Goblin Squad Member
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Look, I'm the biggest defender of Free Speech around, but this really has nothing to do with that. We're all guests in GW house and they are simply setting some ground rules as to what they percieve as polite behavior from thier guests. This helps eliminate confusion and people saying "but I didn't know up front." Thier goal, I'm sure, is to simply create an atmosphere where ALL thier guests feel comfortable and can be entertained.
The fact that you or I or even alot of us here probably are thick enough skinned to have no problem with 90 percent of the stuff that's banned doesn't mean it's going to be true for everybody.
RE: The kids and adult content thing....kids mature at different rates and thier level of maturity is going to dictate what they are going to be able to handle at what age. Parents just want to be able to exert some control over when and how thier kids learn about certain things so they know the kids are getting accurate info. Frankly I think Europe (and us here in the states to a degree as well) are doing thier kids a bit of a disservice by forcing them to deal with adult content too early and not allowing them to be simply kids.
In regards the over-exposure to violence thing...there may be a point there...but no one's handing thier kid a loaded AK-47 and telling them to go out and play unsupervised. In the case of sex, they've already got the loaded AK-47, and it's not like you can take it away from them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of my favorite blogs, because GW is showing that the in-character environment is important. Setting a strong standard in the beginning is absolutely key in a game where player-interaction is the focus.
All of the anti-hacking stuff is cool, but really the elements that focus on in-character interaction is absolutely key if this is going to come close to the vision GW has presented.
Kudos.
In the case of sex, they've already got the loaded AK-47, and it's not like you can take it away from them.
Well, you COULD. That's just a whole different set of issues to work through with your kid...
That being said, I'd never thought of the comparison between sex as a problem and violence as the same that way before. I don't have children myself, but the analogy nevertheless made me smile and - more importantly - shed a new light on the difference between the two, at least for me.
Good work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest I'm not worried about what kids see or hear. I'm realistic enough to know that any kid playing an MMO on the Internet has already seen more porn than I saw until I was 30.
I want to create an environment that is healthy for women. The sex-talk is a huge wedge that misogynistic male gamers use to play out their little Shades of Grey fantasies against women in on-line spaces and I don't want that nonsense in my game. It creates an environment of hostility and toxicity. If we can take a stand against it, we'll attract an undeserved audience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Personal Anecdotes...
You're missing the point pretty dramatically. The "Gamer Culture" is one that is openly, proudly misogynistic, and at the very very least, chauvinistic. In an MMO, that is prevalent in everything from how the game is designed, to the verbal abuses that can dominate any public channel. To pretend this isn't the case is naive, and to pretend that the anonymity that exists on the Interwebs won't continue to foster the vomit of low self esteem men is also naive.
When Goblinworks (and to a certain degree of separation Paizo) say they want to have high standards to the language and flavor in use, its not on a puritanical whim. Its in the hope and desire to make an inclusive game that brings as many people to the table as possible, both as a philosophical goal, and as sound business sense. No manner of systemic or customer service based controls will eliminate the inherent misogyny of the internet. But, if they state a high standard up front, and stick to it diligently, they'll have done far more than most MMOs to allow for a diversity of Players.
The Shades of Grey reference wasn't (as i read it) a direct reference to BDSM, which everyone can agree will be well outside of the spectrum of public acceptability. It was in reference to the power and control oriented manipulations and abuses that are so prevalent. My girlfriend (an avid MMO player) and I chat about this about as frequently as it rears its ugly head in our gaming space, and while its not every week, it is at least 1 out of every 4.
While i don't think girl gamers need protection, or coddling (in itself a pervasive and subtle form of sexism), I do applaude PFO's goal of providing the policy and the tools to allow all types/flavors/genres of players to take action against the sincerely offensive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look, I'm the biggest defender of Free Speech around, but this really has nothing to do with that. We're all guests in GW house and they are simply setting some ground rules as to what they percieve as polite behavior from thier guests. This helps eliminate confusion and people saying "but I didn't know up front." Thier goal, I'm sure, is to simply create an atmosphere where ALL thier guests feel comfortable and can be entertained.....
Agreed. GW is just setting the ground rules up front so we're all on the same page. Nothing is stopping us from expressing ourselves over voice chat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's an interesting logic behind the rule.
I get it, but honestly, the vast majority of female gaming population I've encountered can hold their own with men all around. The MMO community, more so within the PFO community, I've seen anything but misogyny. The RPG community has been probably to most welcoming gaming community towards women. FPS communities are a hundred times harsher. I just hope people aren't getting banned because the person they were having a disagreement with happened to be the opposite gender and the "perpetrator" told the opposing gender to go f- their self.
As long as it's not one-sided and not abuse-able, I don't see it taking away from the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest I'm not worried about what kids see or hear. I'm realistic enough to know that any kid playing an MMO on the Internet has already seen more porn than I saw until I was 30.
I want to create an environment that is healthy for women. The sex-talk is a huge wedge that misogynistic male gamers use to play out their little Shades of Grey fantasies against women in on-line spaces and I don't want that nonsense in my game. It creates an environment of hostility and toxicity. If we can take a stand against it, we'll attract an undeserved audience.
Just having had good conversations with a few female gamers, it has been made obvious to me that this is in fact a problem. Most of the time the women take silly video game male behavior it in stride. but things tend to get out of hand a lot more easily over the internet. I've heard of some real horror stories
Chief Technical Officer
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To be honest I'm not worried about what kids see or hear. I'm realistic enough to know that any kid playing an MMO on the Internet has already seen more porn than I saw until I was 30.
I want to create an environment that is healthy for women. The sex-talk is a huge wedge that misogynistic male gamers use to play out their little Shades of Grey fantasies against women in on-line spaces and I don't want that nonsense in my game. It creates an environment of hostility and toxicity. If we can take a stand against it, we'll attract an undeserved audience.
While Ryan's response is good, and I agree with everything he said, my response goes a different direction to get to the same endpoint.
Paizo creates our Pathfinder products for ages 13 and up, and our licensees, including Goblinworks, are expected to do the same. (Licensees can adjust that slightly as appropriate for their industry where needed—for example, WizKids has requirements that cause Pathfinder Battles minis to be labeled "Ages 14+", while Dynamite's Pathfinder comics are labeled "T+"). Even our open Pathfinder Compatibility License carries an adult-content clause: "You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors."
Because Pathfinder Online users will be generating content, we'll be requiring Goblinworks to put a similar clause in the Terms of Use that each user will have to accept.
The Pathfinder brand is the most important and most valuable thing we own at Paizo, and it's of crucial import to us that it appears only on products that the average teen (and their parents) can feel comfortable with.
It's very simply not open to negotiation—if you're looking for a game with adult content, Pathfinder Online will not be the game for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's really what it boils down to.
It's a game that minors will have access to. Different cultures have different standards, but I believe Paizo's intent is to keep it right around the same range of acceptance where ever their audience hails from. Just as you won't be allowed to talk about certain subjects, I doubt that their will be any nudity in the game but also their won't be the "gruesome COD FPS" level of violence on display either.
From ESRB - TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.
That's probably a relatively close hit to their target objective although online gaming interactions aren't rated by the ESRB.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Underserved". Yeah - that was a meaningfully missing "r". :)
"Shades of Gray". That "point" thing? You flew right past it. Slow down next time, and you'll be able to keep up with the thread.
"Misogyny": Start here, and keep reading until you are able to come back and say "oh! I get it!" Not there yet? Keep following links and reading. If you have half a brain and a smidgen of conscience, you'll get it eventually.
http://jezebel.com/5938972/a-call-to-arms-for-decent-men
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting video I found. NSFW.
As far as the article goes, I think it's a bit of a stretch. In reality, it is a chimera of social issues from the start. Not a violent crime.
Poverty, ethics, environment, media, crime, family, and parenting plus a few dozen more variables.
It's not just about women, it's bullying in general. I've been the "victim" of things just as harsh as what this chick endured. She handled it well. Should she have had to endure it? No. Irregardless, this wasn't "woman hating" speech. This was a guy pissed off because a chick beat him. Are some sexist comments thrown in? Yes. But if she were a dude, he'd be saying the same thing with different nouns. Same goes for if she were Asian, Black, Mexican, Gay, Lesbian, or Martian.
In the end, it shouldn't matter who is being the victim of harassment and verbal assault. Its unnecessary to take it to that extent.
@Ryan: I would hope that you want to create a healthy environment for all your players... minus the dirt bags obviously. Judging by the racial, ethnical, religious, etc slurs bullet, I take it you do.
Like I said before, kudos on personal behavior policies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's an interesting logic behind the rule.
I get it, but honestly, the vast majority of female gaming population I've encountered can hold their own with men all around.
You never want to target the exact same audience as your competitors. Look at the Nintendo Wii, if it had not brought vast amounts of new gamers to the audience it would have tanked against other consoles.
From Ryans comments in older threads, it seems he is trying to target a large female audience. I'm sure there are tons of potential female gamers that simply don't like the juvenile atmosphere in every online game. And there are probably a good chunk of male gamers in the same boat. If GW can make a game with a 'Good' atmosphere, they will bring a new standard to the market and
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@GW, be careful with censorship. If something is going to be censored it should be offensive to a very large chunk of the audience. Unless a pronoun has a copyright attached to it, I would leave it out of your guidelines.
The fight against censor subversion is turning into a picture of a duck, wait! no its a Rabbit!... or is it a duck...
While keeping things 'clean' it is also important there is not, under any circumstances be a system where anything that offends anybody can get removed. People should be told to thicken their skin at the same time they are being told to report potentially offensive things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Forlarren - I want you worried every time you THINK you might be getting close to a line you shouldn't cross. I want the exact opposite of a "clear" rule. That's just asking for the rule to be gamed. Community management isn't a game.
I want people to err on the side of caution and restraint. Never exactly knowing where that landmine is? That tends to keep folks much, much better behaved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kevin Mack, the unclear rule means that people who are genuinely trying to avoid breaking the rule will behave in a way that doesn't even come close to violating it. Whereas a clear rule means the people who are genuinely trying to get away with as much as they possibly can feel a sense of entitlement to nudge right up next to the rule and, when told to knock it off, will say "But I haven't broken this clearly defined rule!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Never exactly knowing where that landmine is? That tends to keep folks much, much better behaved.
You know, we've got different views on a lot of stuff, but I love your logic behind this. I really do.
@Kevin - Think of it this way. In the US the speed limit on the interstate highway is usually 70mph. Each mile over is roughly $20 bucks after a flat "you were speeding" fine of $150.
The police have gotten in the habit of not pulling anyone over unless they are doing at least 7 miles over 77mph. They bring in at least $240 for their city, county, state, etc.
So even though the speed limit is 70mph, I get away with 74mph all the time. I know how far I can push this limit over the line and get away with it, so I do it fairly regularly.
If the speed limit were between 40 and 80mph, people would be getting popped for 52, 75, 68, etc. This in turn keeps people at around 40 sometimes 45. That is about how much they could theoretically get away with... but they'd have that thought popping in their head.
This would result in the average population keeping their speed much lower. Up the penalty for speeding to a year in jail with an additional 6 months per 5mph over ... you decimate the number of offenders you have. Now no one is going anywhere near 80MPH because that's 5 years in jail.
Ryan is setting up the same thing, except in his world their are fewer cops and you get 20 to life if you get caught going even 1 mile over the speed limit.
This doesn't work in real life because laws go to court and have to be clear. GW is making a game that has policy and that means they can make the rules up however they like and change them whenever they like. Does it suck... sure, but that's only if you are in the habit of being a jerk.
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Well, I still think you have a point. It's somehow ironic - that's my European view - that it's perfectly okay to poison people, to shoot them, to stick a sword in your enemy's chest, to probably kill entire tribes of goblins to put weakening curses (-> torturin) and what not, while it's forbidden by banning law to talk about a sexual act.The internet is rampant with sexual predators. Since this won't be a "Mature Content" game, children will be online. Allowing sex, minors, and adults in the same forum is usually not a good idea. GW's implementation of this rule is not only to protect children playing the game, but to protect its naive adult population as well. You don't know who is on the other of the keyboard. Some adults can be manipulated by young teens and while the teen may have instigated the whole situation its still the adult that gets charged. Its a common sense rule aimed at protecting children. It keeps GW and Paizo's names clean in the public eye.
Actually, the specific rule does NOTHING to address this. The rule says you can talk about sex as long as it's in a PM and it's mutual - meaning if some sexual predator develops a friendship with some kid, and the kid says he's open to it, they can talk about sex and the child can get abducted or whatever it is you're afraid of.
Banning public mentions of "yeah, I enjoy sex" really doesn't do ANYTHING to combat child abduction. And, for the record, while that DOES happen via the Internet sometimes, the actual statistics and rate of that sort of this is pretty statistically small - people just freak out about it and assume, like you did, that "the Internet is rampant with sexual predators."
******
I've seen a lot of communities (whether they be in games, private servers, forums, whatever) that try to implement content/context filters like Goblinworks has mentioned here - you can technically type any word you want, but type a certain combination of words in the wrong order (to make a statement "sexual" or "offensive") and you'll get banned. They've all failed miserably.
The problem is that what is "offensive" and what is "sexual" and what is actually mentioning "bodily fluids" and what is an innocent "BRB, gotta take a pee" is totally completely and entirely subjective. Not just to the players, but assuming you have enough moderators to handle the website each one of them will have different personal views of what is offensive and what is sexual and so on.
This type of filtering doesn't seem like it works in the modern era of the Internet. It's trying to tighten your grip around grains of sand, and that just causes them to slip through your fingers. Obviously GW is going to try it, but I'm really expecting it to not work, to drive away players, or to backfire.
As much as I respect their principles and reasons for wanting to enact those context filters... I don't think it's a good idea.
And I'm sorry if people can't say what they want in public chat, but if my 13 year old son is playing a game, I don't want him hearing about bestiality, S&M, or any other left field adult shenanigans. Good call GW.
But it's A-OKAY if he hears about a gang of robbers waiting for a lone bard to exit a pub late at night in a back alley and club him to a bloody pulp until he's lying on the ground, drowning in his own blood, as they steal his every possession and leave him to writhe and slowly die in agony on the ground?
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Up the penalty for speeding to a year in jail with an additional 6 months per 5mph over ... you decimate the number of offenders you have. Now no one is going anywhere near 80MPH because that's 5 years in jail.
Ryan is setting up the same thing, except in his world their are fewer cops and you get 20 to life if you get caught going even 1 mile over the speed limit.
This doesn't work in real life because laws go to court and have to be clear. GW is making a game that has policy and that means they can make the rules up however they like and change them whenever they like. Does it suck... sure, but that's only if you are in the habit of being a jerk.
1) Harsher sentencing has been shown to not really have much of an impact on law breakers. See; DUIs, drug use (especially crack cocaine), prostitution, and so on.
2) The problem with "there are fewer cops and you get 20-to-life for going even 1 mile over and GW can make the rules up however they like and chain them whenever they like" is that it's a system that openly invites and embraces corruption on the side of the moderation team.
Get into a disagreement with a moderator? Sorry, a week ago you said something offensive and now you're banned. Make a trade with some guy that ends up being not very good for that some guy? Unfortunately that guy is friends with a moderator - looks like you're getting banned now!
The reason in real life laws "need to be clear" and go to court is because it forces accountability onto those who enforce the law, and it allows for protections of abuse of power. Without clear laws and an ability to hold those with power accountable, there would be nothing stopping the State from becoming a corrupt, totalitarian, power-hungry, irrational entity. And if you think that "man is inherently good" and "would choose to use their power for good, not for evil," I encourage you to look at pretty much anything from history ever where those in charge had that much power.
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SUMMARY: If there's no defined rules, if the only definition is "whatever we say, goes," there's 0 accountability for moderators, there's every reason to cheat and game the system if you are a moderator or have the ear of one, and there's no fair process of appealing or knowing if a moderator's decision was a subjective stretch or an actual fair decision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Reliken- Right, it's such a small percentage that law enforcement agencies have task forces set up specifically for it. And the instances in which I was speaking about my children not over hearing were like those of Diskord's, "Honestly i have read some weird stuff in general chat, yet it's exactly that kinda nonsense that makes me giggle aswell."
And yes, I would much rather have my child exposed to violence as a teen then sex. He's my kid, you don't like it, oh well. By all means apply your parenting style to your kids but don't tell me how to raise mine.
Secondly, two of the three examples of crime you gave had a very particular variable involved. Addiction. That doesn't factor into my scenario. Case and point, noise ordinances. Google that and tell me what the ratio was before and then after stricter enforcement and punishment.
@Forlarren- Pay attention.
We'll have a multistep process for bad communications. You'll be warned, suspended, and/or banned depending on the frequency, the severity, and the situation of the infraction. But there are some things you'll be booted for without appeal.
Don't use racial slurs.
Don't use gender slurs.
Don't use sexual preference slurs.
Don't use religious slurs.
Don't threaten anyone.
Don't compare anyone to any person or group of historical infamy.
Don't talk about bodily fluids, functions, or make reference to sex or sex acts.We don't have the time or inclination to run a daycare, so we're not going to watch all the girls and boys all the time to make sure they're playing nice. We are going to arbitrarily and without warning pounce on people who are misbehaving at times and places of our choosing. This kind of approach has the maximum effect of deterring bad behavior—you can't game a system if you don't know the rules. You might get away with something 100 times and get caught the 101st.
You like goggling stuff? Google what I bolded. That should clear things up enough for you to operate within the confines of them. If not, then yes, you should probably find another game to play.
You can argue about it all you want. It's their game, their rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Secondly, two of the three examples of crime you gave had a very particular variable involved. Addiction.
And the third frequently indirectly involves addiction and/or unlawful coercion. Not always, but frequently enough to throw off any meaningful statistics related to trying to determine the effectiveness of enforcing laws.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is no big deal. Just treat people online the way you would like to be treated...
Amen, brother.
All the harping really confuses me. It's like going over to play poker at a new buddy's house and trying to get him to lay out exactly what behavior is inappropriate with his thirteen year old daughter.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I wonder if GW has considered the possibility of helping the community moderate in some form or fashion to knock out some of the workload on their side and to keep things up to par.
Here are a couple examples of where these resources could assist:
From time to time, as resources permit, we will likely audit character names and convert them from probationary to approved...
We don't have the time or inclination to run a daycare, so we're not going to watch all the girls and boys all the time to make sure they're playing nice. We are going to arbitrarily and without warning pounce on people who are misbehaving at times and places of our choosing.
Maybe add in a time requirement to keep just anyone from doing it and then also add in a rating system for GW to rate and then remove any un-needed mods. This way the mods could do a lot of the leg work of scanning through the audits and breaking them down further into lists of yes, no and maybe to make it even easier for a final say from GW. Maybe even getting to the point where if you become a 5 star mod or something you can skip the whole process of having to have GW verify things and force name changes etc.
Just a thought, but I've seen this work in smaller game communities so why not use it for a large community? The gamers themselves are a largely un-tapper resource in my opinon that companies could and should tap into to help them make their games as good as they can be through moderation and especially QA IMHO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Forlarren - I want you worried every time you THINK you might be getting close to a line you shouldn't cross. I want the exact opposite of a "clear" rule. That's just asking for the rule to be gamed. Community management isn't a game.
I want people to err on the side of caution and restraint. Never exactly knowing where that landmine is? That tends to keep folks much, much better behaved.
I LOVE THIS!! You are my hero!
Even if there aren't a LOT of lopsided bans, the fact that there is so much potential (even just for a few, going under the radar) for it to happen really, really unsettles me.
Maybe it's just because I'm an American, but I'm a big believer in the saying "It is better to let nine guilty men free than to convict one innocent man."
Yeah, these rules will let us catch a lot of bad guys and they won't be able to argue their way out of it by citing rules or petitioning or whatever... But I'd be willing to bet money there are going to be undeserving, unmerited, unwarranted bans, too, and those innocent users will just be screwed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm American too, I just get it.
You'll be warned, suspended, and/or banned depending on the frequency, the severity, and the situation of the infraction. But there are some things you'll be booted for without appeal.
Don't use racial slurs.
Don't use gender slurs.
Don't use sexual preference slurs.
Don't use religious slurs.
Don't threaten anyone.
Don't compare anyone to any person or group of historical infamy.
Don't talk about bodily fluids, functions, or make reference to sex or sex acts.
These rules don't govern teamspeak servers. What this boils down to is in the one channel that people cannot get away from, "Public Chat via text" you have to mind your P's and Q's. I'm sure this applies to sending people /tells as well... but there's an ignore list for that.
I'm sure that bans will get reviewed. You just won't be privy to that review. People aren't perfect but when it is laid out in black and white, as Ryan has done, and you cross that line by an inch or a mile, you crossed it and you have no one to blame but yourself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if there aren't a LOT of lopsided bans, the fact that there is so much potential (even just for a few, going under the radar) for it to happen really, really unsettles me.
Maybe it's just because I'm an American, but I'm a big believer in the saying "It is better to let nine guilty men free than to convict one innocent man."
Yeah, these rules will let us catch a lot of bad guys and they won't be able to argue their way out of it by citing rules or petitioning or whatever... But I'd be willing to bet money there are going to be undeserving, unmerited, unwarranted bans, too, and those innocent users will just be screwed.
You seem to be concerned that moderators or GMs are going to go from zero to banhammer on a typo in a public channel. This is putting zero faith in the ability for Goblinworks to properly train and dictate how their internal policies will work. The idea of a "Rogue" GM selling favors or wielding power in an inappropriate way is also somewhat shortsighted. No modern, well designed system can allow for that, and if it were to happen, that person would likely lose their job.
Just because the rules are published to the general populace doesn't mean that the internal staff won't have a well defined set of guidelines to follow in the case of offenses. Well payed, well trained, motivated and sensitive moderators with access to chat logs will make short work of serious offenders, and likely avoid false positives. Having an anonymous reporting tool, or a vague ruleset does nothing to diminish the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All of these problems fall into a bucket I call "bad names." A bad name is a name that makes our game less fun, angers someone else, breaks immersion, is a copyright or trademark infringement, or identity theft.
This is good, but what about "good names":
On the other hand, we'll have a robust name generator. If you choose to use the name generator, the name you get will be automatically approved. And if we have to change a generated name because something causes us to re-evaluate it, we'll work with you to get you a new name that is as close to your old one as possible. (An example of this could be a person or group that happens to correspond to your generated name becoming infamous for an act of terror. Bad luck, but these things can happen.)
I appreciate there is a delicate balance between player freedom of expression for choosing a name they might already be invested in, but does Golarion have naming/language conventions in the same manner as eg Tolkien: Certain linguistic rules apply for particular "races" & their languages?
So would it be a suitable idea to expect people to use the name generator or at least a version of it that allows them to combine elements that fit "internal rules of language in Golarion"? Not motioning for or against, mostly curious, but I wonder if such strictness on language/naming might be the best solution?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So would it be a suitable idea to expect people to use the name generator or at least a version of it that allows them to combine elements that fit "internal rules of language in Golarion"?
I seriously doubt this would be tolerated. I would imagine many (maybe even most?) players have "good" names they've already used for years, and would be extremely upset if they were forced to use different names in PFO. Count me in that group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So would it be a suitable idea to expect people to use the name generator or at least a version of it that allows them to combine elements that fit "internal rules of language in Golarion"?I seriously doubt this would be tolerated. I would imagine many (maybe even most?) players have "good" names they've already used for years, and would be extremely upset if they were forced to use different names in PFO. Count me in that group.
What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names. What is described in the blog seems a fair balance between the in-character atmosphere and pet names. Personally, I would be happy to give up pet names if that meant we never had to see crap OOC names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names. What is described in the blog seems a fair balance between the in-character atmosphere and pet names. Personally, I would be happy to give up pet names if that meant we never had to see crap OOC names.So would it be a suitable idea to expect people to use the name generator or at least a version of it that allows them to combine elements that fit "internal rules of language in Golarion"?I seriously doubt this would be tolerated. I would imagine many (maybe even most?) players have "good" names they've already used for years, and would be extremely upset if they were forced to use different names in PFO. Count me in that group.
Mostly curious what makes sense both for Golarion and for MMORPGs, in general. For example in EvE you have some odd names such as Goonswarm, BOB etc etc, which do not need anchoring in any game lore but they have become in-game lore due to their actions and so are understandable and even understandable (in some cases) to players who are not familiar with EvE (eg Goons, Dreddit).
I'm just contrasting this with Golarion and how players perhaps should be building the world lore by adding to it? The situation which arises, is you have pre-established guilds from other games and I was wondering if they will use "their guild names in PfO" (eg equivalent of Dreddit ie) creating their settlement and map areas owned by "Dreddit".
So that works for the guild and player understanding, but it does not exactly fit with the "chronicles of Golarion" or how the designers might name PvE content (history, culture, names of geography and places and items etc)? I guess it is more sensible for guilds to use their de facto names as that's where the players' understanding of who is who is simplest to understand. But the Pathfinder IP being fantasy seems different from eg EvE where "post-modern" sounding names don't sound out of place so much?
Obvious the utility of using favored pet names might have more weight than the above "scruple"!
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names.
That's generally true. I was mostly talking about players (like myself!) who have a stable of names that are appropriate for a generic fantasy setting, and mostly arguing against the idea that "Nihimon isn't an acceptable name for an Elf in Golarion because Elf names should always end in one of these 64 suffixes".
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names.That's generally true. I was mostly talking about players (like myself!) who have a stable of names that are appropriate for a generic fantasy setting, and mostly arguing against the idea that "Nihimon isn't an acceptable name for an Elf in Golarion because Elf names should always end in one of these 64 suffixes".
Definitely, it could easily & swiftly become counter-productive taken to this extent. A needless grammar police.
Possibly I'm splitting hairs looking at this too much, but I was thinking of Tolkien's take that his stories and world building were motivated and originally derived from language creation: You can't have a language without it's culture and history, and you can't have a people without their own language which needs to be separate from mere English description; which led this author to consider himself the translator of the stories and spending a lot of time acting as a translator his own workings.
So I'm thinking the immersion qualities of a world are positively dependent on NAMES/language having a strong basis. Just a question to what extent?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names.That's generally true. I was mostly talking about players (like myself!) who have a stable of names that are appropriate for a generic fantasy setting, and mostly arguing against the idea that "Nihimon isn't an acceptable name for an Elf in Golarion because Elf names should always end in one of these 64 suffixes".
To the best of my knowledge, their isn't a hard lexicon of names in Pathfinder, and nor is there any seriously defined language derivatives for Naming conventions. I think when they say NO BAD NAMES (aside from the obviously offensive stuff), they mean stuff like "IARPALADIN" and "TruckDriverRailgun". If Nihimon isn't a registered IP somewhere, then i suspect you'll be able to use it. I'd also expect to be able to use something like Gruffling as well. By them telling us there's a hard list of Bad Names, doesn't actually mean there's a hard list of Good names. Anything we type in will be provisional, and as long as it isn't totally off genre, offensive, or IP-protected, i'd expect it to be approved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats,
This is an interesting subject. Personaly I only have access to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook....so I'm not really sure what/if any particular races(peoples) have as far as linguistic rules for naming in Golarion.
Like Nihimon, I wouldn't like to see such linguistic naming conventions enforced, but it would be cool if they were suggested for players seeking something setting appropriate. I also think it would be cool if PFO provided some information as well as possibly some greater background information on the setting for those of us not quite as familiar with it (though I'm trying to get more familiar on my own).
I know Paizo along with many fans's maintain Wiki's of information about the setting... but I think it would be cool if the game either condenced or pointed players in the right direction (links) for the most relevant info in regards character generation.
One of the things I did like about LOTRO is that in the character generator it gave you some suggestions about naming conventions for different people groups....and it actualy created variance charts that where specific to the background (ethinic group) you chose in terms of hair, skin, eye color. They weren't crazily restrictive in that you could generaly get any reasonable look you wanted....but the chart's did show you (visualy) what were the most common variations within range. It was pretty cool.
Of course, Tolkien being a linquist by trade went pretty insane with the background linquistics for his setting, creating several fully functional languages.....so Golarion might not have the same level of linguistic detail.
I did have alot of fun though...perusing Saxon or Old English dictionaries for appropriate sounding names for my Rohirric character(s). For my main (from a RP standpoint) I had actualy gotten to the point where I had named several of my weapons, my mount, my class legendary item.... and probably a couple other things. Again not really neccessary or functional in any regard..but still fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats,
This is an interesting subject. Personaly I only have access to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook....so I'm not really sure what/if any particular races(peoples) have as far as linguistic rules for naming in Golarion.
Like Nihimon, I wouldn't like to see such linguistic naming conventions enforced, but it would be cool if they were suggested for players seeking something setting appropriate. I also think it would be cool if PFO provided some information as well as possibly some greater background information on the setting for those of us not quite as familiar with it (though I'm trying to get more familiar on my own).
I know Paizo along with many fans's maintain Wiki's of information about the setting... but I think it would be cool if the game either condenced or pointed players in the right direction (links) for the most relevant info in regards character generation.
One of the things I did like about LOTRO is that in the character generator it gave you some suggestions about naming conventions for different people groups....and it actualy created variance charts that where specific to the background (ethinic group) you chose in terms of hair, skin, eye color. They weren't crazily restrictive in that you could generaly get any reasonable look you wanted....but the chart's did show you (visualy) what were the most common variations within range. It was pretty cool.
Of course, Tolkien being a linquist by trade went pretty insane with the background linquistics for his setting, creating several fully functional languages.....so Golarion might not have the same level of linguistic detail.
I did have alot of fun though...perusing Saxon or Old English dictionaries for appropriate sounding names for my Rohirric character(s). For my main (from a RP standpoint) I had actualy gotten to the point where I had named several of my weapons, my mount, my class legendary item.... and probably a couple other things. Again not really neccessary or functional in any regard..but still fun.
This is sort of what I was looking for: The advantages of the language used, idiosyncratic to the setting it is used in!! What are the possibilities of encouraging a language system to flourish and develop in game (and uses)?
I agree pretty much that going OTT on language, is likely a case of doing more and more for less and less: No point, and Tolkien being an exception case. But some of the things LOTRs did in this spirit sounds in keeping with the relevance of language :) . So no worries about pushing that point further henceforth; but it would be interesting if language were allowed to evolve in the game world of Golarion with practical relevance of some kind.
I've a soft spot for magic requiring "words of power" to be learnt/dispensed regularly in some form. It's difficult to identify how language might serve a practical use (apart from adding flavor/lore), given in-game chat channels can global, private and voice channels also would make such a "problem" null.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names. What is described in the blog seems a fair balance between the in-character atmosphere and pet names. Personally, I would be happy to give up pet names if that meant we never had to see crap OOC names.
I don't think it would be very wise for GW to enforce such naming conventions, and 'appropriate to the setting' is largely up to personal opinion.
Enforcing language appropriate(non-offensive) and 'real'(actually looks like a name) names would be far enough. I would bet limiting name conventions too much will aggrivate more potential players than those who want RP all the time and never see an 'Immersion breaking'(again this is largely up to personal opinion) name. I don't want to see this game turning into a hardcore RP centered game, because I want to see a large audience participate in this game, if Ryan really wants to do for sandbox MMO's what WoW did to themeparks, his target should be larger, and the vast majority of the MMO crowd does not partake in RP. Right now PFO's vocal following is mostly RP players, there are only a few of us that like the game because of the mechanics and have no inkling to RP, this ratio will most likely shift directions once the game is in the alpha-beta stages and is receiving more press.
The only names that should be changed after creation are the obvious ones, fringe names should be default to the player, a name report should also not reach the eyes of a moderator until there are multiple reports on that player(a few dozen at least). Doing otherwise would be a waste of money and forcing multiple reports ensures that the name is widely regarded as out of place. Something like a name that is a reference to a pop-culture icon, but sounds like it belongs in the setting should also be allowed, like the 3 stooges in Diablo 3.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In regards to the authenticators, please please please have actual, physical authenticators. Some of us don't have or use mobile phones, and having it separate from the other tech/gear/stuff adds an additional level or buffering from potential douchebaggery from the internet at large.