Goblin Squad Member
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At what point does it start to become Progress Quest? which "follows reverently in the footsteps of recent smash hit online worlds, but is careful to streamline the more tedious aspects of those offerings."
If games can put in a giant hitpoint bar, im sure its easy enough to put in a thirst and hunger bar. But no auto-eat, same way an auto-pot is no good. Anything other than small travel rations should require a sit down and pause to consume.
Not because of realism, but to force players to stop, get some downtime, make decisions, socialize and provide opportunity for interesting things to happen.
Sort of an "auto-use this consumable" checkbox, Nihimon?Exactly.
And I agree with Imbicatus on automatically using buff spells, too. And if there's nothing to stop the caster from maintaining the spell constantly - such as a short duration buff that only lasts 15 seconds but can't be cast again for 5 minutes - then I'd just as soon see these kinds of buff spells all implemented as constant auras.
I'm also very curious to hear the devs' opinion about "buff bots", and selling buffs. My personal opinion is that I'd rather require the buffer to be grouped with me and close to me in order for me to receive the benefit of their buff, but I realize that may not be a popular opinion at all. There's just something immersion-breaking about and "scaffoldy" about making alts for the sole purpose of providing valuable buffs and logging them in one after the other to buff my group before we go out to adventure.
I agree on requiring players to be grouped in order to be buffed. I Strongly believe that if someone buffs you then logs off, the buff should poof. I don't like seeing a bot log in just long enough to turn a new player into a Sherman tank then logging out.
Although its not a big deal to me, I'm of the opinion that players should have to reup spells or abilities that expire. I'll leave that up to the community and the Devs on how to handle reupping spells or abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I support starvation or dehydration = death . It WILL make the game much more interesting and fun.
I'm as against this as it's possible for me to be. Activities already have upkeep costs. Crafters need mats, adventurers need gear, shopkeeps need product, gatherers have to maintain their mines/lumber yards/quarries. We do not need an upkeep cost for players to hop in game and spend the evening standing in the street talking with their friends.
I'm all for settlement/outpost level supply resources. Your town as a whole needs food or NPC productivity drops. That makes sense, adds value to seiges, and allows for sabotage in inter-community conflict. But forcing players to micromanage supplies or die is just a headache.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I Strongly believe that if someone buffs you then logs off, the buff should poof.
Seems to make one of my favourite in-game activities...drive-by buffing...that much harder to do. To be fair, I'm usually not logging off right as I do, but I do try to finish up in the most-crowded places I can find, in order to hand out one last round of goodies on my way.
I Strongly believe that if someone buffs you then logs off, the buff should poof.Seems to make one of my favourite in-game activities...drive-by buffing...that much harder to do. To be fair, I'm usually not logging off right as I do, but I do try to finish up in the most-crowded places I can find, in order to hand out one last round of goodies on my way.
Well obviously the Devs have final say, and they may put it before the community letting them voice their opinions, but the whole concept of buff bots and heal bots are pretty repulsive to me (by that I mean someone logging in another character they own to buff/heal while they play another character). While not allowing buffs to last past the time the buffer is offline, won't stop it totally, it will cut down on its use quite a bit due to the player continually having to monitor the buffer ensuring its safety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it be more efficient to store the expiration date than (or in addition to) the creation date? It seems to me that would remove an arithmetic step from the loop.That's a good thought, and if you're not worried about the extra space of storing both (which is probably not worth worrying about) then I would recommend doing so. You definitely want to hang on to the creation date, though, since that means you can also have things like buffs that temporarily slow the rate of decay.
But really, the system described is nowhere near complete, so getting into the weeds just points out all the other weeds that haven't been considered yet. For example, you'd probably be better off storing the total Decay Points the item can survive, the number of Decay Points already suffered, and the base rate of Decay Points per Unit Time. This allows you to modify any of those values without having to do really complex math.
The important piece of Waffleyone's design is how he differentiates it from Andius's recommendation of having a global check every X minutes by suggesting a just-in-time check instead.
Nihimon,
I am not a programmer either, but would it not be feasible to have food and drink have fixed points in time from the time of it's creation for certain stages to be established in a matrix. Then when an item is cooked, picked, processed, or smoked, all these would have say, 5 points in time pre-established (it would vary depending on the item).
For example, you kill a deer and harvest 12 "Slab of raw venison". Upon creation a time starts towards 5 predetermined future points (sounds easy for a computer to do...the hard part would be setting up the chart and doing a graphic for each stage of each item). Stage 1; Fresh. Looks yummy), Stage 2; Good-Still edible but discolored. Stage 3; Smelly-Needs to be used or cooked in 12 (game) hours. 4-Rotten; Do not eat. Stage 5-Maggoty.
You get the idea. Tough in PnP but easy for a server.
I get "The Devil is in the details" part. But what a shame it would be to have a really robust crafting system only to leave out farming, processing, building gristmills and bakeries, cooking, brewing, and selling foodstuff and drinks in an inn or tavern. I tihnk it would add a huge amount to the game. It doesn't necessarily need to exactly reflect "realism", but it could be implemented in a way that adds "flavor" to the entire food crafting chain of activities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... would it not be feasible to have food and drink have fixed points in time from the time of it's creation for certain stages to be established in a atrix.
Imagine a very simple case where you say that Bread is Fresh for 1 day. So, it's created at 4pm on the 17th, and you establish a point in time where it will become stale at 4pm on the 18th. Now, imagine you put that Bread in a Bag of Preserving at 7pm on the 17th. Suddenly, that 4pm on the 18th doesn't make any more sense.
Upon creation a time starts towards 5 predetermined future points...
Are you talking about starting a timer?
If you use a timer, then you need to check everything that might time out every time the timer ticks. It sounds simple, but it's actually incredibly costly. It's much simpler to check each item as that item's state is inspected or changes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But what a shame it would be to have a really robust crafting system only to leave out farming, processing, building gristmills and bakeries, cooking, brewing, and selling foodstuff and drinks in an inn or tavern.
I certainly don't think you need to leave that out.
I can envision a system where each batch of Food has three properties: Create Date, Max Freshness Points, Current Freshness Points. If you update the Current Freshness Points every time that batch of Food's state is inspected or changed, you can fairly easily manage a robust system where different containers cause food to decay at a slower or even faster rate, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Food and drink should not only be needed and desired by player characters but by NPCs, and logistic chains and availability of supply should be a major concern for generals on the march.
NPCs should work more productively when they know the silos are filling for winter (we don't know if we will have seasons and weather) and against seige: they are reassured that the settlement is well run and their families are as safe as possible.
An army on the march should depend on a constant supply of food along with materiel, and the minor ally of the defender who perhaps cannot contribute much to the conflict on the front lines can still seek to break a siege by disrupting the supply lines of the besieging force. Similarly siege, denying the settlement's access to food and water, should have real consequences that could weaken resistance, increase discontent, and possibly force a settlement's fall.
The benefit to exploration that would result from giving hunters a reason to hunt beyond skinning hides from the quarry for leatherwork cannot be overstated; the opportunity for farming strongly appeals to some roleplayers; the opportunities for a galaxy of food recipes would keep our chefs busy for years, it seems to me.
So I think PFO will really miss a significant boat if they fail to include food and drink (Wine? Ale? Mead? Water?) and their uses and varieties.
I would have thought it unconscionable to leave these out.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Seems like a perfect example of something that can be very abstract in month 1, and increase in complexity over successive iterations. For example, I don't expect to see settlements and seiges until several months into EE, so there's no point spending scarce developer time on a supply-chain system up front. But having the basics of abstracted wellness indicator for the invisible NPCs will allow a more sophisticated model to be introduced later.
Likewise with farming - it's really just making the harvesting role more complex by allowing user placeable resource nodes.
These bolt-on complications / simulationist accents are perfect for the crowdforging process to prioritise against other uses of dev time. I hope (expect) someone at GW is jotting down notes about all these ideas and possibilities in a large vellum grimoire. Or spreadsheet, that's fine too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But what a shame it would be to have a really robust crafting system only to leave out farming, processing, building gristmills and bakeries, cooking, brewing, and selling foodstuff and drinks in an inn or tavern.I certainly don't think you need to leave that out.
I can envision a system where each batch of Food has three properties: Create Date, Max Freshness Points, Current Freshness Points. If you update the Current Freshness Points every time that batch of Food's state is inspected or changed, you can fairly easily manage a robust system where different containers cause food to decay at a slower or even faster rate, etc.
I don't really care "how" it's done. I just think it'd be a shame to not get done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Food and drink should not only be needed and desired by player characters but by NPCs, and logistic chains and availability of supply should be a major concern for generals on the march.
NPCs should work more productively when they know the silos are filling for winter (we don't know if we will have seasons and weather) and against seige: they are reassured that the settlement is well run and their families are as safe as possible.
An army on the march should depend on a constant supply of food along with materiel, and the minor ally of the defender who perhaps cannot contribute much to the conflict on the front lines can still seek to break a siege by disrupting the supply lines of the besieging force. Similarly siege, denying the settlement's access to food and water, should have real consequences that could weaken resistance, increase discontent, and possibly force a settlement's fall.
An army marches on it's stomach, and what better way to break a seige than to disrupt their supply lines, including food and drink for the troops.
I like the full/empty waterskin and full/empty stomach icons. Eating and drinking should be important and help with the game immersion. I don't want to go so far as seeing a full/empty bladder and colon icon. That's a little TOO realistic!
But it would allow for you to get "Caught with your pants down!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see a required food / water intake, provided it is readily available and fairly cheap or free.
Water is pretty sinple, "See that river, drink!"
Food can be hunted for, fished for, harvested, or bought.
We could be required to eat every 8 hours (3 meals a day) and drink water every 3 hours (8 cups a day).
There could be a debuff for extended lack of water and or food. But, characters shold have containers that can carry several days worth of rations and enough water for 2 days or so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If water is a requirement, then all I see happening is everyone learning enough cleric or Druid magic to cast orisons. Then everyone will simply cast a 0 level create water whenever they need to drink. Food is a little bit more difficult to bypass,but not much, and I see rings of substance becoming very popular. Because vocal minority aside, most people see the constant need for food and water to be not fun to play, and the tools to bypass those needs are readily available to characters with access to magic in Golarion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If water is a requirement, then all I see happening is everyone learning enough cleric or Druid magic to cast orisons. Then everyone will simply cast a 0 level create water whenever they need to drink. Food is a little bit more difficult to bypass,but not much, and I see rings of substance becoming very popular. Because vocal minority aside, most people see the constant need for food and water to be not fun to play, and the tools to bypass those needs are readily available to characters with access to magic in Golarion.
Since this is not PnP PF, but PFO, that issue could be remedied in a fun and still playable way. It need not mirror PnP PF. And it will really be far from it since so much more can be done using a powerful computer versus scratching out rolls and comparing things.
Eating and drinking need not be bypassed so easily.....maybe for the fortunate few that can, but not as a matter of course.
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I think a better way would be NOT to require it, but provide a minor benefit for those that do Eat & Drink. Something along the lines of a small bonus to stamina that last for 3 hours for water and 8 hours for food. That way it becomes a positive reinforcement and those who don't want to do it don't have to.
I think a better way would be NOT to require it, but provide a minor benefit for those that do Eat & Drink. Something along the lines of a small bonus to stamina that last for 3 hours for water and 8 hours for food. That way it becomes a positive reinforcement and those who don't want to do it don't have to.
This is how I see food/drink being handled in PFO. I'm fairly sure they will vary the bonuses different food gives, whether its done by food type ie. fish gives + to STA while red meat gives + to CON, or just different bonuses to different dishes really doesn't matter. Varying the bonuses will allow for different foods to be sought at different times, by different classes and for different situations.
Although there's been no official word on food/drink, a few hints have been dropped, such as....
From the blog If I had a Hammer:
Many creature types, particularly magical creatures, will drop "remnants" that can only be collected by players with the correct knowledge skills, and which are useful in enchanting and alchemy. Creatures may also have useful leather and meat available to players with the right skills.
Also farms have been mentioned recently in a Dev post but I can't recall exactly where that was. I might be wrong, but I believe Ryan's post about food scaring him was in relation to characters needing food and drink moreso then the existence of food/drink.
I like the idea of food / drink having an important role in the daily life. It adds another dimension to the game imo. Either putting food in your backpack before adventuring, or rely on your survival skills like fishing or hunting.
I would like to see food / drink being used to restore Hit Points between fights. So normally it would maybe take 30 seconds for your Hit Points to restore from 10% to 100%, but with food / drink it would maybe take 10 seconds.
There could also be some buff depending on what food / drink you use. Food needed to be prepared over fire could give a long term major buff, so setting up campfires once in a while is a good idea.
Interrupting supply chains under siege sounds really intriguing, but may be hard to implement. The same goes for poisoning the water supply for an enemy settlement as sabotage (this would have a major impact on the common folk that are harvesting for that settlement). Thieves poisoning the food people are carrying around on them (using pickpocketing skill).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick question I wanted to ask. Does anyone know whether food and drink will be required or provide any benefits? I'm assuming at the very least they'll provide a temporary buff of some kind.
Given the myriad of potential professions in a sandbox, chef seems an obvious choice. I've recently been thinking though that it might be cool if food were required (on some level). Now obviously you wouldn't die of starvation, and I think it would be a mistake to force people to constantly having to stop and snack. But you could implement something where characters suffer minor debuffs the longer they go without eating. Nothing crippling, just enough to incentivize stopping at inns and markets occasionally. It would also be something to consider when planning a long trek in the wilderness.
Has any other mmo had a system like this in the past? If so, was it cool or awful? In the few that I've played, cooking often feels like alchemy with minor tweaks. I hate wandering into inns and finding nothing but npc's. Also, since one of the possibilities for building player built structures is an inn, it'd be nice if there were actual services it could provide. Food, Drink, Notice Boards for work, a place to sleep or get healed up...
Or it could be really annoying. Maybe it's crossing the line between immersive and tedious. Thoughts?
@McDuff The original EQ had a good system for dealing with Food+Drink, it was a passive consumption of Food that allowed you passively regen health (SLOWLY) and Passively regen Stamina/Mana (SLOWLY) between combat. The better food or drink you purchased influenced the regen rate but it was always at such a minimal rate that it was almost negligible. The requirement for it came from when you had downtime and needed to rest. If you didn't have anything you also didn't regen so it became imperative to at least have minimal food.
I personally found that buying the best food from the Innkeepers was more than enough for my characters even up to the high level 60's after playing for years and years.
I also agree with a system like that you could see some very good boons to the player profession by requiring it in a similar fashion, but allowing for other abilities or attributes to be influenced based on player made food.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see food / drink being used to restore Hit Points between fights. So normally it would maybe take 30 seconds for your Hit Points to restore from 10% to 100%, but with food / drink it would maybe take 10 seconds.
I'm seeing HP regen more along the line of 10 minutes than 10 seconds. After several hard battles and using your refreshes, you are in trouble and need a decent amount of time to regain your health. Ten seconds is way too fast....10 minutes might be too long, but it needs to be significant enough so heals are used judiciously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that food is a part of the game, something that will be treated as an essential part of an adventurer's gear if travelling beyond the reach of a tavern or friendly local farmhouse.
It gives the hunters a chance to shine, every party needs to take along a wilderness expert or be lumbered with a pack mule full of trail rations.
It also allows for the crafters to set up stalls. Imagine a popular 'dungeon' with half a dozen catering stalls set up near the entrance. I love the thought of adventuring becoming part of the local economy like that.
I would also like to see every kill provide some form of nutritional loot, whether the meat of that boar, or the leaves of the animated plant. The butchering/cooking skill would be necessary to actually loot such nutrition.
Possibly more controversially, I'd like slain humanoids to also provide such meat, giving orcs, goblins and the naughtier half-orcs more reason to come raiding farmsteads or dwarf-holds for captives, and allowing some of those Evil humanoid characters to make a stew of the last band of vigilantes that came after them. My Evil half-orc druid or witch would love a band of new adventurers to come looking for her....
Obviously, cannibalism (or eating other humanoids) would bring the character firmly into the Evil camp, unless it was a survival situation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also like to see every kill provide some form of nutritional loot, whether the meat of that boar, or the leaves of the animated plant.
I hope that you need specialized skills to get this stuff off of the kills. I hate having my bags fill up with useless crap I don't want, or having to waste time sifting through the corpse before I move on. If I want to get haunches of meat from a boar, I should have to learn how to butcher the boar to get them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would. That's why I suggested that the butchering or cooking skill would be required to loot it.
I'm not sure why you feel that you would be forced to take it if you didn't want it, however. Most games allow you to only take what you need, and to destroy or discard what you don't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Uhg. I hate games that make you take a ton of skills to butcher corpses. Cavemen could manage it. Yeah being skilled / knowledgable helps a bit but it isn't like if you hand a knife and a carcass to your average Joe they will fail to find meat and hide.
What I think is ridiculous is when you open up a freshly killed corpse and it comes pre-butchered with nice little stacks of meat, hide, etc.
Just make it so that you can open the corpse to loot coins, equipment, etc. and if you want the meat, hide, etc. you have to use a knife on it to butcher it. If you want to tie a skill in give a slight boost in yields based off the survival skill.
It also allows for the crafters to set up stalls. Imagine a popular 'dungeon' with half a dozen catering stalls set up near the entrance. I love the thought of adventuring becoming part of the local economy like that.
I believe this won't be possible as I seem to remember dungeons get locked to the discoverer who can then raise a party to raid it. After it has been raided the dungeon disappears
Found the quote from the blog Where the wild things are
"What we'd like to do with Pathfinder Online is combine an open world approach to design with this kind of theme park content. As you explore, you may discover a dungeon entrance. So long as you don't go inside, that entrance can be found by other explorers. Once a character enters the dungeon, though, that entrance becomes "locked" to that explorer; other characters won't be able to find that entrance. A character with access to an entrance can form a party and the party can enter the dungeon as a group.
If nobody finds the entrance, or none of the people who find it enter it, the entrance will be removed from the game world after a fairly short period of time, and it will respawn elsewhere. If the dungeon is entered, it will remain in the game world a longer period of time. If the final challenge is overcome, the dungeon will be removed after a short interval (giving you time to make several trips to and from the dungeon to haul out the loot within)."
@Bringslite
I am not sure foundry stuff will be treated in the same way. I am also not convinced that foundry stuff will be an issue for quite a while. I suspect people would prefer a full set of classes before a foundry
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh absolutely. I am just referencing someone's objection to future foundry content taking away from player interactions if they are "one off" instances and closed to all but the purchaser and his party.
It sounds like "finding" and entering the adventure and "activating" a player made adventure will both be limited in who can use.
I brought it up because your posted quote (that my friend Jack Daniels was supposed to store when I read it, long ago, and he did a poor job) reminded me of that objection.
Really not an advocate of foundry content trumping any of the more popular requested features that we will be waiting on at all.
I guess that I do too much assuming that people read most/all posts/threads and remember most of what they read.... Not realistic.