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I just threw together a rough Fighter [Brawler] 12 using the feats stated by Duskblade (with hammer the gap replaced with Cornugon Smash just because I really hate Hammer the Gap). 20 point buy. Standard wealth. Doesn't have Gloves of Duelling because it works with weapon training which the brawler doesn't have. Rejiggle equipment as necessary if you want them and think it adds anything.
Unnamed Hero
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Fighter (Brawler) 12
LE Medium Outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 112 (12d10+24)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +6 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities Bravery +3; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite (Tusked) +16 (1d4+10/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Maw or Claw (Claws)) +16 x2 (1d4+10/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +23/+18/+13 (1d8+28/x2)
Special Attacks Close Combatant +3/+5
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Statistics
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Str 20/24, Dex 17/19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +19 (+22 Bull Rushing, +22 Dragging, +22 Repositioning); CMD 35 (38 vs. Bull Rush, 38 vs. Drag, 38 vs. Reposition)
Feats Cornugon Smash, Double Slice, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack -4/+8, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed strike)
Traits Adopted, Quain Martial Artist, Tusked
Skills Acrobatics +3, Climb +10, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +15, Perception +7, Ride +3, Stealth +5, Swim +10
Languages Common, Infernal
SQ Menacing Stance -2/-5, No Escape
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Breastplate; Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (deep red sphere), Monk's robe, Ring of protection +1
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 Will save vs. Fear
Close Combatant +3/+5 (Ex) +3 to hit and +5 damage with close weapons.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Menacing Stance -2/-5 (Ex) Adjacent foes take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -5 penalty to concentration checks.
No Escape (Ex) Withdrawing or taking a 5-foot step away from brawler provokes attack of opportunity.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
I just threw together a rough Fighter [Brawler] 12 using the feats stated by Duskblade (with hammer the gap replaced with Cornugon Smash just because I really hate Hammer the Gap). 20 point buy. Standard wealth. Doesn't have Gloves of Duelling because it works with weapon training which the brawler doesn't have. Rejiggle equipment as necessary if you want them and think it adds anything.
** spoiler omitted **...
weapon training/dueling gloves is one of the major things that sets them apart. also I'm fairly certain you should have more unarmed attacks from your TWF feats.
and giving up HtG for cornugon smash and your weapon trainings does hurt your dpr (point of the comparisons here) somewhat.
great build either way.
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Brawlers have a better version of weapon training for this (+3 to hit/+5 damage vs. +3/+3) but it specifically isn't weapon training so the duelling gloves don't work. The damage with duelling gloves is the same at this point but it saves 15,000gp.
Hammer the Gap can be put in with no problem. And yes, there should be more unarmed strikes but damned if I can figure a way to add them in herolab. (for two weapon fighting with other weapons you just add a second weapon, no way to add a second unarmed strike).
I was just putting it out so that there was a 'complete' build so stop the complaing :)
edit - I had written 'so stop the complaining' when I meant 'to stop'. Oops. Bad typo!
Brawlers have a better version of weapon training for this (+3 to hit/+5 damage vs. +3/+3) but it specifically isn't weapon training so the duelling gloves don't work. The damage with duelling gloves is the same at this point but it saves 15,000gp.
Hammer the Gap can be put in with no problem. And yes, there should be more unarmed strikes but damned if I can figure a way to add them in herolab. (for two weapon fighting with other weapons you just add a second weapon, no way to add a second unarmed strike).
I was just putting it out so that there was a 'complete' build so stop the complaing :)
your reasoning is noted and my complai--er, opinion has changed accordingly.
also i had no idea you were using herolab. i apologize for getting on you about the extra attacks then.
s'all cool.
also the HP, AC, and saves are irrelevant, since these two are competing in DPR, not survivability.
It's not irrelevant. A completelly umplayable character is proof of nothing. You can do a lot of theorycrafting characters that do a ton of damage on paper, but don't work at all on table, because they die, and the DPR of a dead character is zero. I somewhat expect this suggested monk with +4 AoMF and 90% of the gold spent on damage, and str 20 to start with, will have a pitiful hp, pitiful AC, and wouldn't be a viable character at all. The problem with monks start with its MAD requirement. A fighter can push his str much more than a monk, and handweaving this is of no help for the purpose of this debate.
It's not irrelevant. A completelly umplayable character is proof of nothing. You can do a lot of theorycrafting characters that do a ton of damage on paper, but don't work at all on table, because they die, and the DPR of a dead character is zero. I somewhat expect this suggested monk with +4 AoMF and 90% of the gold spent on damage, and str 20 to start with, will have a pitiful hp, pitiful AC, and wouldn't be a viable character at all. The problem with monks start with its MAD requirement. A fighter can push his str much more than a monk, and handweaving this is of no help for the purpose of this debate.also the HP, AC, and saves are irrelevant, since these two are competing in DPR, not survivability.
I get what you mean, but these two are arguing on "who can unarmed strike better", not "who can unarmed strike better and survive to that level" (who knows, maybe the two characters the posted builds represent are two who got lucky and were carted around by a completely competent party for those 12 levels).
though that isn't to say that clause couldn't or shouldn't be added for builders to consider.
Well on the one hand this seems like another monk hate thread and of that I disapprove on the grounds that people can't seem to drop the subject. Monks eventually get 2d10s with all unarmed strikes which is more than any weapon short of a siege weapon. I still don't like monks though, which seems to be the point you all are devoting to multiple successive threads and often with pages long arguments that ultimately lose the attention of your opponent for being overly wordy and then call it a victory because they didn't pick apart your entire 4 page argument. Any way LOVE THE BRAWLER BUILD! veery well done and informative example of an unarmed fighter type.Almost makes me want to roll one for my next character!
THX @ Ashiel.
20 point buy is cheesy, go 15.
You're very welcome Hayato Ken. Also yes, 15 point buy is standard, so I agree that builds should be rated based it as well.
Well on the one hand this seems like another monk hate thread and of that I disapprove on the grounds that people can't seem to drop the subject. Monks eventually get 2d10s with all unarmed strikes which is more than any weapon short of a siege weapon.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything except aesthetics. The average damage of 2d10 is 11. Maximum 20, minimum 2. The difference between a butterknife and a greatsword at 20th level is trivial. Instead the static modifiers are what ultimately matters unless you can get some really huge variable rolls such as greater vital strike tyrannosaurs.
In fact, the only reason Greatswords have any real significant difference between themselves and daggers is because of Power Attack and the 2 handed bonus. When you have +15 to damage from strength and +18 damage from Power attack, the fact daggers deal an average of 2.5 damage and longswords deal 4.5 damage is. In fact, at high levels the damage difference from a longsword (4.5 damage) versus a greatsword (7 damage) is negligible if they're both being 2 handed with power attack (which is why I'm rather partial to longswords since you can easily go from wielding a shield to 2 handing them and back again).
EDIT: Which is to say that the only way a monk could really shine due to having their 2d10 base damage (which absolutely sucks compared to the damage bonuses of other classes, which also come with significant bonuses to hit as well), would be if the monk was enlarged and had all the vital strike feats. Assuming the damage for a large monk (4d8) and greater vital strike (16d8) you could deal around 72 damage as a standard action. Unfortunately a real martial can do much more than that, and doesn't put all their eggs in one basket. This would at least allow the monk to be mobile and attack (move action + standard action) but the damage is poor, and his BAB is not very special (no flurry, so just +15 base, no bonuses to hit from class, etc) which means you'll miss fairly frequently.
Personally i don't hate monks, i just think they're handled terribly within the rules. they get a wide (if restrictive) assortment of skills and abilities, which accomplishes all of letting you emulate other classes and pulling you in lots of directions at once (which will stab you in the freaking neck should you try to work outside the little box designated for the class).
their ki pool does not stack with other ki pools (ninja, specifically). you get no armor without willingly shucking off a good deal of class abilities. some items and abilities are genuinely useful and that seem like they were designed with monks in mind turn out to be giant flaming middle fingers aimed at them instead (the brawling enchant, bodywraps of mighty strike, necklace of ki serenity). They're pretty frontloaded (a good thing, but basically makes anything past level 3-4 completely optional) in a system that Does Not Like Dipping.
that nifty 2d10 you point out comes in at 15th level (hooray, your campaign probably ends next level) and requires a (pretty cheap and very useful up-until-20th-level at which point it serves only to modify stunning fist) magic item to have at that point--then again the same could be said of things like the silver smite gauntlet/(wrist thing) of the avenging knight. which actually isn't that much of a negative.
you're a class that favors mobility (speed increase, abundant step, combat maneuvers like bull rush--though that's a bit of a suboptimal choice) but can't really do too much unless they're standing still and very lucky. The class is a creature of chaos (which is hilarious, given the alignment restriction).
I love the idea, but mechanically the class is required to put a lot of effort and money into simply functioning in the first place.
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On my build, no the attack wasn't penalised. Multi-attack wasn't doing it either. I just went and asked on the forum and Aaron said that the work around was to create a custom weapon which I have done.
This is how it should look I think.
Fists Aplenty
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Fighter (Brawler) 12
LE Medium Outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 112 (12d10+24)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +6 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities Bravery +3; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite (Tusked) +20 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Maw or Claw (Claws)) +20 x2 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +25/+20/+10 (1d8+20/x2)
. . Unarmed strike +25/+20+10 (1d8+20/x2)
Special Attacks Close Combatant +3/+5
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Statistics
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Str 20/24, Dex 17/19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +19 (+22 Bull Rushing, +22 Dragging, +21 Grappling, +22 Repositioning); CMD 35 (38 vs. Bull Rush, 38 vs. Drag, 38 vs. Reposition)
Feats Double Slice, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Hammer the Gap, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack -4/+8, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Adopted, Quain Martial Artist, Tusked
Skills Acrobatics +3, Climb +10, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +15, Perception +5, Ride +3, Stealth +7, Swim +10
Languages Common, Infernal
SQ Brawling, Menacing Stance -2/-5, No Escape
Combat Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, Off-hand Unarmed Strike, Off-hand Unarmed Strike; Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (deep red sphere), Monk's robe, Ring of protection +1
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 Will save vs. Fear
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Close Combatant +3/+5 (Ex) +3 to hit and +5 damage with close weapons.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Menacing Stance -2/-5 (Ex) Adjacent foes take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -5 penalty to concentration checks.
No Escape (Ex) Withdrawing or taking a 5-foot step away from brawler provokes attack of opportunity.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Again, because of the cludge of having to manually create a new weapon I'm not entirely sure.
TWF penalties are included. Power Attack isn't 'turned on'.
As ashiel said, doing 2d10 + 20 or doing 1d3 +28, have little difference. The average is the same, and you get higher maximum damage at the cost of lower minimum damage.
That said, the reason why fighters are better at pure brawling damage, is not because they have better average damage (which they probably also do), but because they have better to hit chance (thanks to weapon training and greater weapon focus)
Also this is not monk hating. It's just stating math facts. That a fighter does higher unarmed damage than a monk does not equate to fighters being better than monks, as monks have other features (such as feather fall and what not). Fighters also do better unarmed damage than Wizards, and that does not mean fighters are better than wizards. If monks are better or worse than fighters is an enterely different debate, based into subjetive views, like flavor, and also a debate I don't really care about. I'm just talking about a pure math fact, which is easily measurable.
One thing I find amusing, is that everyone focuses on the fighter using naked fists. There are things like gauntlets, cesti, brass knuckles etc that all basically modify unarmed attacks that are far, far better for a fighter (or even a monk in some cases) to use in a brawling match.
Yes, I know, its a minor quibble, but honestly, seems to me like the focus is less on whether or not armor gimps a monk (depends on the build/campaign honestly, sometimes yes, sometimes no) and more on who hits harder. And if its going to be who hits harder, why is the fighter gimping himself? Even going the brawler route, there's no reason a fighter shouldn't use brawling weapons.
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I've just given up on making a new unarmed strike weapon and given him brass knuckles. Don't have to buy an AoMF or a Monk's robe or spend a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. Even buying two brass knuckles he ends up about 20k better off.
although the reason in the other build was so you can get off claws, bites and unarmed strikes where you won't be able to do that with brass knuckles etc.
Yes, krigare. I'd make a build later with a cestus-using fighter, if I have time. I'd also not use tusked/clawed stuff, to make it mroe "generic" (as a Oni-looking character might not be easy to play in regular games). I honestly think I can make a character that do more brawling damage than a monk, without needing to use natural attacks.
Oh, I can and have built a brawler that uses cesti and yes, he out damages a monk. As far as the claws/tusks stuff, its neat, but honestly, not worth it IMO. Yes, its ome extra damage, but itrequires a lot of swap this for that not all DMs are going to happy with, and overall, the math I did(may or may not be 100% accurate, but close enough I'd put money on it) says you get less DPR going that route over using cesti.
If anyone really cares I can post up (most of) the build on my lunch break in a bit.
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(Dodging the raging debate) I think the OP makes a good point, although I don't really agree with the conclusions he draws from that point.
The idea that a Monk has a better AC with an armour and a shield bonus to AC sounds obvious when you spell it out, but is one of those things that can be missed by players because they focus so much on the 'un-armoured' aspect of the Monk's class features. It's pretty universal that the more different types of bonuses you can get to one thing, the better, due to the rules on stacking bonuses. However, where I personally disagree with the conclusion drawn is that the Monk should wear armour and carry a shield to get those armour and shield bonuses. I feel a more constructive question would be 'what other ways can a Monk gain armour and shield bonuses, without wearing armour and using a shield'.
Taking the vanilla Monk, the loss of flurry of blows is pretty dire in and of itself. It's the thing which makes a Monk 'pseudo-full BAB' - without it he's already falling behind. It's also the functional equivalent of at least two Feats (Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice) even at level 1, so giving it up is giving up a big chunk of the guy's Class Features straight off the bat.
More importantly, the Monk's AC bonus is a better type of bonus than armour or shield bonuses. Armour and shield bonuses add to AC and flat-footed AC. The Monk's AC bonus adds to AC, flat-footed AC, touch AC, and CMD.
There's a smattering of other ways out there to get armour or shield bonuses without wearing armour or using a shield, but the standard way is to use magic.
Mage Armour is the easy solution to the Monk's lack of armour bonus. Ideally he'll have a friend to cast it on him as needed; if necessary he can always pay for a wand of it (at the low, low, price of 750gp, or 15gp a charge) for his buddy to use on him. Use Magic Device is an option for the Monk, but probably not an easy one as it's generally a long way outside his comfort zone Ability Score and Skill-wise.
In the worst case, a Billy-no-mates Monk can always stock up on potions of Mage Armour. They're only 50gp each. So for the 16,000gp cost of +4 Bracers of Armour the Monk could buy 320 potions of Mage Armour. Assuming 20 encounters as an average between levels, that's enough to get the guy to level 17. If the Monk hits encounters less than an hour apart it's less and (gods forbid) if some of those encounters aren't anything to do with combat then he needs less still. Of course once he can afford +5 Bracers of Armour (or if he just finds a pair lying about or whatever) then he should consider them, but just quaffing a few potions gives him a reasonable low-level armour bonus of +4.
Shield is a bit trickier, being a personal ranged spell. No potions to quaff there, and no mates casting it on our poor un-protected Monk. There's always UMD, of course, but if the Monk is really concerned with his AC he could make his life easier with a 1 level dip into an Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer: Wisdom powers his class features, he can take Mage Armour and Shield as his two spells known, he can spam wands of Sorcerer spells, and even gets the Heavenly Fire minor attack / healing power.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that a Monk needs such a class dip to be functional - far from it (with the numerous options in Ultimate Combat alone Monks were more than 'fixed' if they ever needed to be) - but it's an option for a Monk worried about his lack of armour and shield.
Looking at it another way, to 'make up for' his lack of armour a level 1 Monk may need a +4 Wisdom bonus to match a chainmail shirt, but at the other end of the scale he only needs a +9 Wisdom bonus by level 20 to match +5 full plate. Assuming by then he's got a +5 inherant bonus, and a +6 enhancement bonus from a headband, and has put all 5 Ability Score increases from leveling into Wisdom, then he'd only needed to have started off with a modest Wisdom of 12. That's for his bonus AC to match the best armour possible... but, of course, he can have an armour bonus to AC himself too, so by that point he's way out in front of a guy wearing armour who has no other 'unique' bonuses like the Monk does. Naturally, most characters are more likely to fall between the two extremes, but the point is that a Monk not wearing armour or using a shield has an addition source of AC, since there are other ways to gain an armour or shield bonus, but no other ways to gain the Monk's unique AC bonus.
We all know the Monk is a MAD class, but even assuming a standard 15pt buy and not cheesing the dump stats that's a basic 14/14/16 for his good Ability Scores (including racial bonus). Assuming that's Strength/Dexterity/Wisdom, that gives the Monk a 1st level AC of 15. Not brilliant, but as good as a non-tank Fighter who didn't up his Dexterity and is wearing a scale shirt (which is likely all he'll be paying for at level 1). Unlike the Fighter the Monk can also really benefit from the team Sorcerer casting Mage Armour on him, upping his level 1 AC to 19. Still not 'tank' level, but pretty good. If he instead spent the majority of his pityful starting ca$h on studded leather and a heavy wooden shield he'd have an AC of 17... no real class features he could use, and a hideous -3 (nonproficient) ACP too.
So... it doesn't really seem like a worthwhile payoff to me at level 1 or level 20, and I doubt it's a good payoff at any level in between either. Now, I'm sure you can spend Feats, dip classes, and do various things to make a armoured Monk more worthwhile, but it's really hammering a square peg into a round hole for no particularly good reason, as far as I can tell.
Non-vanilla Monks may well be a slightly different kettle of fish, of course. The 'loophole' of Class Features which replace flurry of blows not being restricted by armour helps with the Monk's offense. However, that loss of the Monk's unquie AC bonus is still going to hurt. In any case, if you really want to play an armoured Monk then the Sohei is a perfectly reasonable archetype.
Of course, as far as general Monk AC advice goes, using the Qinggong archetype to replace the limited scope slow fall Class Feature with Barkskin as a Ki Power seems almost a 'must'. Sure, in the long term it's only saving the Monk ca$h on an Amulet of Natural Armour, but I like it! :)
@Duskblade: Thanks for showing how to build a monk with armor. I have done so in the past myself - though only as an exercise, not for real play - and with all the new archetypes allowing you to swap out abilities that are hindered by armor it's a much easier option.
I would point out that I do not think it's worth it since you are still losing major benefits as touch AC bonus and CMD bonus, but if you are fine with it, it's a cool option :-)
I did not want to include this in the other post since it's essentially not the original topic... Regarding the "discussion" between lantzkev and duskblade: I would like to see those real builds of a fighter and barbarian, too. Often the devil is in the details... Just a few points:
- Power attack is halved on all off-hand attacks and secondary natural weapon attacks, which all those claw and barbarian/fighter off-hand attacks are made with. In addition, all those claws only work at half-strength bonus - double slice does not improve this. A monk's flurry has no off-hand attack, so all his attacks are made at full power-attack bonus
- In order for a barbarian/fighter to go with the two-weapon fighting feats, a high dex is required (min. 19 to get all of them). This means that other stats have to be lowered, so there is no way this kind of character can focus only strength. A monk does not require this, though.
- While a 12th level fighter/barbarian with monk robes and improved unarmed strike feat does 1d8 damage, a 12th level monk with monk robes already does 2d8 - a +4 on average, already almost negating the supposed advantage of brawling armor, weapon training and dueling gloves. This needs to be figured in, the funds are available to boos it in other ways (e.g. a better AoMF or stat boosters).
- A monk attacks with full bab in a flurry, so there is no advantage for a fighter/barbarian there, power attack damage scales the same etc.
I am not saying it's not possible, but I would really like to see that build. At this point it just looks strange, as do the total damage calculations.
A couple of things:
1) using gauntlets (or any weapon in 2 hands rather than getting improved unarmed strike) negates the ability to use your claws (thus reducing your natural attacks.
2) I suggest armor for the monk mostly for the brawling property and fortification special property (AC is worthless...the only AC REALLY worth having is touch AC, and even then its not really needed).
3) This was NOT meant to be a 'bash the monk' thread. This was simply a 'hey, lets give example of some of the best unarmed striking classes in the game'.
4) If you give up natural attacks, I have no idea how you are keeping up in damage for an 'unarmed striker'. The very cornerstone of using Amulet of mighty fists LITERALLY depends on getting those natural attacks. If you're just doing something like enchanting gauntlets or whatnot, I honestly don't think you can keep up in the damage department.
5)I can assure you that even without including the exact stats (if you want to use 15 point buy in, that's fine) the fighter build that I suggested can easily survive to make it to level 12 (STR>DEX>CON>INT>WIS>CHA). I'm not saying that he will be a skill monkey of course, but he will have all the tools to survive to that level (and do so very effectively mind you).
6) Yes, a Brawler would probably be a more effective archetype to choose for this comparison. I mainly picked the Lore Warden partly because of the competence bonus from 'know thy enemy', but mostly because I like my fighters with a larger array of skills (especially the knowledge skills which can contribute more to the party)
A couple of things:
1) using gauntlets (or any weapon in 2 hands rather than getting improved unarmed strike) negates the ability to use your claws (thus reducing your natural attacks.
2) I suggest armor for the monk mostly for the brawling property and fortification special property (AC is worthless...the only AC REALLY worth having is touch AC, and even then its not really needed).
3) This was NOT meant to be a 'bash the monk' thread. This was simply a 'hey, lets give example of some of the best unarmed striking classes in the game'.
4) If you give up natural attacks, I have no idea how you are keeping up in damage for an 'unarmed striker'. The very cornerstone of using Amulet of mighty fists LITERALLY depends on getting those natural attacks. If you're just doing something like enchanting gauntlets or whatnot, I honestly don't think you can keep up in the damage department.
5)I can assure you that even without including the exact stats (if you want to use 15 point buy in, that's fine) the fighter build that I suggested can easily survive to make it to level 12 (STR>DEX>CON>INT>WIS>CHA). I'm not saying that he will be a skill monkey of course, but he will have all the tools to survive to that level (and do so very effectively mind you).
6) Yes, a Brawler would probably be a more effective archetype to choose for this comparison. I mainly picked the Lore Warden partly because of the competence bonus from 'know thy enemy', but mostly because I like my fighters with a larger array of skills (especially the knowledge skills which can contribute more to the party)
1) Correct, I assumed you are using feet etc.
2) Understood. I definitely disagree about the importance of touch AC, though. Also, your CMD suffers.3) Understood :-) However, since you are basically stating "monks are much worse than my barbarian/fighter/something" without showing a real build, it somewhat comes across as monk bashing. At least to me.
4) It is a fair point, but you are overstating the benefits of claw attacks IMO. You gain a lot of good advantages, but no monk benefits like the advantage of overcoming adamantine/lawful/etc. DRs.
5) This is what I doubt, and I want to see your build for that.
6) Brawler is really cool, it lacks weapon training though - depends on your build then, if the gloves of dueling and the versatility are better.
So I reiterate: Please show your build. You have provided lots of pieces, I would like to see and assess the complete picture. Maybe it's something I can take as an idea for a future character :-)
A couple of things:
1) using gauntlets (or any weapon in 2 hands rather than getting improved unarmed strike) negates the ability to use your claws (thus reducing your natural attacks.
2) I suggest armor for the monk mostly for the brawling property and fortification special property (AC is worthless...the only AC REALLY worth having is touch AC, and even then its not really needed).
3) This was NOT meant to be a 'bash the monk' thread. This was simply a 'hey, lets give example of some of the best unarmed striking classes in the game'.
4) If you give up natural attacks, I have no idea how you are keeping up in damage for an 'unarmed striker'. The very cornerstone of using Amulet of mighty fists LITERALLY depends on getting those natural attacks. If you're just doing something like enchanting gauntlets or whatnot, I honestly don't think you can keep up in the damage department.
5)I can assure you that even without including the exact stats (if you want to use 15 point buy in, that's fine) the fighter build that I suggested can easily survive to make it to level 12 (STR>DEX>CON>INT>WIS>CHA). I'm not saying that he will be a skill monkey of course, but he will have all the tools to survive to that level (and do so very effectively mind you).
6) Yes, a Brawler would probably be a more effective archetype to choose for this comparison. I mainly picked the Lore Warden partly because of the competence bonus from 'know thy enemy', but mostly because I like my fighters with a larger array of skills (especially the knowledge skills which can contribute more to the party)
Some of the stuff your going off of really is subject to a DM as is. Improved unarmed strike the way you are using it to attack with claws is great, but if you use multi weapon fighting instead of two weapon fighting you could do the same. And honestly, the brawler arch type isn't the only way to go, a straight fighter can do it as well.
Not using a brawl aid like gauntlets/cesti etc in general forces you into using a suboptimal magic item, so I'm not really sold on your build at all. Not without seeing the whole thing, started out and everything. The extra attacks aren't horrible, but much like your idea with the monks extra attacks from ki/Medusa's and all, overall its not that impressive. I get off work and will be home in about 4 hours, I'll post up a brawler style fighter and show you why I'm not sold then. I'll have to scale him down a few levels, he was made for a 20th level game, but that won't take to long.
And yes, I'm talking about just the fighter, for a barbarian its a whole different ball game as far as all this is concerned.
I don't own all the books in herolabs, so I have to change a few stuff manually. Hope I didn't mess it too much.
crush
Human (Tian-Shu) Fighter 12
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 16, flat-footed 22 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 101 (12d10+24)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +10
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Power attacking +3 Cestus +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15 (1d4+30, or 1d4+26 off hand/17-20/x2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20/26, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 35 (+3 vs bull rush, drag and reposition)
Feats Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Weapon Focus (cestus), Greater Weapon Specialization (cestus), Improved Critical (Cestus), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack -4/+8, bleeding Critical, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (cestus), Weapon Specialization (cestus)
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Combat Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +3 Spiked gauntlet; Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of giant strength +6, Ioun Stone (cracked pale green), Ring of protection +2, Boots of Haste, cloak of resistance +3
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Close Combatant +3/+5 (Ex) +3 to hit and +5 damage with close weapons.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of feather falling Feather fall activates if you fall more than 5 ft.
Bleeding Critical Critical hit 2d6 bleed damage.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Menacing Stance -2/-5 (Ex) Adjacent foes take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -5 penalty to concentration checks.
No Escape (Ex) Withdrawing or taking a 5-foot step away from brawler provokes attack of opportunity.
Versatile human (give up skill and feat, for +2 to second ability)
Using the boots of haste that you buy with the gold you save from the Monk Robe. With the gold you save from the very expensive AoMF, you buy an upgrade to +6 str belt. You have +26 armor, which stack with the -2 to attack that those in your threatened zone have. If you hit with both fists, you get +1d10+12 free damage, and if you get a crit (not that difficult with 7 attacks and crit 17+) you do +2d6 bleed damage. Next level, you´ll stagger people with your crits.
I am not familiar with non-standard races. I tried to create a vanilla monk build that approaches minotarian's build above.
Str Monk
Human Monk 12
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 99 (12d8+24)
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +11; +2 vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +21/+16 (2d8+15/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+5/+5/+0, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22/26, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 14/16, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling); CMD 37 (39 vs. Grapple)
Feats Dodge, Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds, Dragon Style, Great Fortitude, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -3/+6, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 19), Toughness +12, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Poverty-Stricken, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+31 jump, +27 to jump), Climb +12, Escape Artist +15, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +18, Ride +4, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +4, Survival +8, Swim +12
Languages Common
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +7, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool (9 ki), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 60', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use)
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of giant strength +4, Bracers of armor +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Monk's robe, Ring of protection +2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +7 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point) (Ex) +12 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
I do not have the dragon empires book, so I did not use it. So you could swap out one of the traits for one point more damage.
About 6000 GP are left for minor gear. AC could be higher as can be saves (simply rearrange or spend some money on cloaks of resistance), but for the purpose of comparing it I did not attempt to excel minotorian's sample build.
Note that you could take the martial artist, take weapon specialization (unarmed strike) and thus increase the damage by 2 per hit.
The values above include dragon style already.
Attack values would be
- +21/+16 (2d8+15) without flurry
- +21 (4d8+15) vital strike
- +22/+22/+17/+17/+12 (2d8+15) with flurry
- +22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 (2d8+15) with flurry and 1 ki for extra attack
- +22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 (2d8+15) with flurry and medusa's wrath
- +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 (2d8+15) with flurry, medusa's wrath and 1 ki for extra attack
With power attack those values become
- +18/+13 (2d8+21) without flurry
- +18 (4d8+21) vital strike
- +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+23) with flurry
- +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+23) with flurry and 1 ki for extra attack
- +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+23) with flurry and medusa's wrath
- +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+23) with flurry, medusa's wrath and 1 ki for extra attack
This looks quite acceptable to me. Comparing it to minotarian's ("MB") build is interesting:
For full attacks with secondary:
+23/+18/+13 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+28/x2)
+16 bite (1d4+10/x2)
+16/+16 claw (1d4+10/x2)
With power attack, that becomes
+19/+14/+11 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+36/x2)
+12 bite (1d4+14/x2)
+12/+12 claw (1d4+14/x2)
For full attacks with off-hand and natural attacks:
+21/+16/+11 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+28/x2)
+21/+16/+11 unarmed strike off-hand (1d8+28/x2)
+14 bite (1d4+10/x2)
+14/+14 claw (1d4+10/x2)
With power attack, that becomes
+17/+12/+7 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+36/x2)
+17/+12/+7 unarmed strike off-hand (1d8+32/x2)
+10 bite (1d4+14/x2)
+10/+10 claw (1d4+14/x2)
It is a lot less likely to hit with the claw attacks in that mode.
I am not sure who posted it, but someone mentioned going against an AC of 15+level for comparison, resulting in AC 27 to be hit. Doing that this means for my Vanilla Monk ("VM") and MB, assuming 10 rolled:
Full attack + secondary vs. flurry:
MB: 2 hits (unarmed strikes) -> 2x32.5 = 65 dmg
VM: 4 hits -> 4x23.5 = 94 dmg
Full attack + off-hand + secondary vs. flurry + ki:
MB: 2 hits (unarmed strikes) -> 2x32.5 = 65 dmg
VM: 4 hits -> 5x23.5 = 117.5 dmg
Power Attack + full attack + secondary vs. flurry:
MB: 1 hit (unarmed strikes) -> 1x40.5 = 40.5 dmg
VM: 2 hits -> 2x31.5 = 63 dmg
Power Attack + full attack + off-hand + secondary vs. flurry +ki :
MB: 2 hits (unarmed strikes) -> 40.5+36.5 = 77 dmg
VM: 3 hits -> 3x31.5 = 94.5 dmg
This does not factor in criticals, obivously. Neither did I factor in Medusa's wrath, which should up the damage for VM significantly in a lot of situations. On the other hand, MB misses out by 1 in many cases - this could certainly be improved. On the other hand, by choosing martial artist - or maybe better feats, I did not really optimize here - damage would increase for VM as well.
VM has more class features and a lot better defenses, so that is a bonus. It also overcomes more types of damage reduction and has better movement options.
I understand that minotorian probably did not truly optimize it. I tried to reach mostly the same stats (AC, to hit etc.), though, so that should be fine for a comparison.
As a conclusion I would say, that monk is quite acceptable, and cause create significant damage.
Please point out errors I made, I am not very used to making comparisons like that :-)
edit: Fixed a small unarmed strike error in the stat block, added ki pool size.
Just to follow up on my build: Swap vital strike and toughness for dazzling display and shatter defenses. Dragon ferocity makes it that a successful stunning fist attempt or a critical hit renders an opponent shaken. Shatter defenses lets you treat those foes as flat-footed, which should increase the to-hit even further.
To add to my previous post, here the sample of a martial artist ("MA") variant focusing on stunning/critically hitting and - via shatter defenses - leaving opponents flat-footed and thus increasing the chance to hit greatly. I chose improved critical over medusa's wrath, so that may be the worse option... Also, this build can be further improved with level 13 when greater weapon specialization becomes available.
Dragon style is included again, dragon empire book could be used again (quain trait).
MA Str
Human Monk (Martial Artist) 12
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 87 (12d8+12)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +11; +2 vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune exhaustion, fatigue
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +21/+16 (2d8+17/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+5/+5/+0
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22/26, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 14/16, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling); CMD 37 (39 vs. Grapple)
Feats Dazzling Display (Unarmed strike), Dodge, Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds, Dragon Style, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -3/+6, Shatter Defenses (Unarmed strike), Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 20), Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed strike)
Traits Poverty-Stricken, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+31 jump, +27 to jump), Climb +12, Escape Artist +4, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (history) +5, Perception +18, Ride +4, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +5, Survival +9, Swim +12
Languages Common
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +7, Exploit Weakness +15, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Maneuver Training, Pain Points, Physical Resistance 2, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d8)
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of giant strength +4, Bracers of armor +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Monk's robe, Ring of protection +2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +7 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Dazzling Display (Unarmed strike) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Exploit Weakness +15 (Ex) At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the mar
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point) (Ex) +12 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immune to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immune to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Pain Points (Ex) At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.
Physical Resistance 2 (Ex) At 7th level, if a martial artist suffers any effect that causes ability damage, ability drain, or temporary ability score penalties, the effect is reduced by 1 point. This reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 7th (to a maximum redu
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Argh, made a mistake in my first evaluation post of minotarian's build above - the secondary attacks were too low I think. This should be correct:
For full attacks with secondary:
+23/+18/+13 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+28/x2)
+18 bite (1d4+10/x2)
+18/+18 claw (1d4+10/x2)
With power attack, that becomes
+19/+14/+11 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+36/x2)
+14 bite (1d4+14/x2)
+14/+14 claw (1d4+14/x2)
For full attacks with off-hand and natural attacks:
+21/+16/+11 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+28/x2)
+21/+16/+11 unarmed strike off-hand (1d8+28/x2)
+16 bite (1d4+10/x2)
+16/+16 claw (1d4+10/x2)
With power attack, that becomes
+17/+12/+7 unarmed strike main hand (1d8+36/x2)
+17/+12/+7 unarmed strike off-hand (1d8+32/x2)
+12 bite (1d4+14/x2)
+12/+12 claw (1d4+14/x2)
Using the same comparisons (AC etc.) as above, this means:
Full attack + secondary vs. flurry:
MB: 5 hits (unarmed strikes+bite+claws) -> 2x32.5+12.5+2*12.5 = 102.5 dmg
VM: 4 hits -> 4x23.5 = 94 dmg
The rest stays the same. This is high and good base damage, higher than with the other attacks (since they do not hit with this setup) - 8.5 higher than VM.
Compared to the MA monk above the damage is the same, using the dragon empire damage trait, MA monk pulls ahead.
Still, this is very nice :-)
When you are calculating the average damage, you can't simply suppose you roll 10 in every dice. This is nor right. Imagine two builds: One of them hit with 11+, and do 55d6+110, and have 11 attacks. The other build hit with 9+, do one attack, and does 1d2+1. If you assume 10 in every attack, then the second build is "better" than the first one.
You should calculate average damage, with miss chances (and crit chances as well). Not every attack rolling 10+.
Also, you forgot to add Rend (1d10+12 or so)
When you are calculating the average damage, you can't simply suppose you roll 10 in every dice. This is nor right. Imagine two builds: One of them hit with 11+, and do 55d6+110, and have 11 attacks. The other build hit with 9+, do one attack, and does 1d2+1. If you assume 10 in every attack, then the second build is "better" than the first one.
You should calculate average damage, with miss chances (and crit chances as well). Not every attack rolling 10+.
Well, since I compare two builds with the same threat ranges doing analyses for criticals should not really make a difference. Assuming 10 on dice rolls is also what I have seen in many calculations.
The MA build comes out even better in the case of criticals, though, due to
- shatter defenses on criticals
- minotorian's build would have to take improved critical twice to gain it for natural attacks as well, losing one of the higher level feats. Alternatively getting keen on the AoMF would do it for the claws, but that would remove the ability to overcome some damage reduction and reduce to-hit and damage further.
The MB build would probably do at least somewhat better, in some instances a lot better with another hit. I would have to recheck...
If you could you are free to do the analysis that way, though. I would be interested in it :-) I don't have the time for that now...
My point was to try to approach roughly the same set of stats (AC, saves, to hit, attacks etc.) as minotorian's build to see if the monk looks as bad as duskblade implied and some others claimed. The monks come out quite competitively in my opinion, so I disagree with the part of the discussion that belittles monks here :-)
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If you're going for multi-attack you must take the rat fangs, or the additional traits feat. Good point on the max buy for gear...
If you want to use max of 15 points, then the fighter will hurt more from this exercise.
I'm not sure why on earth you'd use "poverty-stricken" trait, Quain martial artist is the trait to take for this exercise.
There's no reason to not take medusa's wrath AND improved critical.
Sangalor, read up on the stunned condition, they lose their dex bonus and get -2ac... and drop everything in their hands.
CR 12 most stuff in the bestiary is ac 25-27 (the most common being 27) and tends to have anywhere from 1-3pts of dex.
If you're going with multi-attack you must take the ring of rat fangs. Demon spawn can't swap the racial trait tusked because they lack orc ferocity.
Adopted or no you still must have the trait to replace to take it.
For the fighter, a race other than the one I've been using would be better, or at least the variant as wisdom doesn't do anything for this exercise.
@gustavo: You are right about rend, that increases the damage a bit more (except in the case where there is only one hit).
If you're going for multi-attack you must take the rat fangs, or the additional traits feat. Good point on the max buy for gear...
If you want to use max of 15 points, then the fighter will hurt more from this exercise.
I'm not sure why on earth you'd use "poverty-stricken" trait, Quain martial artist is the trait to take for this exercise.
There's no reason to not take medusa's wrath AND improved critical.
Sangalor, read up on the stunned condition, they lose their dex bonus and get -2ac... and drop everything in their hands.
CR 12 most stuff in the bestiary is ac 25-27 (the most common being 27) and tends to have anywhere from 1-3pts of dex.
If you're going with multi-attack you must take the ring of rat fangs. Demon spawn can't swap the racial trait tusked because they lack orc ferocity.
Adopted or no you still must have the trait to replace to take it.
For the fighter, a race other than the one I've been using would be better, or at least the variant as wisdom doesn't do anything for this exercise.
I am not sure where you are replying to me and where to someone else here...
I do know the stunned condition. I just did not figure it in because it's dependent on the saves of an opponent. I do not have average fort save score available, so I cannot judge the success of it. That's why I went for the other feats in my calculations: They are more easily analyzed :-) So yes, the monk's damage can be increased further, it's just already enough for me this way to see that it's competitive :-)
I did not take the quain trait since - as I pointed out - I do not have the book, i.e. I cannot choose it in HL. Don't want to do all of it by hand.
I also stated that I am not familiar with non-standard races, so that's why I chose human. Note that you cannot use flurry and natural attacks, there is a specific post by the devs about it. You can however take feral combat training to use natural attacks in a flurry of blows - I don't think it's really worth it, though.
As for improved critical AND medusa's wrath: I was lacking a free feat at those high levels, but maybe you can show an alternative there?
If you feel like it, use the builds above as template and improve them - I would like to see that :-)
Can someone either link back to or explain why claw attacks and unarmed attacks can be taken at the same time. It would seem that they use up the same slot so to speak and can not be used with conjunction with each other.
You use feet, elbows etc. :-)
their ki pool does not stack with other ki pools (ninja, specifically).
Uhm, this is wrong. It even states specifically in the class feature of the ninja:
At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
So ninja ki pool levels stack with monk ki pool levels, and you even get to decide which attribute powers them :-)
You know, this thread seems familiar.
Yeah, it certainly does :-D
By the way, thank you for that thread - it got me actively thinking about accepting the loss of class features to gain something else. I really liked the rogue example - and here we see the same with monk ;-)
Well, since I compare two builds with the same threat ranges doing analyses for criticals should not really make a difference. Assuming 10 on dice rolls is also what I have seen in many calculations.When you are calculating the average damage, you can't simply suppose you roll 10 in every dice. This is nor right. Imagine two builds: One of them hit with 11+, and do 55d6+110, and have 11 attacks. The other build hit with 9+, do one attack, and does 1d2+1. If you assume 10 in every attack, then the second build is "better" than the first one.
You should calculate average damage, with miss chances (and crit chances as well). Not every attack rolling 10+.
But if one of the builds happen to have a lot of attacks that hit in the 11-14 rank (such as secondary natural attacks), using "always 10" mean all those attacks are contributing zero in your calculation. That's simply not true. If I'm going to attack you 5 times with 12+, I can tell you that you are going to suffer more than zero damage.
Also, it's tilting the average if one of the build happen to hit several attacks with 2-4+. while the other happen to hit in the 8-10 range. If you assume 10, both are equally accurate. But that's not true, the attacks that hit with 2+ are going to do more damage on average that those who hit with 9+, because those will fail way more.
The average is calculated multiplying the average damage with the chance to hit. So, against 27 armor, thos attacks with +20 to hit, hit with 7+. That's 70% chance to hit, so you multiply the average damage x 0.7. Ignore the crits if those builds both have the same crit chance (although a cestus build will crit with 17+)
I'll use your numbers, with %hit-miss. Using power attack, vs AC 27, MB does:
Bite (Tusked) +16 (1d4+10/x2) = 12.5 x 0.5
. . Claw x2 (Maw or Claw (Claws)) +16 x2 (1d4+10/x2) = 12.5 x 0.5 x 2
. . Unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d8+28/x2) = 32.5 x (0.75, 0.5, 0.25)
. . Unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d8+24/x2) = 28.5 x (0.75, 0,5, 0,25)
that's an average of 18,75 + 48.75 + 42.75 = 110.25. If Rends kick in (which should be almost allways), you have +1d10+10, or 15.5 extra damage. So average damage is something round 125-126 damage.
The VM of your example, with a lower hit ratio, will do, with power attack and a ki point, vs 27 AC:
+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+23) with flurry and 1 ki for extra attack
= 32 * (0.6, 0.6, 0.6, 0.35, 0.35, 0.1), or 83.4 damage. If you want to include the Medusa Wrath, then we have to check first which is the For Save of the monster, to see how frequently you can use it. It won't make for the 40 damage gap, though.
Cestus build should need to use crit chances, though. But it's probably more damaging, because it's more accurate hitting.
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Sangalor I replied to you specifically because of
Dragon ferocity makes it that a successful stunning fist attempt or a critical hit renders an opponent shaken. Shatter defenses lets you treat those foes as flat-footed, which should increase the to-hit even further.
Which, when you're advocating picking up a feat that does nothing for you, due to the opponent already being flat footed... wasn't sure you understood what stunned did. Since stun already does more than flat footed does.
Sangalor I replied to you specifically because ofDragon ferocity makes it that a successful stunning fist attempt or a critical hit renders an opponent shaken. Shatter defenses lets you treat those foes as flat-footed, which should increase the to-hit even further.Which, when you're advocating picking up a feat that does nothing for you, due to the opponent already being flat footed... wasn't sure you understood what stunned did. Since stun already does more than flat footed does.
That is right. However, the shaken condition can be applied by you via dazzling display *without* a save - you just need to boost intimidate. That is one way to do it.
The other way is when you hit critically, you automatically make the opponent shaken, no save again - and they are flat footed again.In both cases it's for several rounds, stunning fist is only for one round and allows a save, so in this context it is the inferior choice and this combo is superior. Especially since shaken/frightened/etc. can be caused by group members (spells or dazzling display or feats etc.), so it offers a lot of potential :-)
Well, since I compare two builds with the same threat ranges doing analyses for criticals should not really make a difference. Assuming 10 on dice rolls is also what I have seen in many calculations.When you are calculating the average damage, you can't simply suppose you roll 10 in every dice. This is nor right. Imagine two builds: One of them hit with 11+, and do 55d6+110, and have 11 attacks. The other build hit with 9+, do one attack, and does 1d2+1. If you assume 10 in every attack, then the second build is "better" than the first one.
You should calculate average damage, with miss chances (and crit chances as well). Not every attack rolling 10+.
But if one of the builds happen to have a lot of attacks that hit in the 11-14 rank (such as secondary natural attacks), using "always 10" mean all those attacks are contributing zero in your calculation. That's simply not true. If I'm going to attack you 5 times with 12+, I can tell you that you are going to suffer more than zero damage.
Also, it's tilting the average if one of the build happen to hit several attacks with 2-4+. while the other happen to hit in the 8-10 range. If you assume 10, both are equally accurate. But that's not true, the attacks that hit with 2+ are going to do more damage on average that those who hit with 9+, because those will fail way more.
The average is calculated multiplying the average damage with the chance to hit. So, against 27 armor, thos attacks with +20 to hit, hit with 7+. That's 70% chance to hit, so you multiply the average damage x 0.7. Ignore the crits if those builds both have the same crit chance (although a cestus build will crit with 17+)
I'll use your numbers, with %hit-miss. Using power attack, vs AC 27, MB does:
Bite (Tusked) +16 (1d4+10/x2) = 12.5 x 0.5
. . Claw x2 (Maw or Claw (Claws)) +16 x2 (1d4+10/x2) = 12.5 x 0.5 x 2
. . Unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d8+28/x2) = 32.5 x (0.75, 0.5, 0.25)
. . Unarmed strike +21/+16/+11...
Thanks, looks nice :-) Too tired to check it thoroughly today...
I expect the MA build to be superior to that one there, especially with the flat-footed condition applied to the opponent with shattered defenses :-P
If you want to use max of 15 points, then the fighter will hurt more from this exercise.
If you're going with multi-attack you must take the ring of rat fangs. Demon spawn can't swap the racial trait tusked because they lack orc ferocity.
Adopted or no you still must have the trait to replace to take it.
For the fighter, a race other than the one I've been using would be better, or at least the variant as wisdom doesn't do anything for this exercise.
I think youre mistaken here:
Tusked (Half-Orc, Orc)P
Source Orcs of Golarion 23
Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus -5.
says absolutely nothing about orc ferocity in there, sir. I believe you're thinking of the toothy alternate racial feature. don't worry, i made that same mistake when assembling duskblade's build on page three (near the bottom), which he promptly corrected me on.
the whole reason the race and stats are the same (or supposed to be), is because you'd simply go "oh well they're not on even terms now are they" and dismiss the whole idea without reading what was actually posted (as it seems you've done repeatedly).
and i agree, there are better variants of tiefling for the fighter, and the stats could definitely be different, he just has to have the same stats as your monk in everything (all in the name of 'fairness'), so he's technically just as MAD as your monk is, meaning yes, of course he's hurting more in this exchange (but hey, at least mcfighter will have a good perception!).
to save you the time of tracking down my post:
to assemble everything posted thus far (most definitely not in his exact words):
Race: tiefling - oni-spawn (hungerseed)
class: fighter (Lore Warden)stats:
str 18, dex 19, con 10, int 7, wis 16 (+2 racial), cha 8 (-2 racial)
(two of the three level up stat points spent in dex)alternate racial feature: maw or claw (replaces SLA racial feature)
traits:
adopted (orc): tusked
Quain Martial Artistfeats:
Improved unarmed strike
Two-weapon fighting/Greater/Improved
Double Slice (fixes half strength)
Weapon focus/Greater
Weapon Specialization/Greater
Power Attack
Multiattack
Hammer the Gap (if I want more damage)
Two-weapon rend (requires retrain of an older feat)equipment:
MINE FISTS (1d8)
MINE CLAWS (1d4)
MINE POINTY, POINTY TEETH (1d3?)+1 light armor (any light armor will suffice), brawling enchantment (5150g + base armor price)
dueling gloves (15000g)
monk's robe (16000g)
belt of dex +4 (16000g)(leaves 6000g for misc. equipment if +3 AoMF is allowed for purchase)
if toothy is disallowed for some reason: ring of rat fangs (5000g)
.
all i can find so far. only thing thats really missing is the levels at which he took the feats, and proper stat clarification. the rest of the money can simply be spent getting anything needed to meet said stat requirements.
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possible stat spread for both might be (15pb):
str 16 (+2 racial for 18),
dex 13,
con 10,
int 7,
wis 14 (+2 racial for 16),
cha 10 (-2 racial for 8, can be dumped further to buff con or wis if need be)
I removed the +3 AoMF in this build since it's DEFINITELY more than 25% of the 108k starting wealth both of you have, therefor it wouldn't available for purchase (for this build or for yours). if i'm mistaken and it's 50%-on-one-item instead, then +3 AoMF can and will be purchased.
edit: just set the stats in the build to the suggested spread in the same spoiler. there's two or three points that can be taken from cha to improve another stat, if you both can agree on where they will go. personally i'd dump cha more and increase con to 13.
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you still need to at least pick up the feat then for extra racial traits, due to needing three traits =P
But yeah I was thinking of toothy.
And no I wouldn't dismiss it by having different priorities in attributes.
with your post there's just no way for the fighter to really get the Dex and Str he needs for the feats and damage/to hit.
I used 20pts because it's what PFS uses. And the rules for Acquiring gear as well, and the money from the core book for it's suggested wealth by level.
I'm used to generally building a class from lvl 1 and just working from there, so I'm not familiar with the "gold restriction" on purchase of max 25% or what nots.
I guess with the PFS restrictions we should be looking at a max item cost of 23k Which will inherently force the monk to become a bit more well rounded than otherwise.
of course this also means the max bonus we can get is a +4 to any specific attribute, and then we have clashes in slots from that point.
So with these standard restrictions the monk can focus on strength and wisdom (two different slots for +4 to each attribute) while the fighter will be stuck choosing +2 for str and dex or +4 to just one, and then a +2 from a ioun stone.
Offhand, except for a Human giving up their skill points and bonus feat, I don't know of any race with a racial bonus to str and dex that's PFS legal.
If the fighter focuses Dex enough to get Greater right at lvl 11, he becomes lower in strength then otherwise. The only thing the fighter is able to do to pull ahead is to use three natural attacks in part of a flurry.
Assuming these restrictions :
Monk Fighter
strength: 24 Strength: 24
Wisdom: 22 Dex: 19
belt of giant +4 (wait)(16k) Belt of Giant +4 (waist)(16k)
Wisdom headband +4 (head)(16k) Ioun stone dex +2 (slotless)(8k)
AoMF +2 (neck) 20k AoMF (neck) 20k.
So I guess the question is what gear is available to max the monks dps under this scenario, the Fighter is pretty easy due to no restrictions and the focus of this.
AoMF we're limited to just a +2 under this restriction so there's actually a large chunk of change left. All things considered I would imagine the figher would use brass knuckles/cestus and just not bother with robes/aomf. But since he's going the unarmed route towards exclusion, I guess not? But it'd make more sense to with the knuckles or cestus due to being able to make them out of materials to bypass DR, and to get the enchantment bonus up higher. (+3 rather than +2) of course this means he spends 8k more than the monk at this point, but that's not really important with the max restriction.
Gloves of Dueling (hands)15k
Brawling armor (armor) (+2 enchant total, so at least 4,150 + armor)
I'm really skeptical about the barbarian being better than the fighter, the fighter is only able to pull it off because of how many feats (and feat retraining) that he's got available.
As it stands the only way the fighter pulls ahead is by using natural attacks added into two weapon fighting, but that has DR issues.
I'm still not seeing the whole dazzling display/shattered defenses thing. Dazzling appears to work by making you do a full round action to demoralize within 30feat? While stunning fist, you punch them, and just hope they don't fail the fort save?... regardless though you are punching them for damage with the monk, but the fighter has to spend a full round "prepping" the fight...
I'm thinking though the four winds monk against a non-dr target, will get it done due to flurry + three extra attacks + medusa's wrath + 3d6 to every hit. 8-10 attacks, most at a high bonus, all using elemental and stunning fist.