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Added discussion thread for Goblinworks Blog: I Heard It through the Grapevine.
Nice, I had forgotten it was that day again. Always good to hear we are being listened to. Was hoping to hear/see more of how the demo is going, but I guess a lot of things are being implemented in the near future.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I just walked by a demo/approval meeting where the GW team was showing some Paizo folks some of what they've done to date. Got to see something very similar to the blog's image through the window as I passed, except it was moving around. Very cool stuff happening that I'm sure Ryan will show off soon.
Goblin Squad Member
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I just walked by a demo/approval meeting where the GW team was showing some Paizo folks some of what they've done to date. Got to see something very similar to the blog's image through the window as I passed, except it was moving around. Very cool stuff happening that I'm sure Ryan will show off soon.
Oi, who let you out of the PFS cave!
Goblinworks Founder
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I am so happy with this recent Blog.
Authenticators for everyone day one is brilliant!
The limits on negative speech are super important to building a positive community. Personally, I've found continuous exposure to nastiness in other MMO communities to be a bummer.
Thank you!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It’s good to hear about GW’s plans in relation to naming conventions, security and communication policy. And it’s nice to know that you’re aiming to get the tech demo done by the end of Sept 2012.
Every time there is a new blog I hope it’s in relation to how the magic system will work. Like many, that is going to be the key aspect that I’m interested in. Still, it seem like progress is being made, which is great. And a big thanks to GW for actually involving the community to such a huge degree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every time there is a new blog I hope it’s in relation to how the magic system will work.I can't speak for Ryan, but I strongly suspect you'll read a blog about basic combat well before you read one about magic.
I enjoy all of the blogs and I understand that getting the magic system finalised is going to be a mammoth job. So while I'm impatient it's because I'm so excited by the game and its potential. It's not a criticism on GW at all. You're doing a fantastic job.
No mentions of sex allowed in game? I'm sorry, but that is pretty lame. Not a game breaker by any means, but f~+$ing lame and weak. I guess it's what you have to expect with an American company though.
Everything else was cool and I loved the screenshot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ravening - to echo what Vic said, I think that the design progression is likely "figure out basic combat, figure out basic crafting, figure out basic harvesting, then worry about magic". Beyond saying "there will be spells, spellcasting and magic items" so much of how a magic system works derives from how other parts of the game system work so you have to build that stuff first then figure out the way to make magic cool and fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No mentions of sex allowed in game? ... f&+*ing lame and weak.
Don't talk about bodily fluids, functions, or make reference to sex or sex acts.
Does it strike you as lame and weak that we're not allowed to mention spitting, too?
Or does it occur to you that maybe this is the kind of broad rule they will refer back to when some idiot thinks he's being clever by filling public chat with graphic depictions of gnome porn?
But by all means, don't let reason or proportion stop you from America-bashing.
@Hanz McBattle - you need to read that post again.
We don't want you talking about sex in open chat and we don't want you doing it in private chat unless it's mutually ok.
That's not an American thing. It's a common sense thing.
Sorry, I didn't read right.
Hope you still love me, great lord of PFO :(
Just to be sure, this supposed Authenticator app will being Android as well as iPhone. Right? Other than that, I am really psyched to start playing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"We're going to have a very tough policy on bad names. We reserve the right, at any time, for any reason, to make you choose a new name."
Kickass, no Drizzt clones!
"We are going to have a really tough policy on saying offensive things in public communications."
Awesome, no "Anal [Fishing]" in Trade chat!
"We're likely not going to have a profanity filter; they tend not to work very well."
Thank f$%&*ing god.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ravening - to echo what Vic said, I think that the design progression is likely "figure out basic combat, figure out basic crafting, figure out basic harvesting, then worry about magic". Beyond saying "there will be spells, spellcasting and magic items" so much of how a magic system works derives from how other parts of the game system work so you have to build that stuff first then figure out the way to make magic cool and fun.
Good to know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So no mentioning of blood, food digestion, breathing, or child birth? Sweet! So does this mean there will be no need to eat or breathe in the game? On a seriously note, great call with this one. It's simple. Don't be a jackass.
I also like the idea of a looming evisceration for those flagrant and habitual offenders, who bank on the idea that they won't ever get in trouble because GW has a small staff. With a game designed increase your investment in characters, it makes said evisceration all the more effective as a punishment.
Both good calls. Also, I loved the screenshot... i can't wait to see the level of detail an environment will have.
Most of this sounds good, but I DO hope you'll allow for an appeal process. IE in the case of a misunderstanding over a name (maybe you assume a name, used prominently in some little-known book, is copyrighted, only to discover that it's actually a legitimate name that just fell out of use 200 years ago) or bodily fluids (guy gets banned, but turns out it was a misunderstanding and actually he just meant to say "be right back, i'm gonna go take a bathroom break"), that sort of thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, for those of us without smartphones, how would an email authentication work? Would I have to send an email and wait on a reply before logging in?
By then they'll probably be better known as little robot helpers and run various daily tasks. :)
The scale of what ArenaNet had to work with is... staggering. But it's cool to see them set up the right attitude and spirit for the game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that the "no appeal" bans won't be for borderline cases.
Trusting strangers to make judgement calls is among the hardest things for me to do. Any chance that you will create unrenumerated volunteer positions, who have the job of sorting complaints into "obviously justified" "in good faith but not obvious" or "this complaint is in bad faith". I think that would help the actual mods prioritize reports and stop obvious abuses faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Probably goes without saying...but I just want to make sure...the "no racial slurs" things applies to RL races (i.e. players talking to other players) not fantasy races when RPing.... i.e. I assume something like "Hey pointy ears, watch where you're shooting" when spoken to an elf is perfectly acceptable?
My Friends-
I saw this blog a little late (woke up Thursday, and realized that yesterday was Wednesday), but I'm thrilled with the choices that have been made.
I was admittedly concerned by the rampant account hacking displayed on GW2 release, and am thrilled about authentication. I wish to have a toast with you fine people: Here's to hoping it will indeed be only 30 seconds, and not 5 minutes for the email version.
Also, I just wish, (as long as I propose a toast) to raise my glass to the Naming System that Goblinworks has decided to implement. No more Drizzt The XVII, no more imafighter2, and no more obscene slap-in-the-face names.
Here's to immersion.
A third toast will be briefly downed to the lack of filters. Every filter I have ever played with is either paranoid beyond all get out, or useless. Either way, they can be circumvented, and the paranoid ones just frustrate normal conversation.
To sensible speech.
And now, a final toast - and be sure that Blaeringr didn't slip something in your drink - let us stand for this one:
To the tech demo! Prepare ye the way!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hanz McBattle - you need to read that post again.
We don't want you talking about sex in open chat and we don't want you doing it in private chat unless it's mutually ok.
That's not an American thing. It's a common sense thing.
Sorry, I didn't read right.
Hope you still love me, great lord of PFO :(
Well, I still think you have a point. It's somehow ironic - that's my European view - that it's perfectly okay to poison people, to shoot them, to stick a sword in your enemy's chest, to probably kill entire tribes of goblins to put weakening curses (-> torturin) and what not, while it's forbidden by banning law to talk about a sexual act.
It's not America bashing at all, it just strikes me as odd because violence (generally not awesome) seems to be no problem but sex (a great thing) isn't. Here, on Swiss and German TV you can see boobies probably everytime you watch TV, while violence is more or less limited to late night TV. It's also ironic that everyone in the US seems to freak out over a pair of breasts but every 10-year-old can play Call of Duty - while we have debates going on wether violent videogames should get banned entirely.
Edit: By the way I absolutely support these rules but I have some concern about the profanity thing because it's always a point of view thing and "offensive" statements are not always intended to be offensive. For example I think that ArenaNet is really, really petty about some of those cases and I hope that's not happening to PFO.
FYI, I don't intend to use a lot of profanity and also I'm not a dick. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Caedryan, I think the best way to think of it is that the rules being laid out are not absolute, but are there to support GW should they decide to ban/discipline a troublemaker.
Don't threaten anyone.
Does anyone honestly believe that GW is going to discipline one player for threatening to kill another?
It's a terrible thing when a State makes laws that it can then choose to selectively enforce, but it's perfectly fine for a private business to do so as a way to give their customers a general idea of what is and is not acceptable while leaving them plenty of leeway to act in their best interests without being constrained by the letter of the law.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have seen my fair share of general chat topics over the course of time, some were entertaining, some were down right annoying me
Sometimes i enjoy goofing around in general chat, i talk about a lot of things, sometimes i even talk about sex. Mostly that is entertaining and in good spirits.
If i could start a petition on what kinda talk you need to remove from chats, it's the whole WoW comparison drama that happens every time. But sex?
If someone is being a complete jerk, i put em on ignore.
I disagree with completely forbidding discussion topics.
Honestly i have read some weird stuff in general chat, yet it's exactly that kinda nonsense that makes me giggle aswell.
In my opinion you just remove a part of the mmo entertainment.
Everyone should be able to decide on his own if he wants to participate or just ignore it.
Other then that, authenticators sound great and are really needed.
And that screenshot is looking good, keep it coming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I gather that the restrictions on what can and can't be said depends on whether it is aimed at the avatar, or the person behind it. Calling an elf a pointy eared tree hugging moron would be ok. Using a racial slur at the person behind the avatar isn't ok. I assume the same applies to the slurs about gender and religion's and to threatening . If its aimed at the avatar and part of good RP then I imagine it will be fine.
The restrictions only apply to ingame methods of communication. If you're talking on vent, TS or one of the other internet voice chatting methods, then that would unmonitored, so you're free to express yourself however you like.
That's my take on the restrictions to communications. I'm more than happy to give GW the benfit of the doubt and assume that they won't be draconian in their enforcement of these restrictions and will use a common-sense approach, and only come down on those who deserve it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I still think you have a point. It's somehow ironic - that's my European view - that it's perfectly okay to poison people, to shoot them, to stick a sword in your enemy's chest, to probably kill entire tribes of goblins to put weakening curses (-> torturin) and what not, while it's forbidden by banning law to talk about a sexual act.
The internet is rampant with sexual predators. Since this won't be a "Mature Content" game, children will be online. Allowing sex, minors, and adults in the same forum is usually not a good idea. GW's implementation of this rule is not only to protect children playing the game, but to protect its naive adult population as well. You don't know who is on the other of the keyboard. Some adults can be manipulated by young teens and while the teen may have instigated the whole situation its still the adult that gets charged. Its a common sense rule aimed at protecting children. It keeps GW and Paizo's names clean in the public eye.
As far as sex vs violence goes in America, we've been prude for a while but that is waning. I just think it boils down to the fact that sex is more personal than violence. Sex crimes tend to be more personal than getting beat down.
I'm fairly confident that GW will bring common sense into the equation. Trying to sell a dwarf threatening to shove a bow up an elf's arse because he keeps getting shot as "conspiracy to commit aggravated force-able sodomy with a weapon" is quite a stretch but actually falls under the confides of "sex". I doubt seriously that said dwarf's comment will be interpreted that way.
And I'm sorry if people can't say what they want in public chat, but if my 13 year old son is playing a game, I don't want him hearing about bestiality, S&M, or any other left field adult shenanigans. Good call GW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if we got pubs? They are 18+, can serve alcohol, and the proprietor sets the level of debauchery. Even put a sign on the door, rated R for violence and language. Let people vote with their presences what topics they are comfortable with.
Though extremely abusive behavior shouldn't be tolerated.
Because again, 10 year olds on Call of Duty. They've put in age limits for years, but it has not EVER worked once. Set a game to be 13+, kids of age 8 will play it anyways. I did that for a long time when I was below the age (although gladly, I don't have to do so now that I'm an adult.) If you want adult chat time, just talk to your buds.
Although really, I don't really think it's the 10 year olds' faults they play Call of Duty so much as the parents that let them do so, and then the kids that peer pressure them to, and again, their parents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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lol, I was sorely tempted to suggest to Hanz that I thought his post must have been written by an American: Such irony would have been enjoyed. ;) But the question answers itself doesn't, if you've already identified one culture that may have very different ideas about eg nudity and therefore different social norms you're already on the way to working out a general setting of expectatations that needs to be stated that allows people to know to keep in polite discussion.
@Whitelock: Without context, and talking about a general policy it's not even in the courtroom. I think the blog is just saying if those topics are mentioned in a slight way then players should take a pause and notice they're wading into those waters before continuing. That's what I got from it. And rightly so, once you know there are "swim between the coastguard flags" then you know you're at your own risk going further outside that, is what it's suggesting right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So we are back to: Letting any minor ever even hear about sex is the most terrible thing that could ever happen and would corrupt there pure little minds...
I don't really buy that... What -is- the problem with letting kids hear about sex?
I don't think the problem is letting them hear about sex. I think the problem is that there are different social standards of what is acceptable and people aren't always keeping this in mind. My oldest two kids have both had a class on puberty / sex education. Both when they were 10. This isn't the problem.
The problem is people interpret "casual conversation" differently. So while someone may include transgender subjects in casual conversation, I don't want my kids hearing about it until they are older. As a parent, I believe if I let my child play a game online where they can interact with adults, them possibly hearing these things is partly a risk I take. I also expect the people behind the game to adhere to the guidelines they set. That way, if I let my kid play a "Mature" game with violence and language, I know what to expect.
To answer your question, there is no problem with letting children hear about sex. It is the context of the conversation that is the potential problem... and instead of outlining in graphic detail which subjects are good to go and which are bad and then bouncing those off of the player populations' ethical and moral standards, then trying to find some common ground that people are still going to complain about... GW did the common sense thing. Err on the side of caution, ban it all and be done with it. You will never get a 100% consensus on borderline subjects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think people are missing a little bit of the point here. The policy applies to public chat channels. If there is some channel created and "owned" by a settlement or guild or whatever that will prob not be held to the same standard as the public channel. At least that's the way I interpret it.
If you are a member of the Seventh Veil, and they have their own chat channel, then you can chat there according to their rules.
Tony's Totally Legitimate Breadmaking Business may have a channel of their own. Their channel, their rules.