an example of a spell-completion magic item?
What's an example of a spell-completion magic item?A scroll.
I thought scrolls are spell-triggered, since after reading them, they trigger the spell stored in them. Yes, no?
Design Manager
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Just thought I'd drop this FAQ in real quick fro reference:
"The APG magic items chapter says (on page 282), "The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level." This contradicts the Core Rulebook. Which is correct?
That line in the APG is an error. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically mentioned in an item's Requirements line (for example, an amulet of natural armor).
(SKR 8/30/10)
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/10"
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Tempeststorm:
Preface: While CL means 'caster level' it is actually a different term than 'Caster Level' when used in the magic item section. For the purposes of this discussion 'CL' is the same as 'CL #' and is the 'CL #' in a magic item's stat block.
Preface 2: All of the discussion below does not include spell-completion items, spell-trigger items, and potions. Those have slightly different rules that I am not addressing.
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The items 'CL #' is not a limiting factor. A level 3 character can create (With difficulty due to the check) a 'CL 17' Pearl of Power 1. The developers have stated this.
'CL #' has several effects.
First, it sets the crafting DC.
Second, it determines the effect's of the items powers (if any). Example: Celestial Armor has a CL 5. This means the fly spell is cast at Caster Level 5.
Third, it sets the item's caster level for the purposes of dispel magic and item saving throws.
I might be missing an effect but I think I got all of them.
What 'CL #' does NOT do (the developers have stated this) is put ANY limiting factor on crafting the item other than to set the DC.
So yes, a 3rd level caster can create a CL8 item. Yes, a 3rd level caster can create a CL17 item. The developers have stated this is true.
- Gauss
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A higher CL item should also have a stronger magical aura using Detect Magic.
Further rule quotation:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
Source. Items that are not potions, scrolls, and wands can have a caster level higher than the creator's (as determined by the item). A 3rd level cleric could make a Handy Haversack by making a Spellcraft check DC = 5 + 5 (No Secret Chest) + 9 = 19. He could do this automatically if he had max ranks in Spellcraft and either Skill Focus (Spellcraft) or an Int of at least 16.
Thanks Weirdo, I thought I mightve missed something regarding what CL affects. And thanks for the quote.
- Gauss
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Nope, wondrous item CL is determined by the item and determines the spellcraft check. The crafter's caster level is not any kind of factor unless the item description lists it as a prerequisite. The CL determined by the Handy Haversack item is 9, even when the crafter is level 3. Note that potions, scrolls, and wands are explicitly limited by the crafter's caster level, unlike other items.
I'm not really sure what you mean by having "a high enough caster level to circumvent the relative spells," since circumventing a spell prerequisite requires a higher DC spellcraft check, not a higher caster level.
Gauss, no problem, I'm my group's designated "guy who understands item crafting," so I know where the sources are.
Tempestorm:
A person without the ability to cast any spells at all can make a Handy Haversack, or suit of armor, or weapons. Doesnt that stick a hole in the idea that it requires any caster level to make the item based on the spell's minimum caster level?
The point is, if a player with no caster level whatsoever can make a handy haversack then wouldnt it be unfair to require a player with a caster level to wait until he can cast the spell? The rules do not require it, and they shouldn't.
- Gauss
Weirdo:
I am my groups designated 'guy who understands the majority of the rules' but even I have a hard time remembering them all. I didnt have the inclination to find every fine point so I put in the clause that it might not be complete. :)
- Gauss
Tempestorm: I think you misunderstood the point I was making.
Restating it with proper emphasis:
Doesnt that stick a hole in the idea that it requires any caster level to make the item based on the spell's minimum caster level?
You are trying to draw a link between between a spell's minimum caster level and caster level requirements to make an item. But the Master Craftsman has no spellcasting ability and thus a spells minimum caster level is moot. They bypass the whole spell issue with +5DC. Thus, in the case of Master Craftsman there is no connection between minimum spell level and the caster level required to manufacture an item. This can be extended to regular spellcasters as well.
All of this is an attempt for me to allow you to understand. It really has nothing to do with the rules. The rules have no provision that states you must be able to cast the spell at minimum caster level.
Note: all of the above is regarding items that are not spell-completion, spell-trigger, or potions.
- Gauss
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@Tempeststorm this is SKR FAQ about the items CL. The relevant part is bolded.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
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For clarity: CL = item caster level, "caster level" = crafter caster level.
Gauss, Master Craftsman isn't a good argument because it gives you an effective caster level:
Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level.
So they do get a caster level. This is necessary because weapons and armour with enhancement bonuses explicitly have caster levels as a prerequisite, and this "effective caster level" allows the Master Craftsman to avoid adding +5 to the DC for every +1 sword they make (though they still have to make up for the lack of specific spells).
The item creation rules state that, "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."
This says that a crafter can lower the CL of the item if they want, to a minimum of the level needed to cast the spell prerequisite. It doesn't say that the crafter has to have a caster level of at least the minimum needed to cast that spell.
The last bold line in Diego Rossi's FAQ above specifically says that a 3rd level wizard can make a Pearl of Power at CL 5, and the only penalty he takes is +5 to the DC for not being able to cast 3rd level spells (the crafting prerequisite).
Weirdo, I know this. However, Tempeststorm was trying to draw a line between a spells minimum caster level and magic item requirements. The rules do not draw it (they state otherwise in fact).
The reference to Master Craftsman was in order to help him understand that even non-spellcasters which have no spells can craft these items.
- Gauss
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Understood, but Tempeststorm's issue isn't that you need to be able to cast spells of the right level to craft the item, he's saying that you need to have a caster level at least as high as the spell's minimum caster level. And even though a Master Craftsman has no spells of any level, they do have a caster level for the purposes of item crafting. Thus if "minimum caster level" is any sort of requirement, a Master Craftsman can meet it.
The rules do however clearly state as you say that a prerequisite spell's minimum caster level is not a minimum magic item crafter caster level (for Wondrous Items).
Right, he is trying to link a caster level = spell minimum caster level. WE understand each other there.
My point was he was arguing that a spells minimum caster level either is a requirement or should be a requirement. So I presented him with an idea maybe he could understand. That idea being that why is he arguing a spells minimum caster level at all when some crafters have no spells at all.
Frankly, with so many different 'minimum caster levels' for spells (the minimums vary by class) it is really not feasible to use that as a requirement anyhow.
This is why I shouldn't try to help people understand things beyond what the RAW states. Every time I come up with a fluff example I think will work it fails to because everyone has different ideas of how magic etc should work. We often do not understand those ideas. I should stick to RAW and leave it at that. :)
- Gauss
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Yeah, there is some weird stuff with magic items and spell level/caster level already. For example, a druid can make a Potion of Neutralize Poison (spell level 3), but a cleric can't (spell level 4, too high for potions). And because casting from scrolls is based on caster level rather than spell level, an Inquisitor can cast Heal from a scroll at level 11 (minimum caster level for a cleric), but can't cast it as a spell until level 16!
That's one reason why I don't mess with changing item caster level, except in really obvious cases like a Pear of Power 1.
I agree with you Weirdo. Oh, and I change it for Necklace of Fireballs (another obvious example).
- Gauss
Tempestorm:
The following is fluff not RAW:
That is why I was trying to point out that people without caster levels can craft via a feat. How are they doing that without being able to cast a single spell? The point is, there are ways. The concept of a Master Swordsmith making the weapon of the gods using techniques lost to most smiths is a known concept in literature. The concept does not include him being able to cast spells. Just using his knowledge of swords to make a magical sword.
A similar idea applies to magic item crafting above your caster level. A Crafter can make things above his pay grade by working hard and using other (unspecified) techniques which, while possible, are often more difficult than if a more experienced caster made it.
Fluff can be written or modified to suit almost any mechanic.
- Gauss
Just thought I'd drop this FAQ in real quick fro reference:
"The APG magic items chapter says (on page 282), "The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level." This contradicts the Core Rulebook. Which is correct?
That line in the APG is an error. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically mentioned in an item's Requirements line (for example, an amulet of natural armor).(SKR 8/30/10)
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/10"
Hmmmmm. I've always thought this was the case. I have a somewhat related question to this, and the thread subject.
My GM seems to be under the impression that for weapons and armor I have to have the prerequisite three times the enhancement(+1 to +5) CL that the item has, as a "hard" requirement if you will. So basically that I can't just raise the DC by 5 like I do with almost everything else I make that I don't have the requirements. Just seeking a little clarification on if I'm understanding this correctly. That the CL is just another prerequisite, if even that, that I can adjust the DC to compensate for.
I guess to sum it up in a question: Am I correct in understanding that CL is not a prerequisite for item crafting? Thanks!
Happy Gaming!
'CL #' is not a prerequisite for item crafting.
People debate if Caster Level prerequisites are a hard requirement or not.
As I have shown in other threads the wording for those prerequisites is no different than the wording for prerequisites.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
To pull out the relevant statements:
1) These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.2) The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
Note that statement 2 contradicts and therefore trumps statement 1.
Now lets look at weapons (armor is the same):
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
To pull out the relevant statement:
3) Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.So, we have two important words.
The first word is 'special'. Many people believe that special prerequisites trump the general prerequisite concept. Thus, it is a prerequisite that cannot be bypassed. The problem with this is that there is nothing in the rules that state this. In order for Special to trump General there needs to be some kind of statement that this is the case. There is no such statement here.
The second word is 'must', 'must' is contradicted and trumped by statement #2.
Summary: The rules do not state that the magic arms and armor prerequisite is an exception to the rules regarding +5DC for prerequisites you do not meet.
- Gauss
They used 'must' as a general statement as well. Thus, all items 'must' meet the prerequisites.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Bold 1: 'prerequisites must be met'.
Bolt 2: You may bypass prerequisites by increasing the DC by +5. The ONLY exception to this is the item creation feat.Since the rules on weapons, armor, cloak of resistance, etc do not provide an exception to this they do not have an exception. They use the same wording 'must' as the general rules.
Note: Potions, Spell-trigger, or spell-completion items are not being discussed, they have an additional exception that the spell prerequisites cannot be bypassed.
- Gauss