Need Help Making My Unarmed Striking Lore Warden

[Duskblade]

Alrighty, after looking over the fighter, I realized that making an unarmed striker would actually be very fun and easy. However, out of all the archetypes that I could choose from, the Lore Warden stood out the most. Why? Because the benefits are absolutely amazing!

1) Your CMB and CMD get outrageously high.
2) You actually get an enormous number of class skills.
3) More skill points mean you can do more from a roleplay perspective.
4) I will always welcome Combat Expertise over Bravery (especially since you can now easily qualify for a lot of good feats).

My basic gear will look something like this...

Monk's Robe
Mithral Breastplate (with Brawling property)
Dueling Gloves
Feather Step Slippers
Spectral Shroud

As you can see, I'm sort of optimizing for damage, and my feats will also be going into Two-weapon fighting and unarmed strikes. I've considered taking Combat Reflexes combined with Viscous Stomp and Greater Trip (provoking 2 attacks of opportunity on a successful trip, which is just plane nuts). I also want to add as many natural attacks to this build as possible (which is one reason why I haven't decided on the race yet).

Also, I'm looking for any items (aside from headband of intelligence of course) or feats that can give me more skill points or benefit my knowledge rolls.

And finally, if someone has a link to a Lore Warden guide or something, that would be great. :) Any help is always appreciated, and thanks again.

[Ughbash]

Ratehr then going for striking, build him for maneuvers.

Four levels of manuevermaster monk + 16 levels of Lore warden. Move around the battel field tripping people and taking their weapons. Vanaran works well for this since using maneuvers rather than damage you can leave str at 10 and they get +2 wis and Dex.

[Black Powder Chocobo]

Also, don't forget that you'll need proficiency in medium armor to use Mithril Breastplate. Oddly, Elven Chain counts as light armor for proficiency and you only lose 1 Max Dex bonus and 1 Armor Check penalty for switching to that.

If you want to deal the hurt, you gotta put points into Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity for 1.5x Str to your unarmed strikes. The ability to ignore difficult terrain and allies for charging is just gravy; this pairs well with the Hair's Breadth ability Lore Wardens get at level 11 due to the need for Acrobatics as a prereq for Dragon Style.

If you REALLY want to abuse this, go Oni-spawn Tiefling. +2 Str, +2 Wis, and you get Alter Self 1/day for another +2 Str. Tieflings can also get a bite attack or a pair of claw attacks as an alternate racial trait. Choose the Quain Martial Artist trait (for another +1 unarmed damage) and the Threatening Defender trait to reduce the Combat Expertise penalty by 1. Do note that Brawling and the Quain Martial Arts do not work for natural attacks, but if you want it, it's there.

Similar to what Ughbash suggested, a single dip into Manuever Master monk will go along way for higher unarmed strike damage, 2 feats for you (Imp Unarmed Strike and an Improved (maneuver) feat), and a boost to your saves, and Flurry of Manuevers (which you can do in armor! Free trip every full attack if you want your Vicious Stomp). A second level if you want another feat and evasion.

Just to ask, what level and point buy are you using?

[Rycaut]

Besides what others have pointed out re Mithral (which the Lore Warden can't use since he doesn't get Medium Armor and many of his features expect him to be wearing at most Light Armor) you might want to rethink the Gloves of Dueling as well - not all that useful for an unarmed Lore Warden (sure +2 to weapon training is nice but for just 5k more an amulet of might fists +2 could be better - either as a straight +2 on all unarmed or natural attacks or to add one or more special abilities to all of your attacks... )

Not sure what Pathfinder item you mean by a Spectral Shroud (I can't find that on D20PFSRD is it a 3.5 item?) or Feather Step Slippers for that matter. or the Brawling armor property.

[Duskblade]

as for the whole Mithral armor thing, all I need to take is armor expert trait (or just by comfort) and I can use it just fine.

some of those items are listed in the ultimate combat, and while all of them are not initially affordable, they are basically some of the things I'm aiming to obtain.

this character is starting out at level 1 with 25 point buy in.

Seeing as how acquiring natural attacks is such a difficult thing, I suppose I can just be a 'standard tiefling' and go that route (and maybe just buy a 'ring of rat fangs' in order to get another).

I did consider going with Crane Style rather than Dragon style (I think my damage with this build is pretty solid, but Crane Style would add a lot of versatility to my defense as well).

[Black Powder Chocobo]

Brawling is in the new Ultimate Equipment, and should be making its way to d20 if it isn't already. So ar the Spectral Shroud and Feather Step Slippers.

The benefit of the Duelist gloves is that its bonus would stack with the Amulet of Mighty Fists. However, the Amulet is (mostly) replaced with the Brawling property (+2 to attack/damage with unarmed strikes, they count as magical for DR purposes). The Amulet does have uses for other properties (flaming, speed, etc), but the cost of the Amulet is fairly prohibative to add the good stuff.

Personally, I think going more than 2 levels in monk would slow down the Lore Warden progression; he's going to be pretty feat starved and not going farther in Monk allows Wisdom to be lower.

If you want to go regular Tiefling (not a bad idea, elf works quite well, too), then go Dex unarmed fighter. Use an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and Weapon Finesse/Piranha Strike for solid damage, then just pick your favorite maneuevers and use Agile Maneuvers to add your Dex to 'em :)

Tiefling stats (25 pb)

Str 12
Dex 16+2
Con 14
Int 14+2
Wis 14
Cha 8-2

Elf would put the -2 into Con.

Other useful items:
D3liquescent Gloves (gloves): Add corrosive to your unarmed strikes.
Forge Fist Amulet (neck): Add flaming to your unarmed strikes, unarmed strikes count as Adamantine
Longarm Bracers (wrist): 3/day, swift action to add 5' to your reach; weapon attacks take a -4 penalty on attack rolls (unarmed/natural do not)

[Rycaut]

Comfort just allows you to sleep in armor - it doesn't change armor from Medium to Light.

Armor Expert just reduces the Armor Check Penalty - which is nice but also doesn't grant Medium Armor proficiency.

Also don't forget a few things about natural attacks:

- they don't get Iterative attacks as your BAB increases
- they don't apply Improved Unarmed Strike or other monk special abilities (flurry etc) if you go that route unless you take another feat
- they won't scale up due to things like Monk's robes

If you go the unarmed attacker route then I would indeed suggest a couple of levels of Monk (at least) possibly eventually up to 4 to get to a ki pool - if your Wis isn't a dump stat - and Maneuver Master would give up regular flurry of blows for flurry of maneuvers (which matches really well with Lore Warden). If your WIS is really low I would also consider a second monk archetype to substitute something else for Stunning Fist (since you won't likely be able to land it - monk of the four winds would give you elemental fist for a bit more damage).

[Tormad]

If he has no armor check penalty there is no penalty for not being prof with the armor. So he can wear medium or even heavy just fine, if you can find a way to get the ACP down to 0.

[Black Powder Chocobo]

Indeed Tormad, personally, I'd just use different armor than requiring a trait to cover things (I listed two good traits up above!).

[Rycaut]

Ah. Still would slow you down (if mithral heavy armor).

For the DEX build you may not need to spend a feat on Agile Maneuvers depending on the maneuvers you want to do Weapon Finesse may be sufficient (since unarmed/natural weapons are finesseable) so a DEX based Lore Warden can be really effective with Weapon Finesse (my Lore Warden wields a rapier and trips with it quite effectively)

I'd also suggest putting another point into STR and taking Power Attack over Piranha Strike. Allows you much greater flexibility in the future (and works well if you have just one primary natural attack since the damage on that attack would greatly increased over Piranha Strike)

Ultimate Equipment definitely has some nice things for Monks... going to have to get a copy soon.

[blackbloodtroll]

How do feel about using Claw Blades?

You can still get the Brawling property to apply with Feral Combat Training.

[Duskblade]

*sigh* okay...I guess I need to explain a couple of things:

1) I know how natural attacks works, but the reason I want them isn't to use them as primary attacks. I want them to be secondary (and I understand the penalties behind that).

However, considering the amount of damage I get from AoMF, Weapon Training, Dueling Gloves, and potentially MANY other feats, the extra attacks will quickly add up in damage all the same (trust me, in order to get the MOST out of AoMF...you really need to try and get ALL the natural attacks you can).

2) Mithral is what makes a breastplate count as light. If I need to, I can always get a Mithral Kikko (which has an armor check penalty of 0, and counts as light) and use that instead.

3) I don't need natural attacks to scale up with Monk's Robes, I just need them for the extra chances for damage.

Quain Martial Artist and Threatening Defender are both good calls for this character.

The reason I've considered going human is that IF I can somehow get more natural attacks (getting a bite attack is easy, but getting other ones without dipping into other classes or dumping a lot of feats is hard) I can also considering getting Martial Versitility into Martial Mastery, which will allow me to apply my weapon specialization feats to both unarmed strikes and natural attacks).

The funny thing is...with this build I am SEVERALY feat starved, so I'm trying to figure out the most effective way to make him.

Do I go Tiefling for claws, or can I go human and figure out another way to gain claws that won't cost me two feats (basically racial heritage can get me two claw attacks easy...but it requires two feats...with one of them pretty much being a 'dead feat')?

I do enjoy the idea of Crane Style, or the trip master, but I'm not sure if I can do both AND two-weapon fight :(

[Duskblade]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

How do feel about using Claw Blades?

You can still get the Brawling property to apply with Feral Combat Training.

the problem with claw blades is that they take natural attacks and make them into manufactured attacks (which will basically take away the very thing i need).

I mean, i'm not saying that I need to have claws specifically, but I'm trying to figure out how to be a pure Lore Warden, while being an unarmed fighter, while still being able to get as many natural attacks as possible.

Both my Weapon Training ability and my AoMF will benefit from this build, and while I know I can get a bite attack (either from the tusked trait or from the ring of rat fangs) I need to find other ways of getting more natural attacks if possible.

If I CAN stay human, then I can use Martial Mastery to apply my weapon focus and specialization feats to ALL my natural attacks as well, which would be just perfect for me.

[Duskblade]

actually, I have a question: would the Hat of Greater Disguise help?

I mean, it basically lets you use Alter Self at will right?

Could I use that to Alter Self into a Changeling perhaps (gaining +2 to strength and two claw attacks)

[blackbloodtroll]

You can go Scion of Humanity Angel-Blooded Aasimar, nab Racial Heritage for a Natural Attack granting feat, count as Human, and Aasimar, nab Metallic Wings for wing attacks, use Alter Self early on for natural attacks, and Martial Mastery later to have your combat feats apply to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.

[Duskblade]

I suppose that method could work...although it would cost 7 feats just to get 4 natural attacks.

I mean, getting a fly speed is always good though, and if I picked catfolk, I could also get claws.

so with 2 wings, 2 claws, and a bite (from either tusked or the ring of rat fangs), I basically have a pretty good start.

So with my remaining 13 feats....we have the two-weapon fighting tree (3 more) which takes us up to 10.

Then we have Improved unarmed strike, two-weapon rend, double slice, Martial mastery + versatility, Weapon focus + greater, Weapon specialization + greater. And then we have Multiattack.

Yea....so much for combat reflexes, toughness, Crane style, and trip master.

Wow...I really gotta figure out how to focus this guy down, cause I'm starting to get the impression that I'm trying to do too many things at once.

[blackbloodtroll]

You are starting to spread yourself thin.

The Claw Blades can come into play later, when your BAB hits 6.

[Black Powder Chocobo]

Mithril makes it count as light for all purposes EXCEPT proficiency. See here for clarification; while it uses full plate as the reference, the same principle applies. Elven Chain does specifically call out it uses light armor proficiency so it doesn't cause a problem other than the slightly lower Max Dex bonus and the higher Armor Check penalty.

The Hat would work if you want to turn into a form with claws.

Personally, while I understand you're trying to get more natural attacks, it seems like too much effort for so little gain and would be better off getting extra attacks via Combat Reflexes/Vicious Stomp and, if you feel particularly evil, Crane Style tree. Still a stretch on feats, but wholly viable

If you really wanted to go that route, you're better off Tiefling with claws, then take Imp Natural Attack (claws) to boost them to 1d6, perhaps going Master of Many Styles Monk if you also want to combine Dragon Style WITH Crane Style.

Human Dex based Manuever Master Monk feats:

stats:

Str 12
Dex 16+2
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

Level 1 (MM 1): Imp Unarmed Strike(b), Imp Trip(b), Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (MM 2): Imp Dirty Trick or other Imp Maneuver you like
Level 3 (LW 1): Combat Reflexes
Level 4 (LW 2): Combat Expertise(b), Vicious Stomp
Level 5 (LW 3): Wpn Focus (unarmed)
Level 6 (LW 4): Wpn Spec (unarmed)
Level 7 (LW 5): Greater Trip
Level 8 (LW 6): Improved Two Weapon Fighting

From then on, you'll probably want Crane Style tree, but I also suggest Greater Dirty Trick; pulling that off messes up foes like no one's business. Also assumes you'll get an Agile AoMF to deal reliable damage. Note that Weapon Finesse allows you to add your Dex when making Combat Maneuvers that involve weapons, such as trip. Dirty Trick is arguably on that list as well since you're going to use your hands/feet for them :)

Tiefling Oni-blood Clawed Str Based Master of Many Styles:

Str 16+2
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10+2
Cha 8-2

Level 1 (MoMS 1): Imp Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Dodge
Level 2 (MoMS 2): Dragon Ferocity
Level 3 (LW 1): Crane Style
Level 4 (LW 2): Combat Experise, Imp Natural Weapon (claw)
Level 5 (LW 3): Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 6 (LW 4): Crane Wing
Level 7 (LW 5): Power Attack
Level 8 (LW 6): Multiattack (I'd allow it since you have effectively 3 natural attacks (unarmed strike and 2 claws), but up to DM to let you get it, otherwise, get Imp Two Weapon Fighting early.

Now follow up the next 4 levels of Wpn Focus/Wpn Spec for Unarmed and Claws!

EDIT: Fixed a mistake on my part and spoilered the builds.

[Duskblade]

if you get your armor check penalty down to zero, you don't NEED proficiency to use the armor. You take NO penalties from doing so. A lack of proficiency only matters if there is an armor check penalty.

Also, the brawling property and AoMF DO stack (one his an enhancement bonus, the other is untyped).

[Black Powder Chocobo]

I realize that your point on Mithral above may have been on putting Brawling on the breastplate instead of proficiency, so my apologies. Still, I suggest avoiding the use of a trait that selecting a different armor can correct.

Also, I missed the part on Brawling; I always thought it was an enhancement, but since it just adds to the damage/attack rolls, then cool! Edited my post above to correct my mistake.

[Rycaut]

And note that allowing a player to take monster feats like Improved Natural Weapon and Multiattack w/o being a class that specifically allows it (i.e. Ranger with Natural Weapon style) is a DM call. It isn't a huge stretch or unreasonable call so many DMs would allow it - but I think technically it isn't RAW.

While there are also arguments I would probably tend towards taking Lore Warden first then Monk if human for the higher HP at 1st level (build doesn't matter if you don't survive the low levels) - between max HP at first level & favored class (as HP) you would start with a few more HP than starting as a monk. Balanced a bit by not getting the monk feats.

Also I think the person suggesting the human builds (and the tiefling build) missed some feats you would get (i.e. your level 3 regular feat specifically since you also get a bonus feat with the first level of Lore Warden you take)

Look at the Tiefling alternative racial traits as well as tiefling specific feats - Armor of the Pit might be worth taking instead of Dodge if were you taking Dodge as a regular feat (not a monk bonus feat) (+2 natural armor).

Another approach to consider instead of a dip into Monk would be whether there is a build that would eventually go Dragon Disciple that would fit your theme and concept (requires a dip into a spontaneous casting arcane class but would get you STR bonuses, breath weapon, more natural attacks etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd suggest dipping into Master of Many Styles Monk to get the d6 base damage and free IUS, among other things. I wouldn't want to blow all that money on the robe. Just my opinion...

You are on the right track. Use weapon training and gobs of secondary natural attacks combined w/ your unarmed routine to put out high full attack damage that puts the monk to shame. You want a race w/ a str bonus, but also access to natural attacks. Half-Orc w/ tusked gets you some of each, but it is tempting to go for a race w/ more natural attack options. I guess Oni-Spawned Tiefling w/ Scaled Skin and Maw or Claw (choosing claws) w/ Adopted (Tusked) is the best choice... And prehensile tail, just because.

[Rycaut]

heck consider also getting the vestigial wings trait (in place of skilled) to round out the picture (and get a +4 to Fly when you actually get a method for flight - though as fighter who really would want full attacks you might be looking for clerics w/air walk to get up in the air... and at possible ways to get Pounce if you can...)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sample layout for a build:

Lore Warden Fighter 2 / MoMS Monk 1 / Lore Warden X

Feats:

1 whatever
1 Combat Reflexes [Fighter]
2 whatever
2 whatever [Fighter]
2 Combat Expertise [Fighter]
3 IUS [Monk]
3 Snake Style
3 Snake Fang [Monk]
3 Stunning Fist [Monk]

Until level 3, you just use a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. Whatever. Once you hit level 3, you can now get an unarmed AoO every single time someone attacks you, and once/round after hitting with it, get another attack as well.
Feel free to add a 2nd style in there, you can maintain 2. I've always liked Crane + Snake combo, myself. Dragon Style is decent, too.

[Black Powder Chocobo]

@Rycaut, thanks for catching my feat mistake! Updated my builds above (barely in time).

Bullocks! Just missed the window. In that case, you can move up Vicious Stomp for the human build and use the level 4 feat for Piranha strike for extra damage, and the Tiefling build move up Two Weapon Fighting (and Multiattack, if your DM allows unarmed strike + 2 claws as a total of 3 natural attacks).