In the case of AOO, this would have to be kept track of. If I am still wielding a Double Weapon as a One-handed/Light Off-hand Weapon and it's the creature's turn and they provoke AOO, I would only either get base or half-base Strength and Power Attack modifiers for damage; something that may easily be lost track of or forgotten, and the DM would be scratching his head, thinking Double weapons are broken and would ban them for the next campaign, or double-check with the PC and question his credibility, something a PC would be quite ashamed of.
Yeah but, why would someone ever do that? There's no mechanical advantage of wielding your double-weapon as two independant weapons when it's not your turn, you should always wield it as a two-handed weapon between your turns.
In this case, thinking on it a little further, I think that because of the wording on Crane Style, as soon as you put your hand back on the Greatsword, you nullify the requirement of the ability and lose the benefit.
You could resolve the Deflection and counter attack, and then grab the greatsword again, but you couldn't counter with the greatsword because you'd no longer have a hand free while doing it.
In this case, thinking on it a little further, I think that because of the wording on Crane Style, as soon as you put your hand back on the Greatsword, you nullify the requirement of the ability and lose the benefit.
You could resolve the Deflection and counter attack, and then grab the greatsword again, but you couldn't counter with the greatsword because you'd no longer have a hand free while doing it.
The feats only require you to have a free hand when deflecting the attack.
It then says upon a deflecting an attack with Crane Wing, they provoke an attack of opportunity after the deflection; by this point you could then use the Immediate Action feat to wield the Greatsword that was in one hand back to two hands and resolve the Attack of Opportunity by attacking with the Greatsword.
Not sure. I think the AoO is supposed to be part of the Deflection. This might be worth an FAQ
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In fact, I can two weapon fight with a longsword and dagger, and drop my dagger and two hand my longsword when I make my attack of opportunity.
This is more than is required to get x1.5 strength on a attack of opportunity with a double weapon which you are wielding with two hands.
Two handing a weapon you are wielding with two hands should not be an acrobatic feat.
In fact, I can two weapon fight with a longsword and dagger, and drop my dagger and two hand my longsword when I make my attack of opportunity.
This is more than is required to get x1.5 strength on a attack of opportunity with a double weapon which you are wielding with two hands.
Two handing a weapon you are wielding with two hands should not be an acrobatic feat.
Dropping an item is a free action, so you would need to drop your dagger before the end of your turn.
Yes, there is. I gave an example as to how it should work; if you use a Double Weapon in 1 hand, you only get base or half-base (if it's in the off-hand), the same as TWF, where you get base on your One-handed side, and half-base on your Off-handed side.
Even if you can use it as a Two-Handed Weapon, it's not something that is just assumed by the DM; the RAW text treats wielding it as a One-Handed/Light Off-Hand Weapon or as a Two-Handed Weapon, something the character chooses to do. I will agree that I was wrong in saying you can only use one end or the other, and not both for using it as a Two-Handed Weapon, but you can still only use one end in a given attack in regards to wielding it as a Two-Handed Weapon (which is obvious), since the weapon is treated as a single weapon in this manner, not two different ones.
The point as to why the RAW text says you can wield it in one of two ways is for the purposes of utilizing feats, and their adverse effects, including Strength Modifiers.
It says you can use a Double Weapon as if fighting with two weapons, using it as a One-Handed Primary Weapon/Light Off-Hand Weapon, which would mean benefits from Power Attack and Strength would be Base/Half-Base bonuses, respectively.
When wielding it as a Two-Handed Weapon, this amount would change from Base/Half-Base bonuses to 1.5X Base bonuses in any given attack, and is a key reason as to why a character must keep track (and must let the GM know) as to how he wields his weapon. It'd be powergaming (and technically cheating as well) to make an AOO as 1.5x Base Strength when you were wielding the weapon as a One-Handed Primary Weapon/Light Off-Hand Weapon for TWF within that round.
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Under "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons":
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
...
Under "Special":
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.Lets take a sample double weapon, the humble Quarterstaff. It's listed as a 2-h melee weapon with the double special. So, first and foremost, it's a 2-h melee weapon. It requires two hands to wield and you get 1.5x Str Bonus on damage rolls. Then, has the double special which says "You can fight as if fighting with two weapons (TWF) but you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed and a light weapon." It specifies the attack penalties of TWF, it says nothing about changing damage modifiers. Damage modifiers are specified under the light/1-h/2-h section, not under TWF or double weapon sections. So, by a strict reading of the rules, when you TWF with a 2-h double weapon (and I don't think there are any double weapons that aren't 2-h), you get 1.5x str on both attacks. The passage on wielding it by one end only specifies that it is an option and that doing so only allows you to use a single head of the weapon in combat because "double" isn't a way to wield something, just a special ability like reach, trip, or monk.
Unless I am misunderstanding your point, I disagree that you would apply 1.5 STR bonus to both ends if you're using it to gain the extra attack. You are TWF with the staff: one end is the primary end, the other is the off-hand end.
That's what you're telling me is how it would work.
The weapon functions as either a One-Handed Primary/Light Off-Hand Weapon, or a Two-Handed Weapon, granting Base/Half-Base, or 1.5X Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers, respectively.
You're saying there is no difference between how it functions, that I can attack with it however I want; it doesn't work that way, and is something a GM most certainly would not let fly.
I'm not going to make a Full Attack Option, deal X and Y amounts of damage with my attacks, and then when they provoke an AOO, I deal Z damage because I make the attack with two hands at one end. A GM is going to scoff at the damage difference and the modifiers I used in that attack.
It does not work that way. In any PFS game, and most certainly in many homebrew/casual games, you would not get away with dealing Base/Half-Base Strength and Power Attack modifiers in your Full Attack, and deal 1.5X Base Strength and Power Attack modifiers in your AOO within the same round. There is no rules that say you can change how you use the weapon outside of your turn, just like how there are feats that allow you to make 5 ft. follow-ups as an Immediate Action (when before, it didn't consume an action, and thusly means it cannot be used outside your turn). The same concept applies. You can't change how you choose to wield your weapon outside your turn unless you have a feat or some other text saying you can do so.
Blah
No.
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The Double Weapon says a character fights with 2 weapons, incurring all standard attack penalties using two weapons equivalent to using that of a One-Handed Weapon and a Light Weapon.
Even with your example, under the Light Weapons description, a Light Weapon cannot ever use 1.5X Strength/Power Attack Modifiers, as it says two-handing a light weapon does not adjust its Strength or Power Attack modifiers beyond its base, meaning even with your example sound according to Double Weapon description, it defies the definition of Light Weapons, meaning the example does not function as you say it does.
You're saying there is no difference between how it functions, that I can attack with it however I want; it doesn't work that way, and is something a GM most certainly would not let fly.
They would if they understood the rules.
That's what we're trying to explain to you.
You do not need to 'declare' how in two hands you are holding your double weapon as there is not more than one way.
When you make your attack for that round you decide many things about it. Some of these last the entire round, others only for the attack sequence you've begun.
Please think this through. While we learn this game at the table, we also learn mistakes at the table. And that's what I'm thinking is happening here for you.
-James
You can't wield a double weapon as both a Two-Handed Weapon for 1.5x Strength and Power Attack bonuses, and as a One-Hand/Light Off-Hand Weapon for TWF at the same time. TWF and 1.5X Strength and Power Attack bonuses are mutually exclusive.
If I use TWF, I deal Base/Half-Base Strength and Power Attack bonuses for damage. If I use it as a Two-Handed weapon, I deal 1.5X Strength and Power Attack bonuses, and suffer AC penalties that may occur for not using a One-Hand/Light Off-Hand Weapon. I can't use TWF and get 1.5X Strength and Power Attack bonuses like you say we do (since there is no change as to how you use the weapon), because such functions are mutually exclusive, and a Double Weapon provides no exception to that rule.
My Fighter has a Quarterstaff and has the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. Let's say he has a 18 STR and a +6 BAB.
On his round he has a number of options to attack with.
He can move and make a single attack. Using the staff to gain 1.5 STR. Staff +10 (1d6+6)
He can Full-Attack using the staff to gain 1.5 STR.
Staff +10/+5 (1d6+6)
He can Full-Attack using Two-Weapon Fighting. He takes a -2 to all attacks during this Full-Attack to add an extra attack.
Staff +8/+3 (1d6+4) and +8 (1d6+2)
Okay. Those are options he can make on his turn. All of those options require the Fighter to wield the staff in both hands.
After his turn is over, upon the next Initiative count a goblin runs through a square threatened by the Fighter.
The Fighter takes his AoO.
Staff +10 (1d6+6)
Notice he is NOT using Two-Weapon Fighting since that's impossible. So he doesn't take a -2 to attack and he could use 1.5 STR.
Also notice through out all of his options the Fighter is ALWAYS USING TWO HANDS TO WIELD THE STAFF.
We are not debating about how a Double Weapon does not require two hands to use its attacks. It was thoroughly established that regardless of using it as two weapons, or as a two-handed weapon, it still requires two hands to use.
My point is that when you make a TWF action, you are considered using the Double Weapon as if it were two weapons, a One-Handed Weapon in your Primary and a Light Weapon in your Off-Hand.
If you make an AOO while you use the Double Weapon as described above, you would only get Base or Half-Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers (if you used your Primary or your Off-Hand end to attack, respectively). Using 1.5X strength without stating you change how you use the weapon at the end of your turn (which is something that would be prohibited being able to do outside your turn, as would be a 5 ft. step which consumes no action), as I said before, is going to have a GM scoff at your modifiers, and ask how you get those modifiers (which is what I am asking).
There is no text that says wielding a Double Weapon as two weapons allows you to treat Strength modifiers as 1.5X the base amount you normally add, other than that you use two hands for it; but those two hands are occupied by two different weapons (the One-Hand and the Light Off-Hand), which means you don't add 1.5X strength to your attacks for AOO.
My point is that when you make a TWF action, you are considered using the Double Weapon as if it were two weapons, a One-Handed Weapon in your Primary and a Light Weapon in your Off-Hand.
This is true. As i had in my example above. When using it to Two-Weapon Fight you would get STR for Primary and .5 STR for Off-hand.
If you make an AOO while you use the Double Weapon as described above, you would only get Base or Half-Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers (if you used your Primary or your Off-Hand end to attack, respectively).
You can't use a Double Weapon as such with an AoO. You only get a single attack during an AoO.
Here is a quote from Making an Attack of Opportunity.
"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round."
You'll notice in the last sentence that it doesn't matter that you've already attacked in the round. You would use your normal attack bonus using a single attack. So why couldn't you use the Double Weapon as a 2 Hand weapon for this attack?
Using 1.5X strength without stating you change how you use the weapon at the end of your turn
Please show me the rule that states as such. A quote or link please.
Otherwise you are not changing anything about how you are using the Double Weapon. When you make an attack with it is when you choose how to attack with it.
There is no text that says wielding a Double Weapon as two weapons allows you to treat Strength modifiers as 1.5X the base amount you normally add, other than that you use two hands for it;
I agree 100%. You can't use a Double Weapon to Two-Weapon Fight and still gain the 1.5 STR.
but those two hands are occupied by two different weapons (the One-Hand and the Light Off-Hand), which means you don't add 1.5X strength to your attacks for AOO.
This is where you are wrong. During the AoO you can't possible use the Double Weapon as using Two-Weapon Fighting(One Hand and Light Off-Hand) since that requires a Full-Attack action. During the AoO you only get a single attack, which while using a Double Weapon can be used to gain 1.5 STR.
There is no rule for;
stating you change how you use the weapon at the end of your turn
It doesn't exist. When you use a Double Weapon you decide how to use it when you are going to attack.
It's no different than a Magic Weapon with a property of changing the type of weapon (or weapons) you change it to.
If I have a Magic Weapon that I can change from using a Longsword and Shortsword to instead combine them and change it to a Greatsword on-command, the concept still remains, there are multiple ways to wield the weapon, but for simplicity purposes (and proper example purposes), we will only be using these two subjects.
On Command, I change using this special weapon to become a Longsword and Shortsword, and commit a full attack option with TWF. Let's say I end my turn with having my unique weapon remaining in this dual-wield state.
When it becomes the creature's turn and they do X action, which provokes an AOO from me, I can choose to either attack with the Longsword or the Shortsword. I cannot use two-hands for this attack because the weapon I currently use is in a state that it is treated as two weapons, meaning I can't two-hand a weapon unless I drop the other (which is a free action you cannot take outside your turn, and a feature that is not permissible to a Double Weapon). Because of this, I only get Base Strength Modifiers for my Primary Weapon, or Half-Base Strength Modifiers for my Off-Hand Weapon, whichever I decide to attack with. I do not get 1.5X Base Strength Modifiers on this attack because the weapon I am using is currently treated as wielding two weapons, which requires two hands, not a single, two-handed weapon.
Going back to my turn, if I instead ended my turn with changing my weapon to combine into a Greatsword, and the creature's action remains the same, I would attack with my weapon, and deal 1.5X Strength damage, since the weapon I am using is classified as a single weapon requiring two hands to wield, and as such allows me to deal 1.5X Strength for damage.
This concept is no different than using a Double Weapon (other than the whole damage die ordeal); a Double Weapon is classified as a Two-Handed Weapon that you can use to treat it as either Two Weapons, a One-Handed Primary and Light Off-Hand Weapon, or as a Two-Handed Weapon, attacking with either end (and not both simultaneously), and is chosen depending upon how the wielder wants to use the weapon.
Such a thing does not occur outside your turn, especially considering only Immediate Actions (or actions that state you can do so outside your turn, such as Speaking, which is otherwise a Free Action) can be taken outside your turn. You can't 5 ft. step outside your turn, and that doesn't even consume an action. You need a feat to do so.
The same concept here. You can't change how you use the weapon outside your turn, as there is no text saying you can do such a thing, and the only permissible solution is a feat similar to that of what is proposed in Step Up.
When it becomes the creature's turn and they do X action, which provokes an AOO from me, I can choose to either attack with the Longsword or the Shortsword. I cannot use two-hands for this attack because the weapon I currently use is in a state that it is treated as two weapons, meaning I can't two-hand a weapon unless I drop the other (which is a free action you cannot take outside your turn, and a feature that is not permissible to a Double Weapon). Because of this, I only get Base Strength Modifiers for my Primary Weapon, or Half-Base Strength Modifiers for my Off-Hand Weapon, whichever I decide to attack with. I do not get 1.5X Base Strength Modifiers on this attack because the weapon I am using is currently treated as wielding two weapons, which requires two hands, not a single, two-handed weapon.
Okay. This is true when using two separate weapons(longsword and short sword). Unless you dropped the shortsword at the end of your turn. Also the ONLY reason this would be true is because you can't 2 hand a longsword while also holding shortsword.
Just because this is true doesn't mean it works the same way for a Double Weapon, which is a SINGLE weapon that you wield in 2 hands.
You don't have to change how you are using it because nothing has changed with the Double Weapon. You decide how to use the Double Weapon when you are attacking, you can use it as a 2 Hand weapon(getting 1.5 STR) or you can Two-Weapon Fight(One Hand and Light Off-Hand). You can't combine them during the same action(you can't get 1.5 STR while using it to two-weapon fight) but every time you attack you get to choose how to use it.
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My Fighter has a Quarterstaff and has the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. Let's say he has a 18 STR and a +6 BAB.
On his round he has a number of options to attack with.
He can move and make a single attack. Using the staff to gain 1.5 STR. Staff +10 (1d6+6)
He can Full-Attack using the staff to gain 1.5 STR.
Staff +10/+5 (1d6+6)He can Full-Attack using Two-Weapon Fighting. He takes a -2 to all attacks during this Full-Attack to add an extra attack.
Staff +8/+3 (1d6+4) and +8 (1d6+2)Okay. Those are options he can make on his turn. All of those options require the Fighter to wield the staff in both hands.
After his turn is over, upon the next Initiative count a goblin runs through a square threatened by the Fighter.
The Fighter takes his AoO.
Staff +10 (1d6+6)
Notice he is NOT using Two-Weapon Fighting since that's impossible. So he doesn't take a -2 to attack and he could use 1.5 STR.
Also notice through out all of his options the Fighter is ALWAYS USING TWO HANDS TO WIELD THE STAFF.
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My point is that when you make a TWF action, you are considered using the Double Weapon as if it were two weapons, a One-Handed Weapon in your Primary and a Light Weapon in your Off-Hand.
That is correct. While you are TWF you would only get 1x STR on primary hand and .5x STR on your offhand. You can declare whichever end you want to be primary and the other is by default considered light.
Note that this is for when you are TWFing.
If you make an AOO while you use the Double Weapon as described above, you would only get Base or Half-Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers (if you used your Primary or your Off-Hand end to attack, respectively).
It is my understanding that when you make your AoO you are not two-weapon fighting any longer. You don't suffer the penalties for TWFing on your AoO do you?
Because you are holding/using your double weapon in 2-hands your AoO would would received the 1.5x STR. And, if you were using Power Attack on your previous turn you would still suffer that penalty to attack but get the 3:1 return on damage.
You don't have to change how you are using it because nothing has changed with the Double Weapon. You decide how to use the Double Weapon when you are attacking, you can use it as a 2 Hand weapon(getting 1.5 STR) or you can Two-Weapon Fight(One Hand and Light Off-Hand). You can't combine them during the same action(you can't get 1.5 STR while using it to two-weapon fight) but every time you attack you get to choose how to use it.
What RAW says you get to change how you wield a weapon on each attack? Especially when it's an AOO made outside of your own turn?
There is none. You can't made a 5 ft. step outside your turn, which can only become an Immediate Action through acquiring a certain feat. By RAW, there is no feat that can allow you to do this, and there is no text saying you can change how you use the weapon outside of your turn, even in the case of a Double Weapon, especially when before-hand it was already designated.
Also, when you use it for Two-Weapon Fighting, you treat it as if using Two Weapons; a One-Handed Weapon, and a Light Off-Hand Weapon. Which means you do not get benefits of using it as a Two-Handed Weapon for Strength and Power Attack modifiers; you get Base and Half-Base Strength and Power Attack bonuses, respectively. Not 1.5X Base as if using a single Two-Handed Weapon. At the end of your turn, if you make no change as to how you wield your weapon (which can't be made outside your turn, even if it consists of not even consuming an action), you are still treated as wielding both a One-Handed Weapon and Light Off-Hand Weapon.
If an AOO occurs outside your turn, sure, you can make the attack with one end, but you only get Base or Half-Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers, because you are still using the Double Weapon as if it were Two Weapons, not a Single Two-Handed Weapon, which is what would be required to get 1.5X Strength and Power Attack modifiers (as well as any other feats that may add bonuses or penalties).
There is no 1.5X Strength to apply on an AOO because (normally) you can't change how you wield or hold a weapon outside your turn. It defeats the importance of key feat mechanics *cough*Crane Style*cough*, and other actions which also consist of not consuming any action requires feats or other similar features to bypass a restriction such as that.
My point is that when you make a TWF action, you are considered using the Double Weapon as if it were two weapons, a One-Handed Weapon in your Primary and a Light Weapon in your Off-Hand.That is correct. While you are TWF you would only get 1x STR on primary hand and .5x STR on your offhand. You can declare whichever end you want to be primary and the other is by default considered light.
Note that this is for when you are TWFing.
If you make an AOO while you use the Double Weapon as described above, you would only get Base or Half-Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers (if you used your Primary or your Off-Hand end to attack, respectively).It is my understanding that when you make your AoO you are not two-weapon fighting any longer. You don't suffer the penalties for TWFing on your AoO do you?
Because you are holding/using your double weapon in 2-hands your AoO would would received the 1.5x STR. And, if you were using Power Attack on your previous turn you would still suffer that penalty to attack but get the 3:1 return on damage.
You are not TWF any longer, which is correct. But you are still considered wielding a One-Handed and Light Off-Hand weapon, or in other words, 2 weapons (conjoined into one, as per a Double weapon). You can't drop one of the two weapons because they're combined to two-hand and get 1.5x strength on that attack, and you can't do such an action outside your turn, because other actions that would normally take no action (5 foot follow-up) cannot be taken outside your turn unless you have the proper feats or class features to do so (Step Up feat).
You can't just use your Double Weapon as 2 Weapons then decide on an AOO that you use it as a single Two-Handed Weapon, because you can't make such an action outside your turn. If you got a feat or some other text that allows you to do this, then I concede. Until such proof is produced (or if it even exists to begin with, and isn't a matter of GM FIAT), then it isn't possible by RAW, as other actions which don't consume actions (AKA, take no action to perform) do not allow you to perform them outside your turn, and you are only allowed to do so within set conditions based on a feat.
Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Here is the RAW for a Double Weapon.
You only count as using a one-handed weapon and light weapon when using the Double Weapon to two-weapon fight.
When you take an AoO you are not two-weapon fighting.
So when you take the AoO you can choose to attack with the Double Weapon as a two-handed weapon.
It's quite simple actually.
Now that I've shown you RAW how about you dazzle me with more than your opinion.
But you choose how you fight with that Double Weapon, either as two weapons (considered a one-hand and light weapon for all related penalties), or as a two-handed weapon with using only one end in a given attack.
In order to use TWF, you must use it as two weapons. In order to utilize 1.5X Base Strength and Power Attack Modifiers, you must use it as a single, two-handed weapon. You can't have the best of both worlds when you can't choose how to wield a weapon outside your turn; they're mutually exclusive. No RAW says you can do this, and no RAW says you are only considered wielding two weapons when you TWF. It's a separate choice of wielding this weapon.
Choosing how to use a weapon does not take an action, which is nothing to argue about, but whether you can choose how to use a weapon outside your turn is a completely different matter, especially when other actions listed as the same amount of action consumption in a given round (such as a 5 ft. follow-up) does not get the liberty of being able to utilize it outside a given round in normal circumstances. The Player does not specify that he changes how he uses his Double Weapon, he is still considered using the Double Weapon as if wielding two weapons, not a single two-handed weapon using one end to attack.
Crane Style, for example, requires an open hand free. Are you thusly saying I can choose to have a hand free at the time a creature attacks me, and thusly create an open hand to deflect the attack when both hands are occupied by a weapon that takes up 2 hands? This is exactly what you are proposing with a Double Weapon granting 1.5X Strength on AOO when wielding it as two separate weapons. If this is the case, then why even require an open hand free?
The difference between your Crane Style example and Double Weapons is that nothing has changed for the Double Weapon.
For things like Crane Style, Spell Combat, Dervish Dancing, etc. They specifically call out that when you use this you can't just switch out later.
So for example Crane Style calls out for an open free hand. If you don't have that you can't use it.
Why would that happen with a Double Weapon?
If on your turn you use a Double Weapon to two-weapon fight or as a two-handed weapon you are still holding it in two hands. Nothing changes from your turn to the AoO.
You only have to count a Double Weapon as a one-handed weapon and light weapon when using it to two-weapon fight on your turn. It's not actually two different weapons, it's still a single weapon.
So even if you used it to two-weapon fight on your turn and later on in the round something provokes an AoO, you can then use it as a two-handed weapon. (Because you are not using it to two-weapon fight during the AoO.)
No matter which way you use it it's still being held in two hands to be used in those ways. NOTHING CHANGES.
The difference between your Crane Style example and Double Weapons is that nothing has changed for the Double Weapon.
For things like Crane Style, Spell Combat, Dervish Dancing, etc. They specifically call out that when you use this you can't just switch out later.
So for example Crane Style calls out for an open free hand. If you don't have that you can't use it.
Why would that happen with a Double Weapon?
If on your turn you use a Double Weapon to two-weapon fight or as a two-handed weapon you are still holding it in two hands. Nothing changes from your turn to the AoO.
You only have to count a Double Weapon as a one-handed weapon and light weapon when using it to two-weapon fight on your turn. It's not actually two different weapons, it's still a single weapon.
So even if you used it to two-weapon fight on your turn and later on in the round something provokes an AoO, you can then use it as a two-handed weapon. (Because you are not using it to two-weapon fight during the AoO.)
No matter which way you use it it's still being held in two hands to be used in those ways. NOTHING CHANGES.
I would agree if using TWF and getting 1.5X strength bonuses weren't mutually exclusive; you can only use TWF if you have two weapons. Double Weapons allow you to treat your weapon as if using a Light and Off-Hand Weapon for TWF.
Double Weapons also allow you to treat your weapon as if using it in two hands as a single, two-handed weapon, using only a single end of a weapon in a given attack; you can only get 1.5X Strength Bonuses for damage when wielding a Double Weapon in this manner.
Saying that "both use two hands to operate, their function doesn't change" would make sense if, again, the difference of effects weren't mutually exclusive. You can't TWF without using two weapons, and you can't get 1.5X Strength without using a single weapon in both hands. A Double Weapon eliminates this barrier, but isn't something that they can do on the fly. I don't say this in terms of combination within a single attack, I say this in terms of combination within an entire round.
Let's set up a mini scenario for us, you being GM and myself being a player in this Bla Blah AP. If I was using a +2 Fire/+2 Frost Orc Double Axe (and have relevant TWF feats, as well as PA and +4 Strength), and I decide to attack Creature C with a TWF Full Attack Option; in order for me to use TWF, I must wield this Double Weapon as Two Weapons, treating them as a One-Handed weapon, and a Light Off-Hand weapon. You are saying that with each side that I hit with, it would be Dice + X + Base Strength + Standard Power Attack = D damage for my primary, and Dice + Y + Half Base Strength + Reduced Power Attack = L damage for my off-hand. (This is where we are in agreement.)
Now then, this is where we start to disagree. I would say that the character that finished TWF with that Double Weapon would be considered using two weapons for the purpose of feats stacking and usage, etc. You, as a GM, would call that a character that finishes with the TWF with a Double Weapon automatically returns to wielding it as a two-handed weapon?
Skipping this, let's just say that we use my method, in saying that I must state I resort back to using it as a two-handed weapon, which I didn't on my turn. So when my turn ends, and Creature C provokes, and I successfully hit, I roll out my damage to deal Dice + Z + 1.5X + Amplified Power Attack = G damage total.
For simplicity purposes, if L < D < G (by a significant amount), would a DM not chastise me for trying to cheat and say that I did not specify me changing to wielding the Double Weapon as a single two-handed weapon at the end of my turn? In terms of the Crane Style and Two-Handed Weapons, would a DM not chastise me for trying to cheat and say that I did not specify that at the end of my turn I would change from wielding the 2h weapon to holding it in one hand, opening a hand to utilize the Crane Wing feature?
So let us backtrack back to where we finish my turn, and we take your method. You, as a GM, would be fine if Creature C provokes and I deal G points of damage, an amount that was calculated with variables that are questionable for a PC to utilize?
That's pretty much the predicament we're at here.
Now then, this is where we start to disagree. I would say that the character that finished TWF with that Double Weapon would be considered using two weapons for the purpose of feats stacking and usage, etc. You, as a GM, would call that a character that finishes with the TWF with a Double Weapon automatically returns to wielding it as a two-handed weapon?
No. What i'm saying is that the character is always just wielding a Double Weapon.
The Double Weapon isonly considered a one handed weapon and light weapon while using two-weapon fighting. That is the only time it counts like that. Once your Full-Attack is over your not using two-weapon fighting anymore and you don't have any of the penalties of it.
The special thing about Double Weapons is that you don't have to change anything(like drop your off hand weapon to two hand) since it's a single weapon. You literally change nothing from using two-weapon fighting on your turn to two handing it for an AoO.
In terms of the Crane Style and Two-Handed Weapons, would a DM not chastise me for trying to cheat and say that I did not specify that at the end of my turn I would change from wielding the 2h weapon to holding it in one hand, opening a hand to utilize the Crane Wing feature?
This scenario is different from a Double Weapon. Crane Style requires a free hand and so you would have to leave a free hand open to use it.
The Double Weapon requires no such thing. It's always wielded in two hands regardless of two-weapon fighting or using it two handed.
Kazaan, "attack penalties" is not the same thing as "penalties to attack rolls". "Attack penalties" is not a defined game term, so, unlike "penalties to attack rolls", it could also include (and does include, according to every stat blocks of characters wielding a double-weapon ever published by both WoTC and Paizo) the standard TWF STR modifiers to damage rolls.
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Look at it this way:
It's two handed weapon, so you get x1.5 strength to damage, but because of the double property, you have the choice of to two weapon fight with it, gaining the extra attack at a penalty. You get x1 strength to one attack, and x.5 to the other, essentially still getting the x1.5 to strength.
When you are not making a full attack, it's still a two handed weapon, wielded with two hands, and as thus, gaining x1.5 strength to damage.
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Look at it this way:
It's two handed weapon, so you get x1.5 strength to damage, but because of the double property, you have the choice of to two weapon fight with it, gaining the extra attack at a penalty. You get x1 strength to one attack, and x.5 to the other, essentially still getting the x1.5 to strength.
When you are not making a full attack, it's still a two handed weapon, wielded with two hands, and as thus, gaining x1.5 strength to damage.
Nice & concise. +1
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Look at it this way:
It's two handed weapon, so you get x1.5 strength to damage, but because of the double property, you have the choice of to two weapon fight with it, gaining the extra attack at a penalty. You get x1 strength to one attack, and x.5 to the other, essentially still getting the x1.5 to strength.
When you are not making a full attack, it's still a two handed weapon, wielded with two hands, and as thus, gaining x1.5 strength to damage.
+1
I figured out why the Crane Style thing doesn't work.
You specifically have to be fighting defensively with a hand free. Fighting defensively must be declared before you make an attack during your turn.
If at any point during the round you fill that empty hand with something it invalidates the criteria for the feat.
That being said, if you used Crane Riposte on an enemy and then another enemy triggered an AoO, you could choose to two-hand your weapon. You'd still take the penalties for fighting defensively, but you wouldn't care about losing the benefit of Crane Style.
So basically, when playing a character with Crane Style, a one-handed weapon and a decent strength, there's no reason not to two-hand your weapon when taking AoOs after you use Crane Wing/Crane Riposte.
I figured out why the Crane Style thing doesn't work.
You specifically have to be fighting defensively with a hand free. Fighting defensively must be declared before you make an attack during your turn.
If at any point during the round you fill that empty hand with something it invalidates the criteria for the feat.
That being said, if you used Crane Riposte on an enemy and then another enemy triggered an AoO, you could choose to two-hand your weapon. You'd still take the penalties for fighting defensively, but you wouldn't care about losing the benefit of Crane Style.
So basically, when playing a character with Crane Style, a one-handed weapon and a decent strength, there's no reason not to two-hand your weapon when taking AoOs after you use Crane Wing/Crane Riposte.
The Crane Riposte only functions after Crane Wing, at which point the criteria for Crane Wing would already be fulfilled. Let's go back to my Fighter with a Greatsword again.
Let's say I have the Vital Strike Feats and the full line of Crane Style feats (and the pre-reqs). I move to the target, perform a Fighting Defensively Vital Strike action, and at the end of my turn I put my Greatsword into one hand only; this leaves the other hand open/free, and thus the criteria for Crane Wing is accomplished.
The opponent makes a Vital Strike at me and would normally hit, but since I have an open hand, I choose to deflect this attack with my open hand, and upon deflecting the attack, the pre-requisites for Crane Wing are no longer needed (since the action is already done), and now we move on to Crane Riposte, which allows me to make an Attack of Opportunity at the target.
So here is where the questions begin: First off, since I have the Greatsword in one hand, can't I just two-hand the Greatsword while making my Attack of Opportunity, since you say you can two-hand a Longsword while it's within one hand? Secondly, would I receive an AOO against a creature that has Reach of 10 ft. or more (and I cannot reach them at my current position), or would I only be allowed to deflect the attack?
This is why switching the hand that is holding your weapon, or switching from two-handed stance to one-handed stance, or vice versa, should be a free action that can only be performed during your turn. No abuse, no headache.
This is why switching the hand that is holding your weapon, or switching from two-handed stance to one-handed stance, or vice versa, should be a free action that can only be performed during your turn. No abuse, no headache.
It's questioning the whole "Can you two-hand a weapon outside your turn" thing.
I still don't get why having a grip on two different sides of the Double Weapon still allows you 1.5X Strength (and I am not talking about TWF), when to get 1.5X Strength on a Greatsword, you have to have both hands at almost exactly the same spot (the hilt).
It just seems absolutely broken that a character with a Double Weapon can ignore practically all of the wielding mechanics like that. I mean come on, a character with a Double Weapon can use Crane Style while having it in one hand, yet he can two-hand it outside his turn. This is pretty much what you guys are saying, and this makes no sense for a Double Weapon property.
yet he can two-hand it outside his turn.
I can't speak for the others, but, like I said, in my games, if I'm GMing, I would house-rule that the character would have to specify that he his holding his double-weapon as a two-handed weapon before the end of his turn if he wants to get the x1.5 Str bonus on damage rolls while performing AoO, thus negating the benefits granted by Crane Style. I believe this is the most elegant way to handle this kind of things.
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Is changing your grip a free action, therefore only do-able on your own turn? Let's look at the 'Actions In Combat section under 'Free Actions'. Nope, not there.
Maybe it's under 'Move Action'? Nope, not there either.
OMG, it's not a Standard Action, is it? Er....nope!
Full-round? Swift? Surely, Immediate? Er...no, no and no.
Ah, here it is! Is was here the whole time!
CRB wrote:-
'Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.'
Makes sense when you think about it. Some things are done as part of another action, like jumping is not an action itself, it's done as part of a move. As long as you have a weapon in hand, and nothing else in either hand at the instant you attack with that weapon, then you choose how many hands you're using as part of that attack, and if you use two hands in that attack you can go back to just holding the thing in one hand between attacks. This can be done any time you attack whether it's your turn or not. It's not a free action. It's a non-action in and of itself, just part of whatever action you're using to attack.
I'm telling you this for for your own peace of mind. It doesn't actually come up in the case of double weapons, since there is no 'un-gripping' or 're-gripping' at all!
If you have a problem with Crane Style, then that's a problem with how Crane Style is written, not with how combat works in Pathfinder.
It's misleading to try to compare the situation with a 5-foot step just because both things don't burn any type of action. The 5-foot step is well defined in the rules, including when it can be taken. Pointing to the 5-foot step and saying 'it doesn't take any action type, therefore anything that doesn't take an action type must follow the rules for the 5-foot step' is such a huge fallacy I'm surprised that you can't see it yourself even in the midst of your zealotry.
You say that you can't use a double weapon as one-hand/light and two-hand at the same time. Correct, we all agree on that. If you say that it can't be done in the same full attack, I think we all agree on that. Most of us realise that when used in TWF then the Str bonus to damage works as normal for TWF, not as for a two-hander.
I used to think that the attack penalties for TWF lasted until the beginning of your next turn, thus penalising any AoO you make before then. I was wrong. The devs themselves state that the TWF penalties only apply during the full attack that gets the extra attack(s) granted by TWF, and do not work like the penalties imposed by using Power Attack or Rapid Shot, which do last until your next turn.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but I've read the entire thread with increasing incredulity. You have been wrong in so many ways in such a small corner of the rules that it astonished me. This doesn't mean you're a bad person, or thick, or anything. You've just got an idea in you're head and you've lost you're objectivity about it.
You're right about the damage, though. : )
@ Malachi
Well, then you understand my question that I proposed with Crane Style.
By RAW, is it legal that I have a two-handed weapon, use it to make a full attack option (or standard attack option) while fighting defensively, and hold it in one hand at the end of my turn, then when a creature swings and would normally hit me (and provoke the AOO upon deflection), would I then not be able to deflect that attack with my open hand, then when the AOO occurs, I can then re-grip my two-handed weapon and make the attack?
And here's why I ask the question. Here's the Base Crane Style quoting:
You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
The Base Style is an effect that amplifies your Fighting Defensively and Total Defense actions when you use them. A Style is maintained for as long as combat lasts, and can hold out indefinitely (or in other words, when the character changes/combines it, or dies).
There is nothing that says you must have an Open Hand Free to use the Base Style; meaning I can have a two-handed weapon and utilize the Crane Style, and not invalidate any requirements.
Here's the Crane Wing quoting:
Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
This is the part that states you must have an open hand free; it actually lists it as a benefit to fighting defensively or using total defense, and again, does not have any effect to the Base Style. However, if I am to deflect an attack, I must have the open hand free by the end of my turn, or if I provoke an AOO with movement, at the point in time before the AOO is provoked.
Here's the Crane Riposte quoting:
You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.
This part further strengthens your fighting defensively option (reducing it to -1); it then says that when you use Crane Wing to deflect the attack, (AKA, the point in time you are required to have an open hand free,) you are allowed an attack of opportunity after deflecting it. This means that in order to deflect the attack, the criteria for Crane Wing must be fulfilled; there is nothing said about maintaining the open hand after deflecting the attack for the attack of opportunity, meaning that you can use a weapon in two hands again, since according to the forum posters, changing how you wield a weapon consumes no action and can be done outside your turn(, which is proven thanks to your quoting and specifications).
With this interpretation, I should be able to use a two-handed weapon with the full line of Crane Style feats and not be hindered by its requirements.
Is changing your grip a free action, therefore only do-able on your own turn? Let's look at the 'Actions In Combat section under 'Free Actions'. Nope, not there.
Maybe it's under 'Move Action'? Nope, not there either.
OMG, it's not a Standard Action, is it? Er....nope!
Full-round? Swift? Surely, Immediate? Er...no, no and no.
Ah, here it is! Is was here the whole time!
CRB wrote:-
'Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.'
So... changing your grip is not listed under 'Not an Action' either, you only suggest it is because we can't find it anywhere else. Honestly, I don't feel strongly one way or another about this, and outside the 'Crane Style' and 'Deflect arrow' possible loopholes, I think this is mostly an inconsequential debate. However, if merely dropping a weapon is a free action, it's not unreasonable to state that changing your grip on a weapon should be a free action too.
On a related note, can you perform a melee attack with a spiked gauntlet as part of an AoO while holding a reach weapon in both hands?
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Darksol (I was going to shorten your name to DP but decided against it), as long as you have a hand free when you need to, then you can do what you've just described. Well done on finding a kick-ass combo! : )
If the writers of the Crane Style feat tree didn't intend you to do this, then they should have written it better. Until they nerf it, happy slaying!
Is changing your grip a free action, therefore only do-able on your own turn? Let's look at the 'Actions In Combat section under 'Free Actions'. Nope, not there.
Maybe it's under 'Move Action'? Nope, not there either.
OMG, it's not a Standard Action, is it? Er....nope!
Full-round? Swift? Surely, Immediate? Er...no, no and no.
Ah, here it is! Is was here the whole time!
CRB wrote:-
'Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.'
So... changing your grip is not listed under 'Not an Action' either, you only suggest it is because we can't find it anywhere else. Honestly, I don't feel strongly one way or another about this, and outside the 'Crane Style' and 'Deflect arrow' possible loopholes, I think this is mostly an inconsequential debate. However, if merely dropping a weapon is a free action, it's not unreasonable to state that changing your grip on a weapon should be a free action too.
On a related note, can you perform a melee attack with a spiked gauntlet as part of an AoO while holding a reach weapon in both hands?
Well, the thing about it being "Not an Action" is that it includes concepts and actions that should normally be included, such as the example it provided; a character using a bow and arrow wouldn't just shoot an arrow and not reach to prepare another arrow to launch, especially for those characters who use feats such as Snap Shot and the like, or other forms of ranged AOO's; otherwise such feats would not even work due to clunky, unexplained functions.
Malachi proposes that changing how you grip or wield a weapon would fall under such a category, and I would agree with his logic; it's not listed, and neither is the example that they provide, meaning that such a subject does not consume any action, and it also explicitly states that such "actions" (technically, lack thereof) are classified as automatically doing it in part with something else; that something else can very well be an AOO created from deflecting an attack from the Crane Wing feat.
Putting 2 and 2 together, you get the 4: Fighting Defensively Vital Strike/FAO, grip two-handed weapon in one hand. Target attempts to hit you, and normally would, but Crane Wing deflects the attack. Due to deflecting the attack, the target provokes an AOO from you, and upon taking the AOO, you can choose to grip the two-handed weapon normally and complete the results of the AOO action.
Though, the question you provided is still quite a good one. Personally, I would think that if a creature reaches into your square to attack you (which is the explanation of Reach) that you would get an AOO against it regardless of how far away it is (that is, if you deflect an attack, should it otherwise hit you).
However, such a ruling would be tricky when you consider reach weapons like a Whip, where a creature's natural reach is only due to the weapon and using its long striking distance to hit you, versus a creature with a polearm extending its physical body to strike you (leaving parts of its flesh and blood exposed). I would personally rule yes for Natural Reach (in that a creature performs an attack against you with a hand-to-hand melee weapon), but no for Unnatural reach (in that a creature uses a whip, which exposes no body parts for the PC to attack).
@ Malachi: DTP would've been interesting; but yes. I actually managed to figure out a way to utilize Crane Style with my Mobile Fighter, something I wanted to do for a long time to express the flavor of the character's skill in his elite defense, and once I propose the idea to my GM, the only way he'd be able to deny it is because of balance purposes (which I doubt he would do, since the Barbarian in our group has better tanking qualities than I do at the moment).