Kensei Weapons


Advice


I'm trying to build a Kensei Magus, but am having a hard time picking a weapon. If I want to optimize it looks like weapon finesse and a high Dex score is a must, but the class also seems to be an excellent AoO class. I also feel like a higher crit range would be good. I realize there probably isn't a perfect weapon, but what would be a good on to use a a kensei? I really would like to avoid a scimitar. Thanks.


Katana is good.


While I sympathize with the idea of avoiding a scimitar I do feel the need to point out Dervish Dance.


I've just played a dervish dancer in several other games.


You know I've never gotten the whole anti-scimitar thing. Is is cause it's typically associated as a middle eastern sword? Honestly it's just another curved blade and I find it funny that people suggest Katana's over it then.

Well back on topic, I'd recommend you still play with a scimitar. You just re-skin the sword to be something else and play with the mechanics(crit-range, damage die, etc) of a Scimitar with Dervish Dance while saying its a cutlass or something more favorable.


Cass_Ponderovian wrote:
I've just played a dervish dancer in several other games.

Ah! I can dig it. In that case, can I recommend the Kapenia Dancer archetype from the latest Varisia book? You fight with a bladed scarf, which is one-handed and finessable for this particulary archetype. It's got the same Int-to-AC power as Kensai, but it keeps Spell Recall, which was what eventually swayed me for the magus I just recently put together.

Side note, if you really want to stick with the Kensai archetype, and flavorwise you want to get as far as possible from the scimitar, how about a sword cane? You could be quite unassuming until attacked. (Also, if you want to get really crazy, you can combine Kensai with Bladebound, which seems (to me) like a match made in heaven.)


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Darth Grall wrote:
You know I've never gotten the whole anti-scimitar thing. Is is cause it's typically associated as a middle eastern sword? Honestly it's just another curved blade and I find it funny that people suggest Katana's over it then.

I think it's mostly down to the Dervish Dancing Scimitar Magus being a bit overdone. The Dervish Dancing Scimitar Magus is downright prolific since it's so good from an optimization PoV, so now people want to try something different.


Darth Grall wrote:

You know I've never gotten the whole anti-scimitar thing. Is is cause it's typically associated as a middle eastern sword? Honestly it's just another curved blade and I find it funny that people suggest Katana's over it then.

Well back on topic, I'd recommend you still play with a scimitar. You just re-skin the sword to be something else and play with the mechanics(crit-range, damage die, etc) of a Scimitar with Dervish Dance while saying its a cutlass or something more favorable.

The reason is because it is likely the most optimal choice. As a result, it's likely to have already been the first thing considered. You can only play so many dex-melee with Dervish Dance before you're in the mood to look into alternatives.


Grimmy wrote:
Katana is good.

As are polearms (fauchard being a great example), to capitalize on reach/AoO's.

Unfortunately it takes a bit of finagling to get said polearm into one hand--either via a small-sized polearm, a 2 (or was it 3?)-level dip into titan mauler (barbarian), or a 3-level dip into phalanx soldier (fighter), or by animating it via dancing or the defending staff spell (if your GM will let you apply it to the haft) or something similar.

Actually, now I'm curious as to whether a throwing/returning spear of some kind might work...


An aldori dueling sword might be a fun option. You can take aldori dueling mastery for more AC as well as having it work for duelist class features.


I actually did decide on the Aldori Dueling Sword, and am going to take levels in the prestige class.

To continue the conversation on scimitars:
If you're building a straight damage build they are great. I would never build a straight magus without the dervish dance feat, but since Kensai gives you 'Superior Reflexes' I think using a reach weapon with a high crit range would help make an excellent AoO Build. The only problem is Kensai gets all of its abilities from Int and Dex so the optimal route would be a finesseable reach weapon. Besides the whip that doesn't seem to exist. Maybe Kensai is better for a str build and replaces the need for high dex with high int (which a magus needs anyway).


Cass_Ponderovian wrote:

To continue the conversation on scimitars:

If you're building a straight damage build they are great. I would never build a straight magus without the dervish dance feat, but since Kensai gives you 'Superior Reflexes' I think using a reach weapon with a high crit range would help make an excellent AoO Build. The only problem is Kensai gets all of its abilities from Int and Dex so the optimal route would be a finesseable reach weapon. Besides the whip that doesn't seem to exist. Maybe Kensai is better for a str build and replaces the need for high dex with high int (which a magus needs anyway).

I think cause of the lack of armor, a Kensai supports a higher dex than even a normal magus and hence why Dervish makes even more sense for him.

As for reach, you can always just take lunge to make it a reach weapon...


One solid reason not to use Dervish is that in a home group it is liable to be banned due to cheese. In my opinion (and those of most of the people I game with), there is a huge balance problem with allowing dex to govern AC, attack AND damage rolls.

My Kensai uses a falcata, by the way. It's pretty wreck even with a sub-optimal strength.


The Dervish dance complaining is starting to get a bit old. So what if its the most common Magus build? I don't see people complaining that most melee go two handed and most sneak attack builds go TWF. So why the hell get so bent on this?

Chesse? Hardly there are far more powerful things out there. Unless someone bans full casters they have no real right to ban this unless they are flat out bias.

Even so there are still other good builds. I don't have the time to hunt it down right now but someone came up with a Halfling sling staff magus that seemed just flat out awesome.

I have also been toying with a build idea for a shield as his only weapon Magus that I should flesh out sometime.

Honestly I wish there was an archetype that traded something at least useful for spell combat so a two handed Magus is more feasible. sure it can be done now but it feels horrible to give up something as good as spell combat for nothing in return.

Silver Crusade

Cass_Ponderovian wrote:
I'm trying to build a Kensei Magus, but am having a hard time picking a weapon. If I want to optimize it looks like weapon finesse and a high Dex score is a must, but the class also seems to be an excellent AoO class. I also feel like a higher crit range would be good. I realize there probably isn't a perfect weapon, but what would be a good on to use a a kensei? I really would like to avoid a scimitar. Thanks.

Since you will be using Int as if it were Dex, you coul go Str/Int and use a great terbutje. Bastard sword stats, but can be made of wyrroot for a steady influx of arcane pool points.

For supercheese take a one or two level dip in synthesist summoner; this allows you to completely dump Str and Dex, max out Int, get some natural armor, a stash of extra temporary hit points, the ability to cast mage armor, and some natural attacks. Pick up the extra arms evolution and you can use a two-handed weapon (like a wyrroot fauchard) with spell combat and spell strike.

Slightly less cheesy is a two-level dip in alchemist to get extra arms, a mutagen, and access to some good buff spells, as well as bombs or sneak attack.


Sober Caydenite wrote:
Cass_Ponderovian wrote:
I'm trying to build a Kensei Magus, but am having a hard time picking a weapon. If I want to optimize it looks like weapon finesse and a high Dex score is a must, but the class also seems to be an excellent AoO class. I also feel like a higher crit range would be good. I realize there probably isn't a perfect weapon, but what would be a good on to use a a kensei? I really would like to avoid a scimitar. Thanks.

Since you will be using Int as if it were Dex, you coul go Str/Int and use a great terbutje. Bastard sword stats, but can be made of wyrroot for a steady influx of arcane pool points.

For supercheese take a one or two level dip in synthesist summoner; this allows you to completely dump Str and Dex, max out Int, get some natural armor, a stash of extra temporary hit points, the ability to cast mage armor, and some natural attacks. Pick up the extra arms evolution and you can use a two-handed weapon (like a wyrroot fauchard) with spell combat and spell strike.

Slightly less cheesy is a two-level dip in alchemist to get extra arms, a mutagen, and access to some good buff spells, as well as bombs or sneak attack.

People seem grossly misunderstand how a Synth works. Two levels of summoner would leave your Eidolon stuck at 2 HD and be useless to use its physical stats. Unless there is some way I don't know of to advance the Eidolon through other class leaves. Pretty sure there is not though.

Grand Lodge

What books are available?

What Races are available?


ButterKnife wrote:

One solid reason not to use Dervish is that in a home group it is liable to be banned due to cheese. In my opinion (and those of most of the people I game with), there is a huge balance problem with allowing dex to govern AC, attack AND damage rolls.

It's the first time I heared (read) someone claim it was too powerful. So this really tool me by surprise.

You pay for it with two feats and two skillpoints. I really don't think you are right.

If only because you still need 13 Strength to pick up power attack. Meaning you can't even dump strength with most DD builds.


Umbranus wrote:
ButterKnife wrote:

One solid reason not to use Dervish is that in a home group it is liable to be banned due to cheese. In my opinion (and those of most of the people I game with), there is a huge balance problem with allowing dex to govern AC, attack AND damage rolls.

It's the first time I heared (read) someone claim it was too powerful. So this really tool me by surprise.

You pay for it with two feats and two skillpoints. I really don't think you are right.

If only because you still need 13 Strength to pick up power attack. Meaning you can't even dump strength with most DD builds.

Piranha Strike makes a passable substitute for Power Attack for any finesse build. Besides, with the Magus you don't really need to power attack; most of your damage will be coming from the spells anyway.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
ButterKnife wrote:

One solid reason not to use Dervish is that in a home group it is liable to be banned due to cheese. In my opinion (and those of most of the people I game with), there is a huge balance problem with allowing dex to govern AC, attack AND damage rolls.

It's the first time I heared (read) someone claim it was too powerful. So this really tool me by surprise.

You pay for it with two feats and two skillpoints. I really don't think you are right.

If only because you still need 13 Strength to pick up power attack. Meaning you can't even dump strength with most DD builds.

Piranha Strike makes a passable substitute for Power Attack for any finesse build. Besides, with the Magus you don't really need to power attack; most of your damage will be coming from the spells anyway.

Piranha Strike doesn't work with dervish dance because the Scimitar isn't a light weapon.

And Butterknife just said DD is too strong, not that it's too strong for a magus. Thus my point about power attack is valid.


Darth Grall wrote:

I think cause of the lack of armor, a Kensai supports a higher dex than even a normal magus and hence why Dervish makes even more sense for him.

As for reach, you can always just take lunge to make it a reach weapon...

Lunge only works during your turn which makes it useless for AoOs.

I agree that DD is most optimal, but playing the same type of combat style over and over gets dull. I was just searching for new options.

The Exchange

Dervish Dance was the most optimal for a vanilla Magus build, but with the Agile weapon quality available now, it's really just trading a Feat (and some skill points) to save on gold these days.

The wakizashi is probably the best 'straight' Kensai weapon choice: same damage and threat range as a scimitar, yet it's also a light weapon (so can be used with Piranha Strike, and can be finessed with just Weapon Finesse) and has the deadly quality (for whatever that's worth...). Just save enough ca$h to slap the Agile quality on it and don't bother bumping your Strength higher than 10 (but don't dump it: after all you don't want a damage penalty in the levels before you can afford that +1 Agile Wakizashi...).


Or go strength Magus and use a bastard sword.

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