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So I'd like to build a myrmidon for this new game I'm joining. I know the term might be a little ambiguous, but the myrmidon I'm referring to is the class from the Fire Emblem games that involves a warrior with an incredibly high critical-hit ratio.
So I decided to build a Weapon Master Fighter (falchion). Primary stats Strength and Con, secondary Dex.
Race is Dual Talent human (+2 Str/Con).
The scores at level 1 (20 PB) are:
Str 18 (10 points)
Dex 14 (5 Points)
Con 14 (2 Points)
Int 12 (2 Points)
Wis 12 (2 Points)
Cha 9 (-1 Point)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Power Attack.
My later feats are going to include the Greater Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization line, as well as Improved Critical, until I get to level 11 and can start taking critical feats. Then I'm going to load up on as many as I can to give myself plenty of options. Blinding, Staggering, Stunning and Dazing Critical all sound good.
What do you guys think? Any suggestions for a crit-focused fighter build?
Starting level is 1. My other two party members are a summoner and a rogue/shadowdancer.
I would use the Wakizashi for the huge crit range.
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I would use the Wakizashi for the huge crit range.
The falchion also has an 18-20/x2 crit range, but has more base damage, is a two-handed weapon, and doesn't require Exotic Weapon Proficiency. But I appreciate your help nonetheless. I might get a wakizashi as a backup weapon and just use it without proficiency.
You could twf the wakizashi and considering it is light have a huge chance to crit if you can expand it. With two attacks you have 50% of critting each round.
I was tempted to make a synthesist with multiple arms that did this, but they banned it for PFS.
You could twf the wakizashi and considering it is light have a huge chance to crit if you can expand it. With two attacks you have 50% of critting each round.
I was tempted to make a synthesist with multiple arms that did this, but they banned it for PFS.
That's not really accurate for the myrmidon/swordmaster character NeoSeraphi is going for.
As to the myrmidon, I would probably go for the duelist prc for the unarmoured swordsman type, and just say your rapier is actually a saber or Jian. But maybe that is too defensive, and is really a whole other build.
I think stats could use some tinkering if it is not too late for that.
I think you could drop charisma even lower, bring wis and int down to ten (or raise int to 13 for the combat expertise line of feats). then you could spend your extra points on dex.
Just my two cents.
Probably not worth the investment feat-wise but if you wanted to go dexier you could go with an elven curve blade and weapon finesse. Though you'd still need some strength for damage, I suppose, since Power Attack doesn't work miracles (Can you even use it for finessed attacks?).
IN Fire Emblem, Myrmidons were high DEX, low STR characters who used scimitars.
So... I would go with a high DEX, Dervish Dance build.
Your stated high STR, falchion two handed build is more optimal, but doesn't really resemble a Myrmidon, mechanically.
Go with light armor and some kind of sword, and you are set, in any case.
I'm with hector on this one; they were a more dex/crit-based class. DD'ing with a keen weapon (or crit feats) seems more the way to go for that feel.
Alternately you can look into the Aldori Swordlord prestige class; it has the equivalent of dervish dance for the aldori dueling sword (which is effectively a longsword). It's pretty dueling-focused, though.
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Let's see...okay then.
So here are my new ability scores:
Str 10 (0 Points)
Dex 18 (10 Points)
Con 14 (5 Points)
Int 13 (3 Points)
Wis 12 (2 Points)
Cha 10 (0 Points)
Normal human this time, with the bonus feat spent on Weapon Finesse.
1st level- Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
2nd level- Dervish Dance
3rd level- Combat Expertise, Weapon Training 1
4th level- Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
5th level- Improved Trip
6th level- Greater Trip
7th level- Fury's Fall, Weapon Training 2
8th level- Improved Critical (Scimitar)
9th level- Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
10th level- Critical Focus
11th level- Bleeding Critical, Weapon Training 3
12th level- Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Change Dodge to Penetrating Strike
13th level- Staggering Critical
14th level- Critical Mastery
15th level- Blinding Critical, Weapon Training 4
16th level- Tiring Critical
17th level- Stunning Critical
18th level- Exhausting Critical
19th level- Greater Penetrating Strike, Weapon Training 5
20th level- Tripping Strike
If you are ok with magic you should try a Kensai,gets really strong wears no Armor and is very Crit Focused.
But Anyway get Powerattack and go Duelist after Level 6 ,that gets you better damage.
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If you are ok with magic you should try a Kensai,gets really strong wears no Armor and is very Crit Focused.
But Anyway get Powerattack and go Duelist after Level 6 ,that gets you better damage.
I'm not okay with the kensai. I'm in a three-person party starting at level 1, and the other two players are a summoner and a rogue. If I don't have d10 hit dice and 19 AC at level 1, we're going to die, lack of healer aside.
The better damage is nice as a duelist, but that's about all it gives me, whereas staying fighter gives me Penetrating Strike and Critical Mastery, as well as twice as many critical feats as I could get as a duelist. With the improved Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Specialization, I would guess that it almost evens out with the duelist in terms of damage. (10th level duelist gets +10 damage per hit, whereas Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training at 11th, 15th, and 19th will get me +5 damage. Lose 5 damage, get 5 feats. I'm willing to make that trade).
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You might consider the lore warden archetype for this, since you seen to want to trip and you're unlikely to get much use out of armour training.The Weapon Master archetype conflicts with the Lore Warden archetype, and I'd much rather be a Weapon Master to help make up for my low DPR.
Weaponmaster is only a slight increase in DPR really. It speeds up your acquisition of weapon training, but I like that archetype more for dipping only three levels. There's also the fact that regular weapon training can apply its second increment to bows; for a high-dexterity fighter, this can be a great advantage to you even without any feat investment.
The extra skills, free Combat Expertise, and bonus on all combat manoeuvres is pretty cool too.
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Weaponmaster is only a slight increase in DPR really. It speeds up your acquisition of weapon training, but I like that archetype more for dipping only three levels. There's also the fact that regular weapon training can apply its second increment to bows; for a high-dexterity fighter, this can be a great advantage to you even without any feat investment.The extra skills, free Combat Expertise, and bonus on all combat manoeuvres is pretty cool too.
Weapon Master helps you avoid Sunder (really annoying) and Disarm (more likely for the DM to do because of how annoying Sunder is).
Reliable Strike is great for when you really needed a hit and you rolled a 1.
But of course, Deadly Critical and Critical Specialist are what I'm really after. Imagine at level 13 when I crit someone with my +3 frost burst scimitar and use Deadly Critical. 3d6+1d6 cold +2d10 cold +9 (Weapon Training) +18 (Dex) +9 (enhancement) is 4d6+2d10+36 damage on a roll of a 15-20. That is exactly what I'm looking for, doubly so because all crits in Fire Emblem are x3 crits.
Critical Specialist is also great. Instead of being stuck at a static Fort DC of 30 at level 20, I get 34. Since Fort saves are so high, I'll take every DC boost I can get.
And again, I can't do ranged because there's no one else in my party who can take up the melee role. Kind of useless to have a secondary role if you can never safely abandon your primary role. I'll carry a longbow for when I encounter flying enemies, but without the right feats for it, I wouldn't be doing much damage anyway, Weapon Training doesn't help much with that. You can't be a good archer unless you're a dedicated archer.
But you should try and increase your attackdamage somehow ,without Powerattack and Duelist levels you are only looking at about 17,5 average Damage per hit at level 10 ,even on a crit thats only 35. Thats not very much especially as a Fighter .A Strenght based fighter with a Falchion would do your Crit damage on an average Hit and have the same Crit Range as you.
Ah! I can't believe I forgot about Pirahna Strike! I think I'll drop Dodge for Pirahna Strike instead. That should help my DPR.
Piranha Strike only works with light Weapons ,so you can´t combine it with Dervish Dance.
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Piranha Strike only works with light Weapons ,so you can´t combine it with Dervish Dance.
Ah, right. Darn. Well, I can't exactly spare the points to up my Strength to 13 for Power Attack. I suppose I could drop my Wisdom to 9...
Okay, Wis 9, Str 13, Power Attack instead of Dodge. That will help increase my output. +12 damage per attack at +20 BAB.
Are you sure you need/are going to use all of those critical feats? If there are any you're unsure of, you might be able to free up some space. Also there's Critical Versatility if you wanted to try different things. Also, do you need Charisma? either dumping that straight out or dividing the drop between the two might be better than losing that much wisdom.
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Are you sure you need/are going to use all of those critical feats? If there are any you're unsure of, you might be able to free up some space. Also there's Critical Versatility if you wanted to try different things. Also, do you need Charisma? either dumping that straight out or dividing the drop between the two might be better than losing that much wisdom.
My character is a traveling gypsy. Taking a 10 in Charisma is as low as I can spare and still have the character make sense. I'm already upset enough that my character's Perform checks are going to be as low as they are.
As for the critical feats, well, I need Tiring for Exhausting (-6 Str/Dex and can't charge is too good), I need Staggering for Stunning (self-explanatory), I need Bleeding because I want Critical Mastery at 14th and the only other choice at level 11 is Sickening, and I need Blinding because it makes the rogue's job much much easier.
I suppose that makes sense. I hate playing low-charisma characters without a specific reason too, honestly, but having a below-par will save can be a big pain too, is why I was asking.
If you are ok with magic you should try a Kensai,gets really strong wears no Armor and is very Crit Focused.
But Anyway get Powerattack and go Duelist after Level 6 ,that gets you better damage.
I'm not okay with the kensai. I'm in a three-person party starting at level 1, and the other two players are a summoner and a rogue. If I don't have d10 hit dice and 19 AC at level 1, we're going to die, lack of healer aside.
The better damage is nice as a duelist, but that's about all it gives me, whereas staying fighter gives me Penetrating Strike and Critical Mastery, as well as twice as many critical feats as I could get as a duelist. With the improved Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Specialization, I would guess that it almost evens out with the duelist in terms of damage. (10th level duelist gets +10 damage per hit, whereas Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training at 11th, 15th, and 19th will get me +5 damage. Lose 5 damage, get 5 feats. I'm willing to make that trade).
That's not taking into account all the other stuff you're getting with duelist though. You are missing out on the duelist's astronomical AC, better skills, higher initiative, improved reflex saves and greater mobility. I'm probably missing something too.
Damage is not all that duelist gives you, and that's not why you go duelist anyway.
I wonder how your myrmidons would fair against my own myrmidons.
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I wonder how your myrmidons would fair against my own myrmidons.
...Would you mind at all if I stole this for my homegame?
Not at all, Mergy. That's why I posted it, so other GMs can terrori--er, challenge their players.
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That's not taking into account all the other stuff you're getting with duelist though. You are missing out on the duelist's astronomical AC, better skills, higher initiative, improved reflex saves and greater mobility. I'm probably missing something too.
Damage is not all that duelist gives you, and that's not why you go duelist anyway.
Astronomical AC? I have 13 Int. That's a +1 modifier. So I get +1 AC from being a duelist.
At level 7 (which is my 13th character level) I get an additional +2 AC when I fight defensively...but that doesn't help me crit.
I mean, myrmidons are not any faster (movement-wise) or more dodgey than any other class in FE. They just have high accuracy and high critical hits. And duelist doesn't help with either of these. In fact, the duelist's best abilities (Parry and Elaborate Defense) require you to take a penalty to your attack rolls. The duelist class is certainly powerful for a defensive character, but I'm not seeking to be a tank here. I just want to deliver powerful criticals as often as possible.
I suppose that makes sense. I hate playing low-charisma characters without a specific reason too, honestly, but having a below-par will save can be a big pain too, is why I was asking.
Oh I agree, but as a fighter I wasn't really expecting to make any Will saves anyway. A net -2 penalty will hurt that, but it's not as relevant as getting Power Attack and increasing my DPR every round, as opposed to the 1 Will save I might be required to make per day.
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It's too bad Perfect Strike only works with certain monk weapons-- it's really the only other feat I can think of that supports the idea of increasing your crit chance.
Somebody once told me that the widest crit range you could ever get was 12-20, but if he told me how I forgot it. Is there any crit-range widening effect that stacks with keen/imp. crit? Are there even any at all besides those two?
When you said that crits are all x3 in Fire Emblem, I was reminded of the falcata. It only crits on a 19-20, but the x3 multiplier makes it quite good for crit builds and DPR in general.
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Unfortunately, you can't finesse with a falcata, so the OP would have to go back to a strength build.
On the other hand, strength builds make for much higher DPR, so I would wholeheartedly endorse that option.
My DM was upset when I showed him the first build and he saw I was dealing 2d4+9 per attack at level 1. Now that I'm down to 1d6+3, he's much happier.
I mean, if I was dealing so much damage normally, it wouldn't be as big a deal when I did crit, right? If I was going to kill them on a hit either way, I think it would take down some of the hype when I finally rolled that natural 15.
As the rest of the group stated before, a Str-based myrmidon isn't really true to the archetype, so I'll just stick with my Dervish Dancer.
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The Dervish Dancer probably is the better build, I just couldn't help but mention the falcata for the sake of completeness.
My real question is, how dedicated are you to Combat Expertise and the Trip feats? Tripping is fine, but it doesn't seem to fit with your image of a crit-based fighter. You also mentioned making Perform checks-- are you going to be doing gladitorial combat or something similar?
If so, I would definitely advise you to replace the CE line with some Performance Combat feats. If not, I'd still axe the CE line, if only to alleviate your need for 13 INT-- you can then get your WIS/CHA back up to something you feel more comfortable with.
Plus, that frees up some feat slots for Combat Reflexes. With your DEX, you'd get plenty more chances to crit!
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The Dervish Dancer probably is the better build, I just couldn't help but mention the falcata for the sake of completeness.
My real question is, how dedicated are you to Combat Expertise and the Trip feats? Tripping is fine, but it doesn't seem to fit with your image of a crit-based fighter. You also mentioned making Perform checks-- are you going to be doing gladitorial combat or something similar?
If so, I would definitely advise you to replace the CE line with some Performance Combat feats. If not, I'd still axe the CE line, if only to alleviate your need for 13 INT-- you can then get your WIS/CHA back up to something you feel more comfortable with.
Plus, that frees up some feat slots for Combat Reflexes. With your DEX, you'd get plenty more chances to crit!
I'm not going to be doing gladitorial combat, no. My character is a gypsy. He likes to sing and dance, so I put ranks in it. How high the check actually is doesn't really matter, but I would like to keep the bonus above 0.
The Tripping is just an alternative to when I need something to hurt people. I won't have any other options besides move+attack until level 11 when I get my first critical feat. (And even then, it's only going to be move+attack and hope you crit). Tripping just gives me something else to do when attacking won't help, like against DR enemies or when I want to take someone down without killing them.
Combat Reflexes won't give me many more chances to crit by itself. I don't have a reach weapon. How often do creatures actually provoke attacks of opportunity from you if you don't have a reach weapon? In my experience, almost never unless you have a way of forcing them to do it, like Greater Trip.
That's not taking into account all the other stuff you're getting with duelist though. You are missing out on the duelist's astronomical AC, better skills, higher initiative, improved reflex saves and greater mobility. I'm probably missing something too.
Damage is not all that duelist gives you, and that's not why you go duelist anyway.
Astronomical AC? I have 13 Int. That's a +1 modifier. So I get +1 AC from being a duelist.
At level 7 (which is my 13th character level) I get an additional +2 AC when I fight defensively...but that doesn't help me crit.
I mean, myrmidons are not any faster (movement-wise) or more dodgey than any other class in FE. They just have high accuracy and high critical hits. And duelist doesn't help with either of these. In fact, the duelist's best abilities (Parry and Elaborate Defense) require you to take a penalty to your attack rolls. The duelist class is certainly powerful for a defensive character, but I'm not seeking to be a tank here. I just want to deliver powerful criticals as often as possible.
I suppose that makes sense. I hate playing low-charisma characters without a specific reason too, honestly, but having a below-par will save can be a big pain too, is why I was asking.Oh I agree, but as a fighter I wasn't really expecting to make any Will saves anyway. A net -2 penalty will hurt that, but it's not as relevant as getting Power Attack and increasing my DPR every round, as opposed to the 1 Will save I might be required to make per day.
I didn't realize that elaborate defense had been changed since 3.5, it used to be +1 AC per level in addition to the regular benefit. That being said, I still think that the duelist offers greater defense and a lot of neat tricks (like acrobatic charge for example) at little to no reduction in DPR if you're going to be wearing light armour and wielding a finesse weapon anyway.
I disagree that Myrmidons are not a "dodgy" class in fire emblem. I distinctly remember only the Thief/Assassin having a higher dodge chance than the Myrmidon/Swordmaster.
All this fire emblem talk has got me wondering how to build a FE Shaman/Druid character in pathfinder now. ^_^
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Oi, I know this is way behind and I don't mean to revive a dead horse, I just don't feel like making a new thread.
I was thinking, however, what about a finesse rogue and building Vital strike and feint? Myrmidons were always one of the higher damage dealers. With Dex being your focus stat and the Str and Cha. You'd have a pretty good dodge with a high damage output.
Necromancy aside, that wouldn't work. Myrmidons were known for having extremely high Skill (which contributes to both accuracy and critical strike chance in Fire Emblem). Rogues are notorious for being one of the least accurate martial classes in the game. You'd miss way too often to be a real myrmidon, even if you succeed your feint there are plenty of creatures with absurd levels of natural armor and magical protections. Better to have full BAB and weapon training. I'd rather be lucky with my crits than lucky to hit at all.