Torturing to Get Information

[Mekkis]

Other than the fact that torturing people is considered evil, as per Mike Brock's ruling, this begs the question: why?

Either you're torturing (or threatening with torture) as part of an intimidate check, and if you pass it (expect a circumstance bonus), you'll get the information; you're torturing someone who genuinely doesn't know the information you seek, so you won't get the information; or you're already failed the intimidate check, and thus the +5 to DC should be applied (possibly mitigated by some form of circumstance bonus), and you'll likely fail again.

In the first case, it's unnecessary. In the second case, it's useless. In the third case, it's counteractive.

Either way, it's evil.

[Andrew R]

Well it has been said that you can assassinate someone for your faction so why not torture for it too?

[Player Someone.]

I am not certain, I would not like someone to do that to me, though, so.

[The black raven]

Andrew R wrote:

Well it has been said that you can assassinate someone for your faction so why not torture for it too?

Actually, what has been said is that you can act out of your alignment if necessary to fulfill your faction's mission.

Thus, even a LG paladin can assassinate someone if that is his mission.

So he can also torture someone if that is his mission.

That said, a faction that gives out missions saying 'you must torture this person" is likely not a good choice for a Paladin (or any Good character really).

[TwilightKnight]

The black raven wrote:

Thus, even a LG paladin can assassinate someone if that is his mission

Not true. Mike has stated that paladins adhere to a higher-level of morality than the "standard" PFS agent and while most characters can assassinate said target without fear of an alignment shift, a paladin would still lose their status and have to atone.

[LazarX]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

zean wrote:

Pathfinder Society is a world where people can maintain slaves and it's apparently not considered objectively Evil. I figure morality must just work differently in the world of Golarion.

No, the slavers just don't care about it being an evil act.

Slavery is not evil in Golarion, pretty sure.

If it's done by abduction, kidnapping, etc... it sure is. The only way it's not evil if it's done as a form of legal punishment or a volountary submission without duress. Prisoners of war are a grey area, depending on circumstance. Starting wars with the express intent on acquiring captives for slavery and sacrifice is definitely evil.

[Charles Evans 25]

On *this other thread* Michael Brock (the current, as of May 2013, Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator) recently wrote regarding torture & PFS:

”Michael Brock” wrote:

”BigNorseWolf” wrote:

”Michael Brock” wrote:

”Fromper” wrote:

Everyone seems to be ignoring the second question in the original post. Exactly where is the line between "intimidation" and "torture"?

Yes torture is evil.

Intimidation is when you threaten to do physical harm that would cause maiming, injury, etc...
Torture is when you deliberatly cause pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves.

So let me get this strait.

The pathfinders have some vague information that a place is involved in smuggling that might be related to a kidnapping. (as if skyreach weren't the number two source of smuggled artifacts in the inner sea) A heavily armed and armored swat team of pathfinders kick in the door and find mook thug number 2, who oddly enough at seeing people apparently about to kill him, picks up a knife to defend himself.
This person can be shot with an arrow, decapitated with a sword , turned into a marmoset, have his blood boiled within his own veins, be bathed in acid, or even set on fire and be left to burn to death alive... and THEN have his body reanimated into an unholy mockery of life that exists to satiate an inexorable hunger for the tender flesh of the living and that’s not an evil act.
But if you take someone you know is guilty of the most heinous crimes, who deserves to be decapitated on the spot, and instead smack him around a little for information then suddenly you've crossed the line...

We can list all kinds of situations. That isn't what this topic is about. If you want to discuss blood boiling, bathing in acid, setting on fire or many other acts, start your own thread instead of derailing this one.

Let me simplify. Torture is evil. I'm not arguing about it, I'm not debating it.
Torture is evil, plain and simple.

And:

”Michael Brock” wrote:

”Fromper” wrote:

And again, I think we all agree that torture is evil. The question is "What is torture?"

How many movies, TV shows, comic books, etc have featured "heroes" who are willing to punch bad guys during an interrogation? Is that torture? Is it evil? Batman routinely hangs people upside down over a ledge. He has a personal code that won't let him ever actually let go and let them die, but the fact that the criminals don't know that makes it effective.
In the non-hypothetical scenario that prompted me to start this thread, our group beat up a bunch of bad guys, took one of them alive, tied him up, tapped him with a wand of CLW to wake him from negative HPs, then started asking questions. The captive was clearly evil, and we needed information to prevent more evil activity. None of the PCs in the room had a good alignment, as far as I know, so the question of a paladin or something objecting wasn't an issue.
We're describing how we're intimidating him before rolling the intimidate check and assists, and one of the players describes his character punching the guy while asking him a question. Having seen this sort of thing more times than I can count in PFS sessions, I didn't consider that even remotely abnormal, and I was actually really surprised when the GM objected and said he couldn't do that because it's evil. He was going to stop, roll the intimidate check, and hope for the best without hitting the guy a second time, so that's as far as it ever would have gone.
So is a single slap or punch to an evil captive while trying to prevent more death and destruction of innocent people considered evil? What about shoving someone against a wall? Is the line drawn at any physical contact?

Torture is when you deliberatly cause excessive pain and suffering to an individual and they are unable to defend themselves. It also includes inflicting such pain for the purposes of obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession or needlessly and excessively punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed (even if you can heal the damage afterwards).

And (regarding ‘excessive’):

”Michael Brock” wrote:

I do, in fact, intend to leave it open to GM interpretation. How many times do posters here request we give GMs more authority at the table to adjudicate rules and situations?

Slapping a bound man probably does not cause excessive pain. Filleting his fingers probably does. This is one of those situations where I can not provide an absolute definition for every situation that may occur so I leave it to the GMs to make the best interpretation they possibly can.
Torture is evil. I think most people out there understand when someone is being tortured and someone isn't. GMs use your best judgement when it happens at a table.

I hope that assists those who've missed the other thread...

[David Bowles]

Seriously? I play this game to be heroic, not to be some torturer thug.

[Vamptastic]

David Bowles wrote:

Seriously? I play this game to be heroic,

Me too. That's why I play a torturer thug. :P

But seriously. Is it evil when Batman throws mooks through windows and hangs them off buildings to get the information he wants?

I'd count Intimidate as psychological torture.

[LazarX]

Vamptastic wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

Seriously? I play this game to be heroic,

Me too. That's why I play a torturer thug. :P

But seriously. Is it evil when Batman throws mooks through windows and hangs them off buildings to get the information he wants?

I'd count Intimidate as psychological torture.

There ARE reasons why Batman spends a good deal of time running away from cops, including honest ones. Many of the things he does to criminals are things he'd take someone else in for doing the same.

[draykhar]

LazarX said wrote:

There ARE reasons why Batman spends a good deal of time running away from cops, including honest ones. Many of the things he does to criminals are things he'd take someone else in for doing the same.

But that's just it, cops are chasing him because he's breaking the LAW, not necessarily because they think he's evil.

If some of the things Batman does are against the law (and for the love of all that tastes good when deep fried, there is quite a bit that falls under that category), it doesn't mean they're evil actions.

[Silbeg]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

KestlerGunner wrote:

Iomedae is probably hoping that at some point your hero stops to wonder if the attacker is dominated/charmed/possessed/been tricked/mentally ill/under the effects of a rage spell/antagonise feat/illusion effect/or just acting.

Detect magic and a really nice spellcraft check usually serve nicely. And I *really* don't think that PFS will have NPCs spending all that time and energy to create disposable mooks out of nice people. Its not the style of the campaign, and is really designed to screw people over.

Actually, I would say that this would be a perfect use of Sense Motive.

I would say that if someone is acting out of a compulsion, then there should be a chance to detect their modified actions. Might not be the easiest thing, but I would probably allow a sense motive check where the DC is the same as the spell's save DC. If the person were well known by the sensor, then I would probably give a decent bonus (as high as +5, perhaps).

[BigNorseWolf]

David Bowles wrote:

Seriously? I play this game to be heroic, not to be some torturer thug.

Having the option there and choosing to have your character refuse it makes the diamond shine just a little brighter in the rough.

[The black raven]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

zean wrote:

Pathfinder Society is a world where people can maintain slaves and it's apparently not considered objectively Evil. I figure morality must just work differently in the world of Golarion.

No, the slavers just don't care about it being an evil act.

Slavery is not evil in Golarion, pretty sure.

From the Bestiary entry on Griffon : "buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities"

So it seems that most good deities take a dim view of slavery.

[David Bowles]

In homebrews, I love tricking information out of NPCs, such as using magic to disguise the party face as his boss or something. Torture is just.... lame.

[David Bowles]

The black raven wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

zean wrote:

Pathfinder Society is a world where people can maintain slaves and it's apparently not considered objectively Evil. I figure morality must just work differently in the world of Golarion.

No, the slavers just don't care about it being an evil act.

Slavery is not evil in Golarion, pretty sure.

From the Bestiary entry on Griffon : "buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities"

So it seems that most good deities take a dim view of slavery.

Tell that to my paladin of Torag as he's smiting their slaver asses. Even if slavery is "legal" in a nation, to me, that's protection from the divine wrath of Torag.

[Funky Badger]

Jiggy wrote:

Fun aside: I've played my LG cleric exactly twice. Both times, he's straight-up executed someone. Go figure, eh?

Bet you didn't enjoy it, though. ;-)

Only IC execution I've seen was by a chaotic good fighter. Perfectly IC as well, and nicely RPed by the group.

(My Asmodean cleric was all for taking him back to the boss, oh well)

[BigNorseWolf]

David Bowles wrote:

In homebrews, I love tricking information out of NPCs, such as using magic to disguise the party face as his boss or something. Torture is just.... lame.

There's no reason you can't do this in PFS too, provided you have a decent DM.

[Kezzie Redlioness]

But, what about the 1st level spell 'Interrogation' from Ultimate Magic and the PFS ruling that using Evil descriptor spells in name of your faction mission for the Society won't count as an alignment no-no?

That is a spell that IS allowed with what seems like no repercussions for using them if it is in the spirit/pursuit of achieving the goals of the adventure.

If I am wrong, please tell me? I can remember several scenarios in which having that spell would have expedited the info gathering process and spared the party a lot of lost Hp later.

Sometimes, torture is a necessary evil.

[Silbeg]

Kezzie Redlioness wrote:

But, what about the 1st level spell 'Interrogation' from Ultimate Magic and the PFS ruling that using Evil descriptor spells in name of your faction mission for the Society won't count as an alignment no-no?

Using an evil descriptor spell is not in and of itself an evil act. Using the spell to perform an evil act is Evil.

Example, you can use Infernal Evil without turning evil (though you'll feel evil while it is running). This is not an evil act.

Willingly using the Interrogation spell to cause physical harm to a person would fall in the lines of torture, and would be evil. This is no different than "interrogating" with Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, or smacking someone upside the head with a Warhammer. All are evil acts.

Persuasive Goad is not an Evil spell, mostly because it does non-lethal damage. This would be more of a GM's call... but most would probably allow it since it is more similar than smacking someone with the back of your hand, or the like. A matter of scale, mostly.

Kezzie Redlioness wrote:

Sometimes, torture is a necessary evil.

A "necessary evil" is still evil.

[Uktabi]

LazarX wrote:

Vamptastic wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

Seriously? I play this game to be heroic,

Me too. That's why I play a torturer thug. :P

But seriously. Is it evil when Batman throws mooks through windows and hangs them off buildings to get the information he wants?

I'd count Intimidate as psychological torture.

There ARE reasons why Batman spends a good deal of time running away from cops, including honest ones. Many of the things he does to criminals are things he'd take someone else in for doing the same.

Forget Batman, he is easy to ascribe as a whatever-it-takes kinda hero. But in Finding Nemo Dorey holds a crab up to a horde of gulls in order to get the crab to talk, because the crab is being a jerk. This is the same thing Batman is doing but I don't think anyone has ever thought "man that Dorey is an evil b*#$%."

Silbeg wrote:

Willingly using the Interrogation spell to cause physical harm to a person would fall in the lines of torture, and would be evil. This is no different than "interrogating" with Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, or smacking someone upside the head with a Warhammer. All are evil acts.

Persuasive Goad is not an Evil spell, mostly because it does non-lethal damage. This would be more of a GM's call... but most would probably allow it since it is more similar than smacking someone with the back of your hand, or the like. A matter of scale, mostly.

So what about the spell confess? it deals damage if you don't answer truthfully, so is casting this spell evil? Or is it only evil if they don't answer you? This spell makes taking the damage the choice of the target and not subjective in the eyes of the interrogator. Does that change whether it is torture? And what about if you cast it while still in combat and hope you don't answer, i mean its not a bad combat spell as far as inquisitor spells go.