Goblin Squad Member
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Eve is the basis for PFO with tweaks that Ryan did not like in Eve... but of course Fantasy instead of SciFi.Basis for? With tweaks?
lol
That seems a very simplistic view. Anyone that has been around here awhile and feels that way is either:
a. Not reading enough, ignoring what they read, or misunderstanding what they read.
b. Wishing and propagandizing.
Your kidding right? Have you read the old blogs?
Ryan refers to Eve constantly. Its the one MMO he knows and had decided to model PFO off Eve's success. We can go on and on with the similarities and the negatives that Ryan has decided to tweak. All based on Eve's model.
I think you fall in A bud.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll summarize the design principles that PFO is seeing as successful in EVE Online - as language can be ambigious in clipped statements.
1/ Skill-Training real-time monetization model
2/ PLEX/ISK ~ Skymetal
3/ Social circles scale design
4/ Territorial map control of resources eg similar to eve map management
5/ Economic engine
6/ Gear slots = value for avatar
7/ In general: Goals, Social, Conflict + bottom-up design (yoy steady growth and customer focus)
8/ PvP + PvE integration ie 5/
On taking the positives and attempting to avoid the negatives:
As the age of the fantasy theme park MMO comes to a close, we can look back and see a number of really important lessons from these games, as well as from sandbox MMOs like EVE Online and Darkfall. One of those lessons is the importance of establishing and maintaining community standards early.
The Design Objectives
We want to mirror some of the amazing things that occurred in Ultima Online and EVE Online, but we also want to strike out on our own path. At the size and scale that Pathfinder Online will eventually reach, opportunities for player-driven content to become epic are everywhere, and we're going to be working to maximize those epic stories when they naturally arise.
[...]
We also want to avoid some of the missteps that have happened in other games. We want to ensure that there's always enough space so that new settlements and kingdoms can form. We want to avoid the problem of choke points that restrict access to key resources, making whomever got to those points first the de facto "winners" in the economy. We also want to retain the sense that the land is wild and untamed. You'll be able to leave civilization behind and go out in the dark areas of the map where nothing rules except monsters, robbers, and cults.
We're going to design Pathfinder Online so that each level of social organization arises when the game is ready for it. Slowly adding these increasing levels of sophistication will allow the society of the game to ramp up gradually and with good cohesion. As new players join, they'll always have ways to become a part of that process. By the time the first kingdoms form, there will be a pyramid of smaller group structures for players to participate in, ensuring lots of content for everyone.
The other major difference Ryan has mentioned is the "Rampant Capitalism" of EVE Online + Early Community Standards (aka philosophy or Normalized In-Game Culture) which appear both related... wants to do things very differently in PFO. I believe putting it like that is correct given recent comments above by Ryan.
IE: EVE Online is bit of knee-jerk reaction to the stifling culture found in most other mmorpgs where the players have almost zero freedom and the oxygen is very rarified! EVE is like an oxygen-rich atmosphere = highly combustible - perhaps is a suitable metaphor?! lol. We just need a perfect 21% O2 atmosphere tbh!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. Indeed.
As I have suggested, if you feel that way, perhaps it would help to examine the material more.
This: Pretty Delicious is basically peanuts with tweaks also.
EVE is basically checkers with tweaks, too.
Please do refer to me as "Bud" from now on. I really like it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO is a direct descendent of EVE and will be referred to as such throughout its entire existence. That is just fact.
Sometimes children grow up to have pretty different personalities from their parents and that just might be the case here. But that still doesn't change the game's lineage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. Indeed.
As I have suggested, if you feel that way, perhaps it would help to examine the material more.
This: Pretty Delicious is basically peanuts with tweaks also.
EVE is basically checkers with tweaks, too.
Please do refer to me as "Bud" from now on. I really like it.
Ok, Bud
Would you prefer it proper with a capital B or as more of a improper with a lower case b?
Please though, take your own suggestion... Start at the bottom of the list of Dev blogs and work your way up. That way they are in order, and you can see all the Eve references.
If you want I can take direct quotes from the dev blog... but I doubt this forum will let me post that much at once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TabulaRasa wrote:
Hence, I would like to know what in the dev team's opinion are Eve weakest point and what would you do differently?Any answer we give would be subjective and limited. We both know lots of folks at CCP and there's no value in our taking shots at the thing that pays their bills.
We are not making EVE Online, and the differences between our game and EVE will be greater than their similarities.
This is just one quickly found example. Parts of EVE may be "ingredients" in PfO, but that can virtually be said about anything.
You just go ahead and roll with your view. I won't be back here, Xeen. At least not on this sub topic. It is kinda pointless.
It is going to be alright. You are going to be unhappy with the way the game turns out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are going to be unhappy with the way the game turns out.
I Doubt it
We are not making EVE Online, and the differences between our game and EVE will be greater than their similarities.
I do love this one sentence of the quote though... Seems to pop up a lot. Hang on, let me get you one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The EVE Model
As many of you know by now, in the past several years, I had the opportunity to work at CCP Games, developer/publisher of EVE Online. EVE has a non-standard model for character development that solves many of the problems with both the classic leveling system and the "earn by doing" skill systems, and we're going to encapsulate some of those ideas into the Pathfinder Online design.
In EVE, characters learn skills in real time. Players need not do anything other than select a skill to train. Even when the player is logged off, the character continues to train the selected skill. Skill training only stops if a character has completed a path of training and hasn't already queued a new skill to start training immediately thereafter.
Skills in EVE often add bonuses to various activities, and are prerequisites for using a variety of in-game gear, so a character with a lot of skill points is usually very flexible, able to do a lot of different things, and able to use a lot of different gear. Yet a character with far fewer skill points can be just as good as the more skilled character in one specific area if the player focuses on training just that set of skills. This means that newer players can compete effectively with older players even though newer characters will never "catch up" in terms of total skill points trained.
There are a couple of downsides to the EVE system. First, it's pretty confusing, especially for new players. Figuring out how all the skills, bonuses, gear, and benefits interact is daunting. The system has been constantly developed for more than a decade and it is rich, deep, and complex. It rewards those who take the time to master its intricacies, but that complexity can be a barrier to entry for the player who just wants a more casual experience. Second, even if you do understand the system it can be a challenge to figure out "how to get from here to there"—that is, in what order to train skills to both maximize the value of the training and to engage in a fun way with the game while the skills are trained. There are lots of helpful advice sites that try to give some guidance in this process, but the sheer complexity of the system means there's no "right" answer for most players.
The upsides outweigh these downsides. One huge upside is that unlike almost every other MMO, your character gets better in EVE even when you're playing another game! That makes it easy to make EVE your "second" MMO, the game you play in addition to something else (like World of Warcraft). It also levels the playing field between people who can only put in a few hours a day (or a few a week), and those who can play continuously. Finally, it encourages characters to specialize, but doesn't inflict overt penalties if the player doesn't do so. No skill training is ever wasted—the worst scenario is that you wasted some time training a skill you're not going to use right away. Your character's advancement doesn't create dead ends or "worthless builds."
Good things? Yep, lets keep em
Bad things? Yep, lets fix emEve based? Yep, lets run with it
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that you do not permit a person to purchase multiple accounts for her or himself...Dude, just go buy and play the game...
This is the only real problem I see with reviving old threads. You're responding to a statement made almost a year ago by someone who hasn't been active on these boards for 10 months.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are not making EVE Online, and .We are not bound by EVE's self-imposed game design rule that there is no such thing as a 100% safe zone... .
Oh, good for you, you can find one sentence posts too.
Another thing... You are taking those quotes out of context. The first one was trying to cool down people who said some nasty things about Ryan himself and about his former game title, Eve.
The second one of course is way off. It was about high sec ganking being possible in PFO. Something they have not even completed yet.
Read the posts completely before you quote them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're kind of slippery, so I'm not sure if you'll acknowledge that these are actually on-point with respect to what you think is going to be similar to EVE, but they seem relevant to me.
We're well aware of the kind of non-fun experiences that PvP has created in some games, and we think we have lots of ideas on ways to keep misbehavior under control in Pathfinder Online.
given zerging has been confirmed as a viable strategy, it will be happening on launch day. Just like every other MMO that has this "feature".The zerg gankers go CE quickly, get kicked out of their Settlements, and have to deal with all the consequences. Pretty soon "zerging" becomes non-fun. Viable targets are harder to find, they find themselves being hunted constantly, and the territory where they can operate gets squeezed.
A bunch of 1 day old PCs are not going to be able to be more than a nuisance to a competent small group of older PCs. Constantly creating new characters to zerg won't reward you with ganks - or it won't reward you with many ganks, and most of the people you manage to gank will have little or nothing of value on them so there's no reward for the gank except for the lulz.
. We want the people who get angry and quit to be the people causing the problem in the first place.
Nothing in the "throwaway alt zerg" strategy helps them.
RyanD
PFO is specifically being designed so that most players aren't constantly getting killed. Players who try to play PFO by constantly killing everyone they see are going to suck, and they'll probably get angry and quit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, that is where some of it comes from. Which is why I say, the game has a basis with Eve. They are taking the Eve Model and tweaking it to get the game they want.
Will it be like Eve? In some ways yes, and in some ways no.
The zerg response is directly related to Eve. He doesnt want people making up throw away alts to high sec gank, which is done in Eve.
One of my alliance guys and I figured out we could make 20 characters put 1 week of skill training into them and go gank an expensive Freighter and guarantee a kill. We didnt plan to do it, but did the math to figure it out. This was right as Hulkageddon first started.
That works in Eve... Because it is ship based. This is character based and D&D based, does not fit here. D&D characters get to a power level beyond that... Granted though, there may be a magical number of characters that could probably do it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The flat power curve we have been told about could make lowbie zergs more likely than in Eve rather than less, all else being functionally equal.
Fortunately for those who want to play the game rather than be played, there are to be various inhibitors, at least according to my current grasp of the design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which is why I say, the game has a basis with Eve.
The problem is that you use that to suggest that PFO will allow the same kind of free-for-all PvP that EVE allows.
We have to remember that Ryan came from CCP and is following the Eve model on most things.
The biggest part of Eve's sandbox with player driven content is 0.0 space. (He wants player driven content) Which is a FFA zone where the players get to create their own empires and fight each other for that territory. (Open World PVP Sandbox anyone)
Why does anyone expect the wilderness to be much different then that?
And you maintain this position despite clear statements from Ryan to the contrary.
The solution to most of your objections can be summed up by "don't let people make easy recoveries from evil acts".
The most important thing is not that characters can kill other characters. The most important thing is that there are consequences for doing that. And it's a corollary of that statement that the more often a character kills other characters, or helps a character killer, the harder it must be for that character to recover from doing so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, we can do this again if you want... Thats fine.
Ryan has made no clear statements to the contrary. The model will be used and modified. (not being similar to eve still fits there... Use the model and change it to what is wanted)
0.0 and settlement hex FFA zones will exist, I got that from one of his statements.
How big those zones are is unclear atm. which is another of his statements.
Yes, there will be consequences, except in the FFA zones he described.
I got that info from Ryans posts. I have shown them to you including the original thread... Now, you find it.
Is any of that really that hard to comprehend?
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Goblin Squad Member
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yeah, that is the point... I have better things to do then go look for 15000 threads to find the one post to win the argument. If certain people get their panties all wet for that, more power to them. In the end it's just words...
I mean, fine a quote once in a while is good... but certain people pull them out all the time and I don't have the time, nor interest to go for that kind of stuff.
We all know the background from Ryan, we all know what the basis is for PFO so yes, an argument is fine but keep harking on it... and meah.. where is the bounty?
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me atm its breaking up my work schedule... My job on some days is sit and wait for a malfunction to take care of, Other days its engineering work...
I know what you mean though. It is kinda lame. The only real reason I show up and fight the good fight is because I dont want to see too many limitations put on a Sandbox PVP MMO. I really want this game to replace or at least supplement Eve for me. Nothing out there comes close atm.
And no, Im not a griefer or a scammer... you dont need to be to have a blast playing Eve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me atm its breaking up my work schedule... My job on some days is sit and wait for a malfunction to take care of, Other days its engineering work...
I know what you mean though. It is kinda lame. The only real reason I show up and fight the good fight is because I dont want to see too many limitations put on a Sandbox PVP MMO. I really want this game to replace or at least supplement Eve for me. Nothing out there comes close atm.
And no, Im not a griefer or a scammer... you dont need to be to have a blast playing Eve.
Should join me in eve where I am atm, nice, relaxing and no white knighting with forum posts.
Yes, I want to be part of making PFO grow, but having to find against the 24/7 themepark kiddies who want best of both worlds but not some of the harsher parts... bleah...
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's an academic argument. I think if you're marketing PFO, it's better to say it's design principles take some great stuff from eve but additionally aims to forge it's own path and create a different game culture than the "notorious" (?) EVE community's shenanigans?
I just think it's as simple as that. EVE is clearly influencing how current mmorpgs are being designed now "the age of the themepark mmorpg is ending"; and it's very positive to see PFO "ahead of the curve", in this respect.
Honestly, branding it EVE in fantasy clothes is fine talking about some of the design stuff but I think suggesting GW are aiming for a different "culture" is probably worth adding in the same breathe? There's a ton of memes on how "cruel" EVE is I think is probably the biggest exception to the shorthand of "fantasy clothes EVE" (meme!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd say one that GW might be puzzling over, that contrasts with EVE, is how to maximize "business" with the players who are most motivated in PFO? In EVE, I'm led to believe that once you're rich enough you can just buy game time via PLEX? That's great for having players integral to the game playing and influencing, but not so good for CCP's bottom line?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's an academic argument. I think if you're marketing PFO, it's better to say it's design principles take some great stuff from eve but additionally aims to forge it's own path and create a different game culture than the "notorious" (?) EVE community's shenanigans?
I just think it's as simple as that. EVE is clearly influencing how current mmorpgs are being designed now "the age of the themepark mmorpg is ending"; and it's very positive to see PFO "ahead of the curve", in this respect.
Honestly, branding it EVE in fantasy clothes is fine talking about some of the design stuff but I think suggesting GW are aiming for a different "culture" is probably worth adding in the same breathe? There's a ton of memes on how "cruel" EVE is I think is probably the biggest exception to the shorthand of "fantasy clothes EVE" (meme!).
Good way to put it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's an academic argument. I think if you're marketing PFO, it's better to say it's design principles take some great stuff from eve but additionally aims to forge it's own path and create a different game culture than the "notorious" (?) EVE community's shenanigans?
I just think it's as simple as that. EVE is clearly influencing how current mmorpgs are being designed now "the age of the themepark mmorpg is ending"; and it's very positive to see PFO "ahead of the curve", in this respect.
Honestly, branding it EVE in fantasy clothes is fine talking about some of the design stuff but I think suggesting GW are aiming for a different "culture" is probably worth adding in the same breathe? There's a ton of memes on how "cruel" EVE is I think is probably the biggest exception to the shorthand of "fantasy clothes EVE" (meme!).
Totally agree there AvenaOats. PFO will do things differently, no questions about it and it will work for the better part as well. Ryan has a solid history with CCP and has seen things he doesn't like so he will want to do them differently, and that is fine, I respect that. Some things in eve I wouldn't mind seeing changed.
Put people also need to understand that PFO will have the Eve influence in this game, people will see what the limits / boundaries are to it as well.
ps. get in touch with me on the MA forums ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd say one that GW might be puzzling over, that contrasts with EVE, is how to maximize "business" with the players who are most motivated in PFO? In EVE, I'm led to believe that once you're rich enough you can just buy game time via PLEX? That's great for having players integral to the game playing and influencing, but not so good for CCP's bottom line?
Actually it increases their bottom line.
People who want game money for no effort will find it... So Eve gave them a way to do that while increasing their profits. People who are wealthy in gam just sub accounts with that, and probably have more then they would have without PLEX.
People pay 19.95 or so for each PLEX
Game time for one month is 14.95
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd say one that GW might be puzzling over, that contrasts with EVE, is how to maximize "business" with the players who are most motivated in PFO? In EVE, I'm led to believe that once you're rich enough you can just buy game time via PLEX? That's great for having players integral to the game playing and influencing, but not so good for CCP's bottom line?
PLEX = bought from CCP so they will see the money from it
basically what happens is the following.
Person A buys PLEX with RL money
Person B needs gametime, has enough ISK so he uses ISK to buy the PLEX from Person A.
Money made
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd say one that GW might be puzzling over, that contrasts with EVE, is how to maximize "business" with the players who are most motivated in PFO? In EVE, I'm led to believe that once you're rich enough you can just buy game time via PLEX? That's great for having players integral to the game playing and influencing, but not so good for CCP's bottom line?
Somebody bought the PLEX that is sold to the character who is rich in game. So CCP sold the same amount of play time (or more); it was just one step removed. WURM did a similar thing, making it possible to buy play time, but directly from the company - it was more of a coin drain there. I think both methods work, and both likely reduce the amount of coin sales.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The end of this thread is exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to discourage.
Don't just wharble-garble at one another in a pissing contest. I guarantee you that most of the people who read to the end of this thread aren't coming back to read it again. Most people don't want to watch a couple of anonymous internet posters slap one another in the face over and over.
When you find yourself tempted to get involved in this kind of round-robin face slapping .... just stop. It's not constructive. It's de-constructive because a certain number of people see it and conclude "Yup, just like EVE. Toxic."
Let's end this thread here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The flat power curve we have been told about could make lowbie zergs more likely than in Eve rather than less, all else being functionally equal.
Fortunately for those who want to play the game rather than be played, there are to be various inhibitors, at least according to my current grasp of the design.
The biggest difference is the difference in GW vs CCP's ideas on what they want. CCP flat out says props to those who get ahead via zerg tactics. GW says, if their mechanics allow that kind of behavior then their mechanics will change.
Even a flat power curve could be fairly easy to control. If it takes 2 weeks to reach point X where they could competently zerg, and 1 hour of zerging gets rep etc... to the point where a big red flag follows them around, anywhere moderately worth zerging they can expect to be killed by either an NPC guard, or PCs that can plainly see their actions have been deplorable. then the time/benefit ratio is pretty whack, and it isn't really worth many people's time to try and cause harm in this manner.
Then they can tweak the scales so that the older a character is, the more set he is... IE a 8 month old character, has a much harder time of drifting, it can get away with far more, but when he drifts, he still is out of luck in the same manner.
The biggest thing is, throwaway zergers time of fun, has to be made monumentally worse than their time of trashing, with that limiter in place, the harm they can do, is barely noticable.
GW has control of the scales, and can work to find the balance where legitimate PVPers can still play, but throwaway without consiquences is a lot of work for very little fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What baffles me about the complaints about Zerg tactic is, yes it's there (in eve a valid tactic) but look up video's from Rook and Kings from Eve (I can link 'em if people want) and then check they skill work, teamplay and dedication to what they want to achieve.
If you play the cards right then yes you can take down bigger groups but it means those involved with you need to know their role, their strengths and their weaknesses.
it is something to consider
sidenote: I have grown bored of the whole blobbing part in eve with the use of SC's / Titans etc and decided to end up for small scale fun since that is where more fun and skill is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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sidenote: I have grown bored of the whole blobbing part in eve with the use of SC's / Titans etc and decided to end up for small scale fun since that is where more fun and skill is.
Exactly right, that is where the fun of the game is. Small groups, quick action, everyone knows their role... More play then just F1
Sent you a PM
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is what will happen once the game has reached a certain level of sophistication and paranoia. Say, 48 hours after launch....
You apply for membership in a Settlement.
The recruiting officer for that Settlement contacts you and directs you to go to a webpage they have built. On that page you're asked a variety of personal questions - your real name, maybe a driver's license or social security number.
You'll also be asked for your account username and password. For all accounts you have.
You'll be asked to disclose all alt characters you have created, across all accounts you may have.
The Settlement will run a background check on you, and flag you for a variety of reasons uncovered in that check as undesirable.
Assuming you clear the background check, a script will be run that will log into your account and extract as much information as possible. It will look through your private messages and through the transaction log.
It will know all the characters on that account.
The script will flag potential alt characters based on behavior patterns, like giving a lot of money to a character or a valuable asset to a character without any reciprocal payment in kind.
The recruiting officer will then compare the list of alts detected to alts disclosed and will flag any ommissions for follow up questioning. Maybe you can convince the recruiter that they're characters of friends that you just give stuff too. Depends on how paranoid the recruiter is.
They'll also flag interactions with any characters known to the Settlement to be trolls, spies, RMT sellers, false fronts, etc. You'll have to explain those interactions as well.
Maintaining two strictly separate identities is very hard, thus few people are able to do it. Of course those that can do it are pretty valuable as double agents, spies, thieves, backstabbers, etc. so it can be lucrative.
There's an entity in EVE (Guiding Hand Social Club) that makes epic stories out of their ability to do this. But for every Guiding Hand...
So if I am forced to give up my social security number or drivers license to play YOUR game, you become liable for any and all damages and costs should said info be used to perpetrate identity theft correct?
I hope you have one hell of an insurance policy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...Here is what will happen once the game has reached a certain level of sophistication and paranoia. Say, 48 hours after launch....
You apply for membership in a Settlement.
The recruiting officer for that Settlement contacts you and directs you to go to a webpage they have built. On that page you're asked a variety of personal questions - your real name, maybe a driver's license or social security number.
You'll also be asked for your account username and password. For all accounts you have.
You'll be asked to disclose all alt characters you have created, across all accounts you may have.
The Settlement will run a background check on you, and flag you for a variety of reasons uncovered in that check as undesirable.
Assuming you clear the background check, a script will be run that will log into your account and extract as much information as possible. It will look through your private messages and through the transaction log.
It will know all the characters on that account.
The script will flag potential alt characters based on behavior patterns, like giving a lot of money to a character or a valuable asset to a character without any reciprocal payment in kind.
The recruiting officer will then compare the list of alts detected to alts disclosed and will flag any ommissions for follow up questioning. Maybe you can convince the recruiter that they're characters of friends that you just give stuff too. Depends on how paranoid the recruiter is.
They'll also flag interactions with any characters known to the Settlement to be trolls, spies, RMT sellers, false fronts, etc. You'll have to explain those interactions as well.
Maintaining two strictly separate identities is very hard, thus few people are able to do it. Of course those that can do it are pretty valuable as double agents, spies, thieves, backstabbers, etc. so it can be lucrative.
There's an entity in EVE (Guiding Hand Social Club) that makes epic stories out of their ability to do
Just to clarify, it was the guild you are applying to that requests that info. I think you are probably welcome to give up your efforts to join...and still play PFO as you were.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The end of this thread is exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to discourage.
Don't just wharble-garble at one another in a pissing contest. I guarantee you that most of the people who read to the end of this thread aren't coming back to read it again. Most people don't want to watch a couple of anonymous internet posters slap one another in the face over and over.
When you find yourself tempted to get involved in this kind of round-robin face slapping .... just stop. It's not constructive. It's de-constructive because a certain number of people see it and conclude "Yup, just like EVE. Toxic."
Let's end this thread here.
I concur it needs to stop, but I wish to offer up a reasonably nonpartisan observation: with bipolar issues like this the one side has difficulty allowing the pseudo-closing arguments of the other stand unanswered and that leads to these restatements of the respective positions ad infinitum.
There is no apparent effort to reconcile the two camps, only redundant polarity.
My recommendation is to engage in dialogue where each side is honestly seeking reconciliation, growing the threads of argument back together not in compromise but evolution. Seek the elements of your positions that you share and accentuate those: Identify the differences and find ways for them to work together.
The object illuminated by the strobe of contradicting one another is less helpful than finding a shared understanding the object itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...social security number...
Ryan was describing an expectation that player organizations would be collecting personal identifying information to include the means of identity theft, but I have to agree I am appalled that any intelligent player would ever in a million years open themselves in reality to such danger. I guarantee nobody should expect me to join any player organization where I am expected to be a complete and utter fool.
I strongly urge that no player organization demand personal identity information as Ryan described. Identity theft is a serious and growing threat to commerce and society. Do not be stupid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...social security number...Ryan was describing an expectation that player organizations would be collecting personal identifying information to include the means of identity theft, but I have to agree I am appalled that any intelligent player would ever in a million years open themselves in reality to such danger.
The process Ryan described is not significantly different than applying for credit at your local furniture retailer. Also, it would only apply to a small percentage of players who are actually going to be at the top tiers of Settlement/Nation management. I believe there's already an expectation that the vast majority of players would never be asked for this information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...one side has difficulty allowing the pseudo-closing arguments of the other stand unanswered...
Unfortunately, in continuing the recursive loop each side also thinks it's "arguing for the soul of the community", or, at least, the impression new visitors will get when they come to read the boards. I believe new visitors will have as little trouble as the rest of us in seeing these continued p!ss!ing contests as counter-productive, non-informative, and of no benefit in giving potential players much incentive to join us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The process Ryan described is not significantly different than applying for credit at your local furniture retailer.I think there's a world of difference between an established accountable retail company and an anonymous internet game-player.
I believe the entire point is to remove the anonymity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would fail, then. If I am asked for a National Insurance number (the UK equivalent to the US Social Security number) or I can't get access to the goodies, what is to stop me making one up? How are the other players going to make security checks?
A scan or photo of a driving licence is no problem - I bet it would take me less than an hour to knock up a fake good enough for that purpose.
The flipside is, how do you know who is asking for your details? Criminals play online games as well, and it wouldn't take much for one to set up an organisation simply as a cover for identity theft. Some free online MMOs are set up as scams to get email addresses and frequently used user names and passwords which are then used for fraud. I know, I've been the victim of one who cracked my Paypal account when I was stupid enough to use the same password (many people have a limited range of passwords they use).
I'm not, however, some internet Nanny who will wave her finger and say 'don't give out information online'. People should know all that by now, and some will be happy enough to do so in spite of the dangers. I'm just not one who will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How are the other players going to make security checks?
It's important to keep in mind that only a small fraction of the players are doing this. There's nothing to stop them from incorporating (we've already considered it at The Seventh Veil) and registering as a business and actually doing a Credit Check on you.
The flipside is, how do you know who is asking for your details?
The same way you know who is asking for your details when you apply to rent an apartment, or to buy a stereo on credit at the local pawn shop.
Obviously, no intelligent person is going to make a habit of giving their identification to any Company they join. They're only going to be willing to do that for organizations that are established, and have real-world credentials - just like a Pawn Shop, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick question Nihimon - how are you hoping to do a credit check on people who aren't in the US? You can ask all you want of my Czech bank - they won't tell you anything without my explicit permission (and I am not telling anyone anything about my financials, tyvm); my credit rating in the US is non-existent.
Asking for my personal info (financial and/or NI number) is a non-starter, and that's non-negotiable. There are plenty of other ways of checking on people (video conference etc etc) that are not so invasive of privacy, but basically, if it's a choice between PfO and my personal data, PfO loses. I am sure I will not be the only person who feels that way.
If companies want inclusive membership, they'll have to find other ways to do security checks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't having many functions under dual or triple control cover most of the risks? It would lead to a whole new level of pre-planning for players and leaders, of course--can you imagine triple control for access to the Company bank?--but if that's what keeps a Company functioning...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick question Nihimon - how are you hoping to do a credit check on people who aren't in the US? You can ask all you want of my Czech bank - they won't tell you anything without my explicit permission...
First, I have no clue if we'll ever want to run a credit check on anyone.
Second, if I don't have your explicit permission to do so, I can't run a credit check on you in the US either.
Third, I may be misreading what Ryan meant when he said "background check".
Please don't take the fact that I'm trying to explain my understanding of what Ryan said as an indication that I agree with it, or plan to follow it, or would ever consider submitting myself to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The process Ryan described is not significantly different than applying for credit at your local furniture retailer. Also, it would only apply to a small percentage of players who are actually going to be at the top tiers of Settlement/Nation management. I believe there's already an expectation that the vast majority of players would never be asked for this information.
There is a HUGE difference. Your local furnature retailer has to go through tons of security checks, compliances, etc... to be able to opperate, and has tons of legal recourses if they do not comply, as well as liabilities to themselves if details are hacked, stolen etc...
The credit checking etc... A criminal hacker who discovered a list of SSN's saved in a google doc of a group of 100... that could be disasterous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems absurd to me that a player organization would request such information from their membership in an environment where developers get death threats in RL for tweaking the attributes of an in-game weapon, and scamming is alarmingly frequent. There is serious and real hazard in giving anyone my social security number, my mother's middle name, my date of birth, and my home address and phone number. I might as well send you a duplicate of all my credit cards and account numbers along with it because any of those would be a simple matter to obtain once you have all that.
If Seventh Veil intends to be doing anything like that I will definitely remain very far away from affiliating with Seventh Veil and never, under any circumstances recommend them to anyone.
Period.
My recommendation is for GW to issue a unique userID to each account for players to establish their identity and use that instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Continuing with the background check discussion is useless... As Ryan clarified it only happens if you are given a position that you can destroy the Alliance (Settlement). Not for just joining.
Expect a screen shot of your login screen, review of your company history, and a look at any tools GW makes available for mails and etc if any.
End of discussion.