So I'm trying to make a Magus that weilds a rapier and I'm trying to find ways to gain vaule from the fact that my second hand will be empty even when not using spell combat.
So far I'm aware of the Crane Wing - A solid option but pretty feat heavy
and
Duelist levels - also feat heavy and tanks my caster level.
what, if anything am I missing?
Thanks
- Torger
*edit* the closer to pathfinder core the more likely I'll be able to use it.
Wands.
Blackbloodtroll, you cannot two-hand the rapier to get 1+1/2 Strength bonus to damage.
Deflect Arrow
which would be a second reason to have improved unarmed strike (the first being crane wing.)
Also before anybody else jumps on it
Snapping Turtle Style
- Torger
Unarmed strikes. Spiked gauntlets. The Bird.
To make any decent attempt at doing this I'd need Two-Weapon fighting though yea?
- Torger
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Unarmed strikes. Spiked gauntlets. The Bird.To make any decent attempt at doing this I'd need Two-Weapon fighting though yea?
- Torger
Yea!
Combined with Quick Draw and a thrown weapon (alternatively: EWP: shuriken), TWF will remain useful when you run out of spells, or just don't want to cast them.
Does wearing a gauntlet count as a sufficiently empty hand to be allowed to use spell combat?
- Torger
This is probably easier said than actually done: get a natural claw attack somehow and make an additional attack at -5.
The quickdraw shield BBT mentioned seems to be a good idea though, more defense in those rounds where you need it.
I know you said rapier, but if you use another one-handed weapon you can actually two-hand wield that.
This is probably easier said than actually done: get a natural claw attack somehow and make an additional attack at -5.
The quickdraw shield BBT mentioned seems to be a good idea though, more defense in those rounds where you need it.
I know you said rapier, but if you use another one-handed weapon you can actually two-hand wield that.
Yeah I knew that going in. Scimitar is really the best magus weapon out there for that reason but rapier is a non negociable part of the character I have in mind.
Quick draw sheild is probably the mechanicaly best option but I think I'm going to have a look at my feats and see if I can squeeze in two-weapon fighting to use a gauntlet. Unless something else pops up here that's more appealing.
- Torger
If it isn't PFS you could go dervish dance and dip one level of unarmed fighter to get most of crane wing in. Not a great option but not terribly crippling although you do still have to deal with the BAB +5 prereq which on a 3/4 class would be level 7 and you lose out on a casting level which can be sad.
Dosen't dervish dance only work with scimitars?
As dips go you're right unarmed fighter is probably the way to go.
- Torger
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Does wearing a gauntlet count as a sufficiently empty hand to be allowed to use spell combat?
- Torger
Yes.
From the CRB entry on locked gauntlet:-
'While the gauntlet is locked, you can't use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills.'
This means that while the gauntlet is unlocked you can 'use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills'.
That's the locked gauntlet. There is no verbiage for either 'gauntlet' or 'spiked gauntlet' that stops hands so clad from casting spells, using skills/weapons etc.
This makes sense. Gauntlets are primarily armour, not weapons. They are included on the weapons table because you need to know the game effects of punching someone while wearing them (they make the damage lethal; without them unarmed strikes do non-lethal). Spiked gauntlets are gauntlets with spikes on. There may be a tweak or two to help the weapon aspect, but both types of gauntlet are designed to allow you to use the hand!
A spiked gauntlet needs no feat, needs no action to 'draw' or 'sheathe', and allows you to
use it, or another weapon, or cast a spell.
They weigh 1lb and cost 5gp; a steal! Masterwork versions cost 305gp. Mithral versions
cost 505gp.
Made for a small character, a spiked gauntlet weighs 1/2lb, a masterwork version costs 305gp and a mithral version costs 255gp! That's right! Due to a lack of pricing for mithral weapons, they count as 'other items' and cost 500gp/lb. Or rather, 500 gp per pound of what the item would weigh if it were made of steel!
I know it's stupid on two fronts. It's because in D&D 3.5 there was very little reason to buy mithral weapons, but in Pathfinder they now count as silver for overcoming DR. This is a good idea. The trouble is, now that there is a reason to make mithral weapons, there should have been a price for them. Either a flat price (like +3000 for adamantine/+60 for ammunition) or a price varying by type (light/one-handed/two-handed/ammunition) like alchemical silver. It would also help mitigate the absurdity that, even though the listed price for mithral items is 500gp/lb, to buy a mithral item weighing one pound costs 1000gp!
A spiked gauntlet needs no feat, needs no action to 'draw' or 'sheathe', and allows you to
use it, or another weapon, or cast a spell.
Are you sugesting that a plain gauntlet does need a feat? I don't see why it would it's listed under simple weapons after all. I'd rather have a blugeoning weapon than a peircing one since my primary weapon will already be peircing.
Funny, mithral counting as silver has been a house rule at our table for some time I never knew pathfinder had made it official. As you showed above they defiantely dropped the ball on the price thing though.
- Torger
A plain gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack which means you'd provoke when using it while a spiked one is considered armed and so no provoking.
Edit: Also a larger damage die on the spiked one.
Suppose that kinda makes sense.
- Torger
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A plain gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack which means you'd provoke when using it while a spiked one is considered armed and so no provoking.
Edit: Also a larger damage die on the spiked one.
Ninja'd in advance!
You could get the feat Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten/avoid AoOs, but feats are valuable. Is it worth a feat to you?
As for Dervish Dance working for rapiers; I wish! Buy your generous DM chocolates every session!
For the rest of us, Dervish Dance is based on the real-world Whirling Dervishes. Their spinning dance complement a one-handed slashing weapon, but not a long thrusting weapon like the rapier. The Whirling Dervishes were very successful, at least until they met the British Army armed with early versions of the heavy machine gun!
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Two-weapon fighting w/rapier & "touch attack" - Rapier would still also be a spellstrike attack so again you would discharge potentially two "touches" of Chill Touch + one rapier attack (perhaps more than one)
continue until you run out of touch attacks.
Then repeat if necessary.
Nice thing about this type of tactic would be that if you get any AoO's you should still be able to take them with your rapier but also deliver a touch attack with each one (at least that is how I would rule Spellstrike as a GM and how I think it works even at a PFS table)
That's not how I would rule it.
For one thing you're only going to get one casting of "Chill Touch" a round, so I don't see how you get to deliver two spell effects.
You also don't get to cast a spell as part of an attack of opportunity.
The wording of "Spellstrike" could be clearer, but it doesn't say you get to cast the spell as part of a melee attack - it says you can choose to deliver the spell through a weapon (and get a free melee attack to do so).
So your normal per-round damage (before you get iteratives) would be one spell plus two melee attacks, and an attack of opportunity would be only a melee attack.
A Glove of Storing can help utilize the free hand as well.
one level dip in musketeer cavalier and twf rapier / pistol
For one thing you're only going to get one casting of "Chill Touch" a round, so I don't see how you get to deliver two spell effects.
I just looked it up. Each casting of chill touch grants one touch attack/level.
I'd have to agree with Rycaut
- Torger
A Glove of Storing can help utilize the free hand as well.
That opens up some interesting possibilities
- Torger
Two-weapon fighting w/rapier & "touch attack" - Rapier would still also be a spellstrike attack so again you would discharge potentially two "touches" of Chill Touch + one rapier attack (perhaps more than one)
continue until you run out of touch attacks.
Then repeat if necessary.
Nice thing about this type of tactic would be that if you get any AoO's you should still be able to take them with your rapier but also deliver a touch attack with each one (at least that is how I would rule Spellstrike as a GM and how I think it works even at a PFS table)
That's not how I would rule it.
For one thing you're only going to get one casting of "Chill Touch" a round, so I don't see how you get to deliver two spell effects.
You also don't get to cast a spell as part of an attack of opportunity.
The wording of "Spellstrike" could be clearer, but it doesn't say you get to cast the spell as part of a melee attack - it says you can choose to deliver the spell through a weapon (and get a free melee attack to do so).
So your normal per-round damage (before you get iteratives) would be one spell plus two melee attacks, and an attack of opportunity would be only a melee attack.
JohnF: That is actually correct once you are in higher levels and have multiple touches from a single casting. Any successful attack discharges another use of the spell until you run out.
Another approach would be to specialize in spells that leave your open hand with touch "charge" - spells like Frostbite or Chill Touch which are somewhat nice in that they scale up with levels (in terms of # of touch attacks you get with one casting of each spell)
Personally I wouldn't recommend Style feats for a magus as you often would have other things you want to do at the start of combat with a swift action (like use arcane pool to enchant your rapier - which hopefully is already a +1 agile rapier so your arcane pool could either make it a keen +2 agile rapier or a +3 agile rapier (assuming you are at least 5th level)
That also neatly circumvents (or at least mitigates) another problem being the low number of spells per day.
For the most part I'd agree but crane wing is too damn good to not at least get a look.
- Torger
Shields are weapons too.
No arguement here, just not really the look I'm going for.
- Torger
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A plain gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack which means you'd provoke when using it while a spiked one is considered armed and so no provoking.
Edit: Also a larger damage die on the spiked one.
Ninja'd in advance!
You could get the feat Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten/avoid AoOs, but feats are valuable. Is it worth a feat to you?
As for Dervish Dance working for rapiers; I wish! Buy your generous DM chocolates every session!
For the rest of us, Dervish Dance is based on the real-world Whirling Dervishes. Their spinning dance complement a one-handed slashing weapon, but not a long thrusting weapon like the rapier. The Whirling Dervishes were very successful, at least until they met the British Army armed with early versions of the heavy machine gun!
Dervish Dancing has never been an actual combat style, it's a form of prayer dance. Dervish orders sometimes fought people sure, but they never actually spun around in circles at close quarters with a bladed weapon.
Think about the actual mechanics of doing that in a life or death scenario pretty stupid huh.|
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JohnF: That is actually correct once you are in higher levels and have multiple touches from a single casting. Any successful attack discharges another use of the spell until you run out.
Duh. I was conflating this with another discussion talking about low-level magus builds. Yeah - if you've got touches left, they'll deliver through the weapon.
(I should think of that, really - I've got a magus character who has the spell, but I've only actually played him a couple of times)
So here's what I've got so far. Any optimizer would tear this to shreds in a second but I'm not nesicarily concerned about making the "the best" possible character. I am concerned with at least being functional.
Human Magus - 25 point buy
Str - 13
Dex - 18
Con - 14
Int - 14
Wis - 7
Cha - 14 (total waste mechanicly I know but for me that's the point of 25 point buy. If it helps pretend it's a 20 point but character)
Feats
H - Two Weapon Fighting
1st - Weapon Finese
3rd - Power Attack
5th - ???
M1 - Craft Arms and Armor (magic marts aren't common)
7th - Intensified spell (mostly for shocking grasp)
9th - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11th - Improved Critical
M2 - Weapon Focus Rapier
13th - Weapon Specialization Rapier
15th - ??? Considering Greater Two Weapon Figthing but the more I think about it they more I conclued that the 3rd attack with the gauntlet will never hit
17th - Critical Focus
M3 - Bleeding Crit
19th - ????
Basic Gear
- Rapier: Concentrating on enhancement bonuses and the agile property
- Spiked Gauntlet: probably not super pimped out but at leat +1. This is mostly to get more attacks on mooks. Spell combat for the big threats
- Light Armor: the best I can get my hands on but will downgrade to lighter armor as my dex bonus goes up. Likely ending up with bracers of armor at the end of the day.
1st level spells
- Chill Touch
- Frostbite
- Shocking Grasp
- ???
Magus Arcana
- Haven't reall gotten here at all. Is next on my to do list.
Thoughts?
- Torger
*edit* swapped the feats around a bit.
Yes the nifty thing about Frostbite and Chill Touch is that they give one touch attack per level - so though they are low level spells and aren't massive damage they do last well through many combats even at higher levels when you have iterative attacks - combined with potentially AoO's and you can start to have some fairly effective builds w/o a lot of spells being cast.
The problem I have with this is that the charges after the initial casting can't be used with Spell Combat, since you're not casting a spell. So you don't get a free touch attack or melee attack. They only add a small bit of damage to your regular iterative attack routine. And if you cast another touch attack spell--say, Shocking Grasp--you lose any remaining charges.
The only time I can see these being useful is if you're plum out of Shocking Grasps, or conserving resources expecting to need them later...
Am I missing something?
The problem I have with this is that the charges after the initial casting can't be used with Spell Combat, since you're not casting a spell. So you don't get a free touch attack or melee attack. They only add a small bit of damage to your regular iterative attack routine. And if you cast another touch attack spell--say, Shocking Grasp--you lose any remaining charges.The only time I can see these being useful is if you're plum out of Shocking Grasps, or conserving resources expecting to need them later...
Assuming that interpretation of spell combat is correct (and I'm not taking a stand either way on that right now) Two weapon fighting will still allow tou to get a touch attack every round following the first with your offhand.
Yes it would mostly be a conservation of resources thing.
- Torger
You're right it's not going to get you free attacks but adding a free 1d6+str dam. or +level damage isn't a bad thing to have and depending on the harshness of your DM conserving resources can be pretty darn important.
And it is at my table for sure. No 15 minute adventuring days around here I tell you what.
- Torger
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The only time I can see these being useful is if you're plum out of Shocking Grasps, or conserving resources expecting to need them later...
Am I missing something?
Conserving resources isn't a bad thing at low levels.
(although if last week's stupidity repeats itself, I'll be hard put to make enough successful melee attacks in the course of an entire scenario to run myself out of spells, even if I didn't have a couple of pearls of power as backup. Level 3, Gifted Adept(shocking grasp), and +6 to hit, and I missed on five successive attacks against AC19 - my dice hate me).
And worth noting that sometimes it is really good to do non lethal damage (1d6+level without a cap is also not horrible) plus good chance to fatigue your enemy). With two weapon fighting you would actually get to do two touches a round. One as a spell strike through your rapier and the other as a second weapon attack via your empty hand. (Either as a touch attack or as a weapon attack if you have a second weapon or improved unarmed strike). But to do this would require two weapon fighting if you want to minimize the penalties.
I just looked up frostbite
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frostbite?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2 Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F
and I don't see anything about more than one touch attack.
- Torger
Are you allowed 3rd party material? My magus (who uses a longsword) uses the Touche feat from Super Genius Games Feats of Battle. Its kind of like reverse power attack.
I just looked up frostbite
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frostbite?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2 Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F
and I don't see anything about more than one touch attack.
- Torger
The last sentence: You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
It looks like you cast the spell on yourself or on another creature. That creature gains a melee touch attack (assuming it's got a limb or something to touch with) that does the listed damage and can be used a number of times based on the caster level of the caster before it's discharged. If this isn't the case, it should have been written up like Chill Touch.
The way Chill Touch is written, only the caster can use the touch attacks.
The last sentence: You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
Yup, I stand corrected that's me not reading carefuly a six in the morning :/
- Torger
Are you allowed 3rd party material? My magus (who uses a longsword) uses the Touche feat from Super Genius Games Feats of Battle. Its kind of like reverse power attack.
Not really. It's not a 100% no-go but it's mostly avoided.
- Torger