Lets say an unattended item is at the feet of your opponent:
1) If you kick it does it provoke an AoO?
2) What if the item was within the reach of your opponent?
3) What if you used your weapon instead of your foot?
4) How far does the item go? Do you do a Reposition on the unattended object?
5) What kind of action would this be?
Situation: Ally disarmed an opponent and the enemy's weapon falls into their square. The enemy hasn't acted so I want to kick the weapon away from the enemy so he can't pick it up.
1. kicking an item does not provoke. Consider like a bull rush on the item. The item does not threaten so no AOO occurs.
2. still no
3. no
4 & 5 there is no rules for this that I am aware of. You could argue a move action or standard.
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Actually, kicking an item, in your opponents' square, could very well provoke an attack of opportunity. You are making an unarmed attack while threatened by an opponent right? That provokes an AoO if you don't have Imp. Unarmed Strike.
Look at other actions similar to it as well. Picking up an item provokes an AoO, retrieving a stowed item provokes an AoO, moving a Heavy Object provokes an attack of opportunity. I would say there is more support in the rules for this action to A) be a move or attack action, and B) Provoke an attack of Opportunity, than otherwise.
I would say there is more support in the rules for this action to A) be a move or attack action, and B) Provoke an attack of Opportunity, than otherwise.
Unless your foe has Improved Unarmed Strike or is wielding a second weapon in his offhand, he doesn't provoke anyway, as he's just been disarmed.
The unarmed attack is only from the creature your targeting.
Lets say an unattended item is at the feet of your opponent:
1) If you kick it does it provoke an AoO?
I would definitely say YES.2) What if the item was within the reach of your opponent?
Again YES, unless it is in your square.
3) What if you used your weapon instead of your foot?
Iffy, but I still say YES.
4) How far does the item go? Do you do a Reposition on the unattended object?
Since there is no rule I know of covering this I would say 5-10 ft, probably improvising a check at the time it happened.
5) What kind of action would this be?
Standard.
The Ad Hoc rule we did was it did provoke an AoO, but since the opponent didn't have a threatening weapon nothing was done. The distance was as if "throwing" a weapon with a 5-foot range increment with a -4 to that roll because of an improvised weapon.
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In my opinion it would provoke. You are manipulating an item in yours/adjacent square. The same as if you were picking up an item in your square would provoke because you are doing something other than keeping your guard up against attacks from the target.
From that point you can answer all your other questions.
I would view it as an attack against that item.
Definately not manipulating an item because it is a smack.
Why would a kick provoke an AoO?
You can attack X, turn 180 and attack Y without provoking AoO from any of them, so why is it that kicking an inanimate object provokes AoO?
Do people simply like to punish players for creative ideas?
I'd rule that NO, it does not provoke AoO, but it does use a move action. And then I'd commend the player for thinking outside the box instead of repeating "I full attack. I full attack. I full attack... with Power Attack."
Lemmy we agree completely on this one.
Looks like this question was answered by Jason Bulmahn Lead Designer in the latest Pazio Blog:
Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an attack of opportunity? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that cannot reach you, no matter what action you are taking, even if it includes reaching into a threatened space. Although it might seem realistic to allow an attack in such a case, it would make the game far too complicated.
So answering my original question:
1) Yes
2) Yes, only if the enemy also threatens your square
3) Yes
4) *varies*
5) Standard Action
4) *varies*
How do you determine how far a kicked item goes?
I've seen the FAQ, but I still mantain my opinion. I'm not convinced kicking a inanimate object counts as "manipulating" it.
I can see it provoking an AoO if you try to pick up an object, pull a lever, open a lock, push a rock or something that takes an equal amount of effort/concentration or at least requires you to use your hands.
Kicking a sword away? I can't see how that would provoke an AoO anymore than attacking a different enemy or taking a 5-foot step. It doesn't even require a lot of coordination, dexterity or strength, unless you are trying to kick the sword in a specific direction, which doesn't seem to be the case.
You can kick the object without lowering your guard. Your sword/shield/whatever is still up, after all.
I think the issue when getting an AoO when you try to manipulate an item when the enemy threatens both your square and the square you are attempting to manipulate is that you are taking your attention away from your opponent and thus they are able to get a free attack in.
Thing is, you can turn your back to your opponent and attack a second opponent without provoking AoOs from neither of them.
You can also draw a hidden weapon, activate magic items, mount a horse and extinguish flames.
All of that without provoking AoOs.
Kicking a inanimate object seems relatively simple and safe compared to that. It's not like it's really distracting you from the enemy, you merely kick something with the side of your foot. No need to lower your guard or even take your eyes off the enemy.
Thing is, you can turn your back to your opponent and attack a second opponent without provoking AoOs from neither of them.
You can also draw a hidden weapon, activate magic items, mount a horse and extinguish flames.
All of that without provoking AoOs.
Kicking a inanimate object seems relatively simple and safe compared to that. It's not like it's really distracting you from the enemy, you merely kick something with the side of your foot. No need to lower your guard or even take your eyes off the enemy.
In this scenario, the kicker is either using a limb to perform a melee attack in a square occupied by an opponent, or he is entering, then exiting (passing through) that space. In either case, he is going to provoke. That's the heart of the argument, and it's the thing that is going ignored.
This is combat. He is not idly wandering down the street, stopping at a corner, and kicking absentmindedly at a can. He is moving a part of his body into a threatened square, during combat, without a feat that allows him to do so without provoking an AoO.
There is no facing in Pathfinder, so "turning your back" is irrelevant to AoO. Drawing a hidden weapon only avoids provoking when you succeed on a Sleight of Hand check. That's not because the action itself is not distracting, it's because you fooled the other guy into thinking you aren't performing the action at all. Activating a magic item IN YOUR HAND does not provoke, because it's like pulling the trigger on a gun, but pulling that magic item out CAN provoke.
Mounting a horse... I can only imagine the designers consider that the same as a five-foot-step. It should provoke, but since we're just slinging arbitrary "proofs" out now, controlling your nervous mount DOES provoke, so there.
Note that using a skill that requires 1 action "usually" does provoke. Now, ask yourself what kind of action/roll is required to kick the item? Is it a move action? Is it a standard action? If you refuse to think of the kick as an attack, then you still have to decide on what action it is. Whatever it is, it provokes. Kicking an inanimate object at the foot of an enemy bearing a sharp weapon is never a safe or simple act. But whatever it is, it IS still an action of some kind. If it is not an attack, it is an ability check or a skill, and all things equal, those provoke.
Now, if you try to bat the object away with your weapon, that MIGHT be a different story. If you are a monk, and your unarmed attacks count as armed, it's a different story. But you don't enter an opponent's space, or threatened space, unarmed (which your foot and leg MOST DEFINITELY ARE, ARE, ARE) without the feat, without provoking.
Come on, now. Seriously.
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I see this less as a situation which requires a definite ruleset in place and more of an occasional occurrence requiring a spot DM decision. As a DM myself, I wouldn't allow them to kick the weapon in the same round they made the disarm for the simple fact of abuse. Set a rule for it and allow them to do it and they'll build a character around it. You'll never have armed NPCs again unless you build them to avoid just that.
