If I were to make a sorcerer optimized for spells known (favored class bonus, arcane bloodline, Extra Arcana feats, high Charisma, and pages of spell knowledge) what would be considered the best spells to have?
Assume it's a skewed character that relies on said spells for survival sans much worthwhile feats or gear.
Fly and Invisibility.
Just wide open ended like that? Crap, that's too expansive a question to answer.
I don't know, cover the major control bases and buffs:
Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow (why not, if you have that many spells known?), Black Tentacles, Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, as many Summons as you can fit...
Yeah, there's just too many.
create pit is a powerfull level 2.
Charm person
Summon monster II and up.
Detect magic.
Mage armor is great if you do not use gear.
Enlarge person if it helps a party member well.
Silent Image is a very resourcefull spell.
*bump*
It makes me sad that ideal sorcerers often end up with such homogenous lists.
It makes me sad that ideal sorcerers often end up with such homogenous lists.
it is why i have 2 sorcerers with oddball lists (although i still have some spells similar to above lists) but a gnome illusionist sorcerer can be very versatile and fun (i described mine in a 'gnome illusionist' thread) and the fey-sylvan bloodline lets you get an animal companion, with boon companion is just as good as a druids(or with a robe of arcane heritage, better than a druids!), which means you just need buff spells (transformation cast on my huge lion anyone?) and the rest can be circumstantial or goofy. i took possess object so i could possess cakes (he has a sweet tooth :)
Level 1:
Sleep (Possibly the most powerful level 1 spell especially at level 1) swap out later for Obscuring Mist.
Color Spray. Both are potential encounter enders on one spell at low level.
Magic Missile: scales well, always hits, even hits incorporeal, no save (SR though).
Level 2:
Create Pit
Alter Self (easy way to pick up a stack of buffs)
Pyrotechnics (choice of two debuffs, versatility is king for Sorc)
Level 3:
Invisibility
Haste
Fly
Level 4:
Improved Invisibility
Black Tentacles
Summon Monster IV
Must have Wands: Grease, Mage Armor.
Or, you can go Fey Bloodline, Kitsune, Spell Focus: Enchantment for Humanoid heavy campaigns:
(Assuming 20 Cha, your Enchantment DC's will be: 10 +5 Cha +2 Fey +1 Spell Focus +1 Kitsune + Spell Level) DC
So for example, Sleep would be DC 19 at level 1! I am building this next campaign I play in a human heavy environment.
Some things depend on the rest of your party, bit I might add a plea for a few more divination spells, such as scrying and clairaudience/clairvoyance. Finding out what's goin on is often hugely more valuable in staying alve than just another spell. Then again, I often play wizards instead of sorceress.
I see people advocate for Pyrotechnics all the time, but I question how many of those people have actually tried to use it.
I understand reading it how you'd go "I can blind people in a huge area or create stat penalizing smoke nobody can see through? That's awesome!"
But it should only take another moment to realize, "oh crap, I need the enemies to have a fire (and a disturbingly large number of monsters have darkvision) and I'm almost certainly going to bone my own party in the process."
See, here's the thing I think most people are ignoring--the blind effect has a 120' range and closing your eyes or looking away does not save you from the effect. If it did, the spell would say so. It requires line of sight, but line of sight is a game term--it has nothing to do with actually seeing it. Blind enemies still have a "line of sight." So, unless the enemy has a fire already and you and your allies are 121+' away and can close that distance fast enough for the blind to still matter, I don't think this spell is that great.
I mean, ok, the smoke is still ok, but your only real option is aoe-blasting the smoke and/or hoping the bad guys stumble out of it towards you rather than on the other side of the smoke.
So, yeah, I think this is an extremely overrated spell, and I'd much, much rather have Glitterdust, which is still useful, even at high levels, if you Heighten it.
I see people advocate for Pyrotechnics all the time, but I question how many of those people have actually tried to use it.
I understand reading it how you'd go "I can blind people in a huge area or create stat penalizing smoke nobody can see through? That's awesome!"
But it should only take another moment to realize, "oh crap, I need the enemies to have a fire (and a disturbingly large number of monsters have darkvision) and I'm almost certainly going to bone my own party in the process."
See, here's the thing I think most people are ignoring--the blind effect has a 120' range and closing your eyes or looking away does not save you from the effect. If it did, the spell would say so. It requires line of sight, but line of sight is a game term--it has nothing to do with actually seeing it. Blind enemies still have a "line of sight." So, unless the enemy has a fire already and you and your allies are 121+' away and can close that distance fast enough for the blind to still matter, I don't think this spell is that great.
I mean, ok, the smoke is still ok, but your only real option is aoe-blasting the smoke and/or hoping the bad guys stumble out of it towards you rather than on the other side of the smoke.
So, yeah, I think this is an extremely overrated spell, and I'd much, much rather have Glitterdust, which is still useful, even at high levels, if you Heighten it.
Of all the problems you mentioned with the spell, enemies not having fire is not one of them.
It's easy enough to take the fire to them.
I see people advocate for Pyrotechnics all the time, but I question how many of those people have actually tried to use it.
Yes, on a regular basis.
I understand reading it how you'd go "I can blind people in a huge area or create stat penalizing smoke nobody can see through? That's awesome!"
Thats because it is!
But it should only take another moment to realize, "oh crap, I need the enemies to have a fire (and a disturbingly large number of monsters have darkvision) and I'm almost certainly going to bone my own party in the process."
Now, if you are using has darkvision as a reason the spell sucks, because they can see through, you are incorrect. If you are using it as a reason bad guys would have fire, you are only about 66% wrong. Light, Warmth, Cooking are probably the three biggest uses for fire, and only two are generally considered necessary (Warmth and Cooking).
See, here's the thing I think most people are ignoring--the blind effect has a 120' range and closing your eyes or looking away does not save you from the effect. If it did, the spell would say so. It requires line of sight, but line of sight is a game term--it has nothing to do with actually seeing it. Blind enemies still have a "line of sight." So, unless the enemy has a fire already and you and your allies are 121+' away and can close that distance fast enough for the blind to still matter, I don't think this spell is that great.
Again, you are incorrect. Please see this forum posting. Many pathfinder terms are not defined explicitly, but you can look to other terms to garner meaning. "Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight." Closing ones eyes is a factor that limits normal sight. I would go so far as to say closing ones eyes tightly and looking away goes so far as to completely eliminate normal sight.
-Snip-Pyrotechnics turns a fire into a burst of blinding fireworks or a thick cloud of choking smoke, depending on your choice. The spell uses one fire source, which is immediately extinguished. A fire so large that it exceeds a 20-foot cube is only partly extinguished. Magical fires are not extinguished, although a fire-based creature used as a source takes 1 point of damage per caster level.
Fireworks: The fireworks are a flashing, fiery, momentary burst of glowing, colored aerial lights. This effect causes creatures within 120 feet of the fire source to become blinded for 1d4+1 rounds (Will negates). These creatures must have line of sight to the fire to be affected. Spell resistance can prevent blindness.
Smoke Cloud: A stream of smoke billows out from the fire, forming a choking cloud that spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take –4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.
Now, if you are using has darkvision as a reason the spell sucks, because they can see through, you are incorrect. If you are using it as a reason bad guys would have fire, you are only about 66% wrong. Light, Warmth, Cooking are probably the three biggest uses for fire, and only two are generally considered necessary (Warmth and Cooking).
No, it's the fire thing. I know the smoke blocks Darkvision (and I think the smoke is the better usage of the two options).
I find your assertion that most enemies will use fire despite darkvision to be dubious at best. If you expect your standard encounter with monsters to be attacking them near their camp/cooking fire, then ok, take the spell. But I think it's far more likely you'll encounter orcs on patrol or guard duty (where fire would be of no help), or zombies and stuff wandering an ancient crypt, or goblins in their warrens where only one or two rooms (the "kitchen" and maybe, for warmth, the living quarters) are likely to have fire.
And I don't think it's a simple matter to bring fire to them. It takes at least one extra action on your party's part to do so--and probably more. Plus, I've been in plenty of PC parties where nobody had fire. If everyone in your party has darkvision or a light spell (or even if the majority do), why waste a hand on torches?
Meanwhile, Glitterdust has blinded everyone without any risk or extra actions.
Again, you are incorrect. Please see this forum posting.
While it took a while to find the actual answer in there, it does seem SKR has defined Line of Sight as being able to see something. I think it'd be better to just say, "These creatures must (be able to see) fire to be affected" instead of using a made up game term like "line of sight."
I concede this point. Sort of, because now I question, if closing your eyes is a perfect defense against this, what sort of action is closing your eyes? Why can't the enemies just close their eyes? This just makes the spell GM-reliant. That's perfectly fine, but I don't consider any GM-reliant spells to be top picks, since their usability will vary so greatly.
And I still think Glitterdust is better ;)
what would be considered the best spells to have?
Sorcerers are best not made piecemeal this way.
Rather have an entire concept and work at what all fits and how that changes as you level.
Otherwise you will confuse the class with that of wizard,
James
Oh I agree, and my casters always follow a theme of some kind. Still it doesn't hurt to have a few great suggestions to round out/pad the spells known once I have the theme down.