| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The entry for Rake is the general rules for using Rake. Pounce is a more specific exception to the general rules for Rake thus the Pounce ability trumps the general rule. When using Pounce a creature with Rake gets to use the Rake, at all other times the normal rules for Rake apply.
And yes Tigers are OP (relative to other animals) due to Pounce mainly.
The rake rule says "typically when it grapples". The pounce rule adds another situation where you can use rake. There's no contradiction.
It wouldn't be able to do 74 damage each round.
Pounce can only be used on a charge attack. If the tiger is adjacent to a foe, it will have to get away before it can pounce again.
So in a normal scenario, it will only be able to use pounce on the first turn of combat.
|
I cant argue with your perfect interpretation of the rules, It does make me question the rules tho as this would mean a CR4 tiger could do 74 damage per turn. saying that I'm a young DM and might just not know better
Like I said earlier and in the other thread...just hope he doesn't find Raptors and put them in Rhino Hide Armor. 5 attacks at the end of a charge that all result in an extra 2d6 damage per attack that hits. Truth be told...after like level 4-5 when things start having damage reduction you need a way to boost damage and make it reasonable because natural attacks SUUUUUUUCK at overcoming DR (aka you really can't do it).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It wouldn't be able to do 74 damage each round.
Pounce can only be used on a charge attack. If the tiger is adjacent to a foe, it will have to get away before it can pounce again.
So in a normal scenario, it will only be able to use pounce on the first turn of combat.
Tigers can pounce, initiate a grapple using their grab special ability, and then full attack with all of their natural weapons (including their rake!) the very next round. They can deal the same damage, consistently, every round.
the tiger also has a ridiculously low AC and Will save, and a level 1 druid or level 4 ranger can drop Charm bomb on him if the nature gods are (very) kind. if they aren't, glitterdust is 70% likely to blind him from a decently built arcane type. touch AC 11 is also pretty doable for ray of enfeeblement to make Hobbes a little less scary. Entangle, Grease and Stone Call all dish out impeded movement and hamper (if not flat out prevent) charge/pounce attacks.
the exact thing that makes the tiger a tough CR 4 fight also makes him a wicked Summon Monster/Nature's Ally X choice..... summon him 40' away from the fight and get 5 attacks on your bad guy of choice!
true but at level 4 most other creatures will just die to 74 damage leaving him free to pounce every turn, good point tho
sorry, didn't see this. Hobbes also has +11 to stealth, and with 40' movement and -1 to opposed perception checks for every 10', he effectively has +19 stealth at max charge range with +11/+12/+12/+12/+12 to hit. At level 4 those should only be auto-hit numbers against the party Robes, and if your DM is meta-murdering player characters then the game has bigger issues...
Doing some thread necro again...
Reading the postings about rake and pounce (not just this thread) I think I'm beginning to understand most of it but...:
The big cat animal companion has the following entry: Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6)
Is it incidential that the claws and rake deal the same damage? Or in other words, if I increase the claw damage, does the rake damage increase, too?
What do I have to roll if I pounce and want torake? The claw attack roll? Or is it automatic damage, that I deal without rolling?
And last but not least, a little off topic: Normally bite and claws are both primary natural attacks. If that is the case, what does the big cat gain from having multiattack?
stuff
To my understanding, the 2 rake attacks are rolled whenever you make the grapple check after succeeding in the initial hit/grab in th eprevious round. Much like how Constrict is a freebie damage adder for the snake types, when a cat(or raptor, etc) maintains the grab the rake's are activated and rolled. I never saw the rules as supporting a "i simply full attack now and get two extra rake attacks on top of it". Now that said the pounce question had already been answered above, and i also agree with everyone that the 5 attacks for the cat is the correct way when charge/pouncing.
Flavor-wise, the Rake attacks a Tiger gets should hypothetically be TALONS and not CLAWS, since Paizo has stated the difference between them is arms/legs or forelegs/rearlegs, and rear legs are the only limbs a Tiger has left. Alternatively, Rake could be the exact same Claws as on the fore limbs (used a 2nd time), but that has implications if those have special abilities: such as Grab or Poison, etc... given the implications, and since that's not stated directly, I would rule the Rake attacks ARE on the rear-limbs and are distinct 'weapons'. But even though rearlegs NORMALLY are associated with talons and not claws, the ability says you are gaining claws, so that's what you gain. The only mechanical difference between claws/talons is that claws also count as bludgeoning but talons don't (only slashing).
Tigers DON'T gain anything from having multiattack, unless they are awakened and start making iterative attacks and using their natural attacks 'on top' as secondary weapons. Multiattack is most useful for creatures with secondary attacks.
@Rathendar: I decided to put that issue in it's own thread so it could be FAQ'd more easily. I understand your position, but it doesn't seem to have the RAW backing (Constrict is linked to a Grapple check for example, while Rake isn't). Please hit FAQ on that thread, and weigh in with your views.
Thanks so far.
according to what you said it is not really clear whether the rake damage goes up, too when you get improved natural attack (claws). Right?
oh, i think per RAW it should clearly go up, it's stated that it is claws.
that just happens to be against the normal association, but if an ability says so, that can over-ride the norm.
your improved natural attack example shows a case where it does make a difference,
so if paizo doesn't intend that, they should really fix it...
tigers (or tiger AC's, etc) with rake should indeed get double benefits from INA:Claws per current RAW.
i think if rake were amended to specify "talons", that could only make things more consistent.