DM-ing advice: What do you do when half of your PCs are optimized?


Advice


I'm a DM running an AP for my party. We've played pretty far and are on book 6. And now, I'm running into a problem that I don't really know how to solve. I appreciate any advice, but here it goes:

I have 4 PCs that I'm DMing for, and two of them are highly optimized, the other two not so much. As it stands now, none of the encounters can touch the optimized PCs unless they A)nat 20, or B)the optimized PCs nat-1 (and even then, the bard can force re-roll)

On the other hand, for the unoptimized PCs, the book is actually challenging.

If I had 4 optimized PCs, then I could just apply the advanced simple template multiple times to up the hurdle, but if I do that, then the unoptimized PCs will stand no chance. However, as it stands, the mobs can't touch the optimized PCs and the unoptimized ones, at worst, pull their legs. How do I solve this?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Take a very good look at those optimised PC's. Usually those types have weak spots that may have gotten over looked.

Or put in some additional tougher folks that target the supermen. If they claim shenanigans, hit the players with the rolled up module for reading ahead.


Well; you can do this in multiple fashions, and it depends on where the PC's are optimized at (or not optimized at).

If your unoptimized PC's are undergeared, then toss some extra goodies their way (and I don't mean literally); set some items up that would really benefit them and put them on the same level of the Optimized PC's.

If your unoptimized PC's are generally weak due to varied stat points, my recommendation is to have them redo the stats with a Point Buy system; AP's are classified within the 15-20 point range, and would be a good place to start.

If your unoptimized PC's are weak due to class features and/or selections of spell or other such things, then there isn't much you can do about it; they made the choice, they chose not to be optimized (and while this isn't a bad thing, it just means they're not so great towards combat), and they help out in other important areas, such as Knowledge Checks and the like.

Dark Archive

Short answer is too optimize the encounters, long answer would depend on the specifics of your player's characters.

For example if your player's tank is maximized for AC, an encouter with a Gunslinger might be a decent obsticle, or if they are Maxed for saving throws, a manuver master monk with improved trip might be an interesting encouter.

Enviromental considerations can also add another level of difficulty, higher ground, cover ect.


Can you give us more details on the characters? It's hard to judge from just a general description of the problem what the best means is about dealing with it.

If you post up the character sheets, it'll help because it may be that: the optimised PCs are built, ahem, erroneously; or the non-optimized PCs have missed details. It will help us suggest strategies/monsters that challenge the optimized without threatening the non-optimised.


The party is a mage-party, and I had to change the Adventure in a number of ways to fit this. The wizard and the witch both being able to select their spells, stack numerous buffs to put their AC and saves really high.

The sorcerer and the bard can't really do that. The party's cohort alchemist also stacks buffs and has really high AC from mutagens and various extracts. As of now, I'm having the haunt rip off the buffs ASAP so they're at least vulnerable to the encounters that follow, but their buff list is really really really really long.

Thank you for the advice by the way. I'll definitely modify some of the loot.


Ahh this problem... there are a few ways i have found to deal with this:

here are a couple of problems i usually run into:

1) super high AC: use will saves or touch attacks
2) high DPR: I like to swarm them so they cant focus fire on one guy and its fun to throw in dirty tricks once awhile

When I was running a Lvl 5 homebrew campaign I liked to make it so the enemies would use some tactics attacks from two sides so the front liners can protect everyone, or use terrain to your advantage, that or darkness gets in the way of a lot of things. When you get sneaky enemies it makes it so the PC's are a little slower to react and charge in.

These are just some simple ideas with what you have given me to work with but with running an AP your players might know what is coming.

But back to the main problem of wanting the non-opt. PC's to be able to do something, this might go out of the AP you are using but have puzzles in some fights. Like a enemy that is magically charged by something and some one has to figure it out before everyone is dead. Just an idea but I like more then everyone lining up and hacking at each other, you should be looking at how to make the situation work for the bad guys.

Again these are some pretty simple ideas but I hope it helps.

Red


Get the players talking about the disparity. Set done time aside during a session to "talk tactics"... It's possible that people are OK with the current state of things. You need to uncover what they want, not what you think they want.

If you can get them talking, and not competing, you might be able to set the non optimal players up with a mentor for optimization. Worked for me!


A mage-party would hate anythign with magic immunity


You could try to give your PCs less warning about what they'll be fighting? If the prepared casters in your party don't know the immunities and resistances of the enemies they'll be fighting, the spells they prepare can't be as "optimal."


And if the witch and wizard are dependent on buff spells, have someone throw lots of greater dispel magics at them.

Or...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

Silver Crusade

Buffs take time (actions) to apply!

Hit and run tactics! Mooks attack, buffers buff for (x) rounds, mooks melt into the surrounding, rinse and repeat until buffers run out of buffs. For buffs that last for hours, attack them early in the day, then wait till the buffs end before attacking again.

Attack them when they're trying to rest. No sleep = no new spells prepared.

Balanced parties exist for a reason. If the players choose to have an all arcane party in a published AP, do not change the adventure to compensate for their foolishness! Run the AP as is, and dare them to whinge about it on the basis that it's a non-standard party!

Swamp casters with low CR melee types who grapple! The warriors will save them! Oh, wait! There aren't any! : )


voideternal wrote:
The party is a mage-party, and I had to change the Adventure in a number of ways to fit this. The wizard and the witch both being able to select their spells, stack numerous buffs to put their AC and saves really high.

OK, a few points here:

1) Most buffs are limited duration. Are they spending half the combat ensuring they are safe, or buffing in advance? If not, their buffs should be running out rapidly.
2) Ensure they are not stacking like bonuses. Two enhancement bonuses do not stack, for example. Only untyped, circumstance and dodge bonuses ever stack with the same type of bonus.
3) Greater Dispel Magic. This will de-buff them badly.


I'm surprised that an all-arcane party has lasted as long as it has. Here is the best way to approach the situation:

Talk to your optimized PCs!

The game I'm in right now has 5 players, and both myself and another member of the group have well optimized characters. We are on book 4, and realized that we are outclassing the other members of our party and making their contributions count less than our own. So, with GM permission, we de-powered our character to fall in line with the rest of the party.

You could ask your players to do something similar.

Liberty's Edge

dunebugg wrote:


Talk to your optimized PCs!

Excellent advice!, Also,

Talk to your unoptimized PCs!

If the players don't mind, you and the optimizing players can give them suggestions to help boost their characters. You can also drop items that the unoptimized players will get more mileage out of, like scrolls or wands of buffing spells, or wands of metamagic.

Another thought - If the optimized players are using a solid selection of spells to buff themselves, and are prepared spellcasters, they are going to be pretty low on spells. If they've made decent spell choices, their many spells per day will be useful in its own right.


Talk to all members of the party, first of all.

Second, I always look over player sheets *before* the game. Anyone that looks like they might not keep up with the rest gets a few ideas on how they might balance out but keep it fluffy. This is particularly true with new players, or existing players that do not know any of the rules. For example we had a guy that wanted to make a small sized paladin, and he wanted to use a gnome. While it is a completely valid choice, I just had a conversation with him about why a dwarf might have some merit.

Also, see if you can't get that bard to cast some buffs on the other two players. Without knowing what the rest of the party is, there is not much more I can say.


If all your players really want to be optimal and shine in combat the best thing to do is allow the suboptimal chars to adjust their builds with your guidance or help from the optimal players. When everyone is eqully munchkiny then just boost the challenges appropriately.

Btw, did you point buy? If this is a rolled stat inequality problem then you may have to do some stat adjusting


You say they are in book 6 pf an AP? So many options then! With a highly caster-centric party relying on mass buffing you have quite a few choices:

A) Thousand Mook Swarm: This basically relies on you throwing a spread out group of lower level enemies to fight the team, with a couple keen-eyed and keen-witted commanders to point out who is the powerhouses among your PC's. Stoneskin can only shunt so much damage at a time, and a couple lower leveled casters mixed in can help screen/buff for the mooks (how many arrows can a hasted level 6 fighter fire off?)

B) As Tonyz showed, Antimagic! (Also known as, enjoy being a commoner mister wizard): This can be a good route for making your party have to react on their feet. A magus with Dimensional Agility and Spell Blending or a scroll can teleport near a wizard and cast Antimagic Field, then trip mister wizard when he tries to flee. Other options include Arcane Archers with Antimagic Field, you can shoot AMFs around the battlefield then. (Be careful with this though, too many Antimagic Fields can have such side-effects as rage quitting, table flipping, or punching-the-dm-in-the-face syndrome.)

C)Golems: Huzzah for magic immunity! Nuff' said

D) Talk to them: I really shouldn't post this last, as it is the first thing you should do. Find out what the sourcerer and bard aren't doing that is putting them behind or what specifically the others are doing that's putting themselves ahead.

You mentioned mass buffing, but how are actual enemies being taken down? Dragons and outsiders tend not to lose to a wizard flexing his well buffed arms (unless they die laughing). If the Wizard and Witch are buffing so much, how many encounters are they going through a day? How many slots are not being eaten up here? Is your Bard getting to inspire a bunch of wizards or are they summoning a horde of creatures for him to lead into battle.


if you have any cities with weapon restrictions, they should also generally have magic restrictions. i would recommend enforcing those restrictions.

Liberty's Edge

I would like to add, above all, that you should examine one simple point in the form of a long-considered question:

Is everyone at your table enjoying the game?

If the optimized PC's are the ones having all the fun due to "winning" the fights more, try to include noncombat scenarios where all their magical might isn't as important. If the unoptimized PC's just aren't getting chances to be in the spotlight, flex your own muscle (your creative one.) I know you mentioned an AP here, but above all, REMEMBER THE GOLDEN RULE: everyone is there to have fun.

take creative license! throw those optimizers for a loop! surprise them! Split the party temporarily! throw them into some court intrigue where a bard can shine! Set them up with some non-hostile dragons that need negotiation and kindred spirits instead of buff-blasting! You're the DM, you get to provide the fun. if everybody's happy, then the problem solves itself. That said, all the above posters have valid ideas; just remember that one rule. If all have fun, the problems are none.

P.S.
In the future, one thing that may help avoid the quandary is a more unified party creation session. Get a consensus on whether the party should optimize or fluff a bit, and get some teamwork going before the game begins. If everyone is on the same page, so to speak, then you avoid party power division like this altogether. Just a thought.


Talk to them about it. You may find everyone is happy with the situation, or that they are willing to compromise.

Also, swap out some feats and use PC-style tactics against them. A couple of lower level fighters Charge in with Power Attack, Improved Overrun and Furious Focus can knock one prone, surround them and Aid Another. Send four of these against one spellcaster and the last one to Charge in has +12 in bonuses to hit him with his Power Attack. A group with Reach Weaons, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Gang Up will make life very difficult. Two or three levels of fighter added to slightly lower CR monster work for this. Imagine a group of trolls with the Improved Trip and Gang Up...

Here's a big mistake I made with my group: Have another look at how difficult it is to cast spells in combat. I was shocked to learn how high the DCs are and that you lose the spell, not just provoke an AoO.


Oh, and Illusions. One of my players still talks about the time he rolled nearly maximum damage for his Fireball, his only third level spell at the time, and the Trolls turned out to be illusions. The rest of that fight became a fighting retreat against the real trolls and their Wizard master. The victorious party carried two unconscious PCs (Wizard and Cleric) back to town.


Thank you all for your suggestions. I'm certain I can prepare my group for the next session now.

I'll modify the loot drops to specifically benefit the sorcerer and bard to catch them up with the other two PCs.

Also, I'll incorporate puzzles in the fights that involve the (currently) suboptimal characters. I think most of my players like RPing more than blasting, so I think it will be a fun change to the current dungeon (which is mostly solved by wizard-nukes right now).

I didn't want to throw magic immune things at them very often, because if the witch/wizard can't take it down, then the sorcerer/bard would probably not stand a chance either. Ideally, I want every PC to be involved.

I've been usually following the AP, but considering your suggestions and the current situation, I'll try my had at putting some big changes in the AP to suit my PCs. Thank you again.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / DM-ing advice: What do you do when half of your PCs are optimized? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice