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For Weapon and Armor Proficiency, the magus is listed as "He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance."
and
"A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes."
note "magus spells" and "arcane spells received from other classes"
- so that pretty much says this ability is only for the spells you get from magus class levels (Simular to share spells with a farmilair / A. companion)
however both "spell combat" and "Spellstrike" reference "spell from the magus spell list" as the requirement for the spell... (but not "arcane spells received from magus")
- well most spells are on more then one class list (and some are different levels on those lists)
does this mean a Magus 2 / Druid 2 could use a druid spell slot to "spell combat" cast "Hydraulic Push" (both druid and magus 1) then "spell strike" it?
if not, do you know where it says that? (so I can mention it to my gaming group).
thanks in advance.
I'm against multiclassing , especially w/spellcasters, but as a general rule you cannot use a slot from by one class to use a spell granted by the other class, if this is what you are asking.
I think "spells from the magus spell list" already states that the magus class features can only be used in tandem with spells from the magus class list (don't forget a magus needs to take the appropriate arcana to use arcane spells from the wizard's list).
Cannot think of anything more.
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I'm against multiclassing , especially w/spellcasters, but as a general rule you cannot use a slot from by one class to use a spell granted by the other class, if this is what you are asking.
for this example he would be using his druid spell-casting ability to cast "Hydraulic Push"
- the catch is in the spell description:
Hydraulic Push
School evocation [water]; Level druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Bloodline aquatic 1
so this spell is on Magus,Druid,Sorcerer, and wizard spell lists.
I think "spells from the magus spell list" already states that the magus class features can only be used in tandem with spells from the magus class list
yup. we agree on this. but it doesn't say only spells granted by this class. -only the class spell list (very different)
this is important for other abilities - for example A druids animal companion's "share spells" ability only allow spells coming from a class that granted the animal companion - so a cleric 4 (animal domain)/ druid 4 (Animal companion) can share any spell they can cast targeting "touch" or "you" , while a druid 4 (Animal companion)/ wizard 2 (farmilair) can only share druid spells with the companion, and wizard spells with the farmiliar. -both targeting "touch" or "you".
(don't forget a magus needs to take the appropriate arcana to use arcane spells from the wizard's list).
I believe you are referring to the "Broad Study" arcana?
yes that would allow this no matter what, but I took it to mean you could Spell combat and Spell strike with spells that are not on the magus spell list at all (Bungle for example).
I forgot to check "Hydraulic push", hadn't think it was on both spell lists.
What would need to check now if it can be used by both class in the same PC, since one casts it as an arcane spell "magus" and the other as a divine "druid".
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So here's another question about multi-class Magi.
If you take several levels in Magus, then take a level in Wizard, can you use your Wizard's Arcane School abilities to modify the Magus' spells?
I mean, for example, you have access to Fireball on your Magus spells due to your level in the class. Can you then use your Wizard's Admixture ability on your Magus' fireball to make it an acidball?
I only ask because it doesn't specify whether or not it's referring to your Wizard's spells or just any spells with those elemental descriptors.
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As for the original post's question, I'm... A little confused. Are you asking if a multi-class Magus/Druid can Spell Combat and/or Spellstrike a spell using a Druid spell slot just because it's also on the Magus list?
If that's the question, the answer is no. You get spell slots from both classes and can only use the spell slots granted by Magus to use Spell Combat/Spellstrike with until you reach 6th level in Magus and take the Broad Study Arcana.
The whole "Magus Spells" distinction is referring to the spell slots granted by the Magus class, not just spells that also happen to be available to Magi.
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So here's another question about multi-class Magi.
If you take several levels in Magus, then take a level in Wizard, can you use your Wizard's Arcane School abilities to modify the Magus' spells?
I mean, for example, you have access to Fireball on your Magus spells due to your level in the class. Can you then use your Wizard's Admixture ability on your Magus' fireball to make it an acidball?
** spoiler omitted **
I only ask because it doesn't specify whether or not it's referring to your Wizard's spells or just any spells with those elemental descriptors.
this is actually in line with my question, and the answer for "can you use your Wizard's Arcane School abilities to modify the Magus' spells" is yes from what i have seen and practiced
- the trigger is "When you cast an evocation spell that does acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage" so you could also use this on the druid spell "flame blade" to make a "acid blade" (its normally a evocation spell that does fire damage)
there is no mention in "Admixture" the spell has to be granted from wizard class levels.
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As for the original post's question, I'm... A little confused. Are you asking if a multi-class Magus/Druid can Spell Combat and/or Spellstrike a spell using a Druid spell slot just because it's also on the Magus list?
yes.
another (slightly more complicated) example: magus 2/ sorc 2: casting shocking grasp.
if its from a Sorc, then this spell does not ignore arcane spell failure.
(armor prof. says "A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes")
but shocking grasp is both a arcane spell and on both class lists.
(and SpellCombat / Spellstrike ask about that specifically)
If that's the question, the answer is no. You get spell slots from both classes and can only use the spell slots granted by Magus to use Spell Combat/Spellstrike with until you reach 6th level in Magus and take the Broad Study Arcana.The whole "Magus Spells" distinction is referring to the spell slots granted by the Magus class, not just spells that also happen to be available to Magi.
this is the point I'm needing a reference or example on...
I've searched the core book and ultimate magic for a reference, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place.
I would totally agree if it said "Magus Spell" but it says "Magus spell list" .. I just need something to reference in the future if thats not the case
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Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
This Arcana wouldn't exist if you could just Spell Combat/Spellstrike using the spells out of the slots of your other class levels. Yes, the spells overlap on the spell lists in the fact that both lists contain the same spells. However, just because Shocking Grasp is on both lists, doesn't mean you can use your Wizard spell slots to power your Magus Spell Combat/Spellstrike without the Broad Study Arcana.
Just think about it, a Magus 1/Wizard 1 with an Int of 20 (Fairly standard in point buy, or if the player rolls well) would have the ability to Spell Combat with Shocking Grasp 6 times a day, which at that level is so ridiculously overpowered for what the game is designed for that it's pretty obvious that's not the intent. The maximum potential output, say, wielding a rapier, if you crit a lot could be 1d6+1 x2 (rapier+arcane pool)+ 1d6 x2 (Shocking Grasp)= 4d6+2... 6 times a day at level 2. For a Barbarian, that damage output isn't that out there, but for a caster it's unheard of. And, just consider the numbers as you level up and Shocking Grasp increases in the number of dice rolled.
Now, if you're in a home game and your GM rules you can do that and you go to town and utterly abuse the everloving crud out of that tiny little wording loophole, you're going to soon find yourself stealing the spotlight so much few people ever really get to shine as much once you get into the mid levels.
EDIT: Of course, there are always other broken builds available to other classes that can match that, but at the same time, the intent behind the rules as they've been laid out is not to allow a Magus to Spell Combat/Spellstrike with spell slots gained from another class before at least 7th level and with the Broad Study Arcana.
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can you use your Wizard's Arcane School abilities to modify the Magus' spells?
If they modify spellcasting, yes. If they specifically modify wizard spells or do something else, then no. See the General rule below.
Sorcerer: Do the bonuses granted from Bloodline Arcana apply to all of the spells cast by the sorcerer, or just those cast from the sorcerer's spell list? (page 72 of the Core Rulebook)
The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)
—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10
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Ugh, I'm tired and rambling a bit, but think about this for a minute.
If a Magus can somehow Spell Combat/Spellstrike with his other class's spellslots without Broad Study just because they're on the same list, why would he still suffer the spell failure chance with armor?
Because the way the Magus has learned to blend their magic with martial prowess has altered the way they cast those spells in a way that makes them unique, allowing them to Two-Weapon Fight (TWF) with a spell and not suffer spell failure issues from armor. Yes, they have the same spell name, the same effect, as that Wizard's spell of the same name, but that Wizard can't do the Spell Combat routine because that's not how their spell works. The Wizard can't wade into combat and TWF while wearing armor because that's not how they learned how to wield their spells.
Now, apply that in reverse. A Wizard teaches a Magus how to cast a spell their way (aka - using the Wizard Spell List). The Magus isn't going to be able to just go, "Oh, ok, now I can make it even better," without a lot of time and effort spent experimenting and practicing (aka - the time it takes to get to 7th level, also represented by the Broad Study Arcana).
EDIT: Aaaand Ninja'd while I was rambling.
So, because the Magus Spell Combat/Spellstrike abilities specifically call out the "Magus Spell List", the answer is that no, you can't cross class spells without the Broad Study Arcana; whereas with a Sorcerer's Bloodline Arcana or a Wizard's School Power where it doesn't specifically state which spell list it's using, it applies to any spell that meets the prerequisites for the use of that ability.
EDIT x2: And by "Magus Spell List" it means the list of spells Magi have in their Magus Spellbook, not their Wizard Spellbook (or other class's whateverbook).
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And by "Magus Spell List" it means the list of spells Magi have in their Magus Spellbook, not their Wizard Spellbook (or other class's whateverbook).
I think that's the intent, but not what is written.
This FAQ item is an example of Jason Bulmahn responding to a question using "spell list" then answering about spell slots of a specific class. This isn't airtight, as JB never actually writes "spell list" outside of the quoted question.
It would be awkward to add in "using a magus spell slot" to the abilities.
However, I can see the argument that since "Shocking Grasp" is on the magus spell list, it doesn't matter how you cast it, as long as you cast it.
"from the magus spell list" can't mean the same thing as magus spell slots, or the section on Spellbooks wouldn't make any sense: "A magus can learn spells from a wizard's spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus's spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal."
By RAW and plain English, I think any spell cast that's on the list counts. This might encourage an early dip in Sorcerer to get 3 or 4 more shocking grasps (if you didn't dump Cha) or more prestige class use, but I don't think that's such a big problem in terms of balance.
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EDIT x2: And by "Magus Spell List" it means the list of spells Magi have in their Magus Spellbook, not their Wizard Spellbook (or other class's whateverbook).Where did you get this idea? When referring to spells in the casters spellbook, they say 'in your spellbook.' 'The list' refers to just that, the list of spells it is possible for the caster to learn/cast.
It's 7am and I haven't slept all night so my words are failing me. What I meant to say is that by Magus Spell List it's the list of spells they gain access to, regardless of overlap with other classes.
Another Example:
Both Cleric and Witch get Cure Light Wounds. One is Divine, the other is Arcane. A Cleric/Witch wearing armor can't cast CLW from their Witch spell slots without spell failure issues because it's arcane, not the divine version. The spells are on both class lists, but they're not interchangeable.
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Ya know what? Gonna FAQ Grick's post above mine, and I recommend others do the same so maybe we can get an official ruling on the deal because I know that if I tried to use that cheese as explained in something like Pathfinder Society Organized Play just because the wording "Says so", I wouldn't be allowed to play that character as is because that's not the commonly accepted intent behind the wording.
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can you use your Wizard's Arcane School abilities to modify the Magus' spells?If they modify spellcasting, yes. If they specifically modify wizard spells or do something else, then no. See the General rule below.
Sorcerer: Do the bonuses granted from Bloodline Arcana apply to all of the spells cast by the sorcerer, or just those cast from the sorcerer's spell list? (page 72 of the Core Rulebook)
The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)
—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10
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thanks Grick! you just posted the reference I need. in the FAQ this is a instance where "Spell list" and "spell slot" are interchanged.
I tend to make sure any build I make works RAW, as RAI seems to turn into "rules as I want to interpret them" -which is fine for homegames but never for PFS. at least IMO.
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thanks Grick! you just posted the reference I need. in the FAQ this is a instance where "Spell list" and "spell slot" are interchanged.
I tend to make sure any build I make works RAW, as RAI seems to turn into "rules as I want to interpret them" -which is fine for homegames but never for PFS. at least IMO.
Sadly, the "Rules as I want to interpret them" is always going to vary from GM to GM, table to table, location to location.
When I first started playing PFS, one of the GM's at our FLGS was absolutely convinced that the social trait Adopted would allow him to pick a "Race Trait" from his adopted race. Now, that's exactly what the wording on the trait says, but he was thinking like the "+2 to any stat" that Humans get, so he could be a Half-Orc adopted by Humans and get +2 in two different stats just by taking Adopted because that's what the wording read as.
When I first started playing PFS, one of the GM's at our FLGS was absolutely convinced that the social trait Adopted would allow him to pick a "Race Trait" from his adopted race. Now, that's exactly what the wording on the trait says, but he was thinking like the "+2 to any stat" that Humans get, so he could be a Half-Orc adopted by Humans and get +2 in two different stats just by taking Adopted because that's what the wording read as.
Adopted grants a race trait, not a Racial Trait.
Some books (gnomes) refer to race traits as racial traits, but AFAIK adopted has never said racial trait instead of race trait.
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Adopted grants a race trait, not a Racial Trait.
Some books (gnomes) refer to race traits as racial traits, but AFAIK adopted has never said racial trait instead of race trait.
Right, but because it has been interchanged in a few locations some calling them Race traits, others calling them Racial traits, he was a tad confused.