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Hello there!
By literal interpretation of the rules, a handy haversack can hold 120 lbs. and still only weigh the total 5 lbs. of the item. As such, what prevents a player from filling his handy haversack with other handy haversacks to get around the weight restriction of 120lbs? Furthermore, as a handy haversack can 'summon' any desired item inside of it, could one not 'summon' an item that was packed inside of one of the haversacks contained in your haversack?
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?
No, because of this:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
Half legal
You CAN fill the sack with sacks. You would have to pull out the bag you want then open it to get what you want out of it though
SO yes, but I'd keep anything you want to use in combat in the first haversac and anythign that you don't have to hurry with in the second+ sacks.
Its also probably limited by size of the largest HH opening.
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?
No, because of this:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
Wait. . . if they "cease to function" does that mean all of their items pop out?
Wait. . . if they "cease to function" does that mean all of their items pop out?
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?
No, because of this:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
I think it just means you can't acces the extradimensional space that the items are in.
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Wait. . . if they "cease to function" does that mean all of their items pop out?
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?
No, because of this:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
"Cease to function" means it becomes a mundane haversack. Therefore suddenly the 120 lbs of content it holds would pop into this dimension, inside the mundane haversack. Extrapolating from this and imagining what would happen in the most likely circumstance: given the mundane haversack could not hold all that equipment, it would likely cause the haversack to break and spill out its contents yes -- which if it then spilled out its contents into the haversack that contained IT, which would then be more items than THAT haversack could contain, and so would spit out those extra items.
And then, I know a lot of GMs who like the old don't-put-a-bag-of-holding-in-a-portable-hole rule and apply it to ANY dimensional object being put into any OTHER dimensional object... while that is of course a house rule, it's a common enough one to keep in mind and be wary.
Now, since a haversack is only 5 lbs, you could probably just carry 2.
DQ has the correct interpretation. 'ceases to function' does not mean 'items are still stored in extradimensional space.' It means the other haversacks are no longer magical, and all the stuff they've got crammed into them suddenly has to fit into normal space.
So, no Russian nested egg storage for you.
==Aelryinth
"Cease to function" means it becomes a mundane haversack. Therefore suddenly the 120 lbs of content it holds would pop into this dimension, inside the mundane haversack. Extrapolating from this and imagining what would happen in the most likely circumstance: given the mundane haversack could not hold all that equipment, it would likely cause the haversack to break and spill out its contents yes -- which if it then spilled out its contents into the haversack that contained IT, which would then be more items than THAT haversack could contain, and so would spit out those extra items.Wait. . . if they "cease to function" does that mean all of their items pop out?
So... is a handy haverSTACK legal? if not, why not?No, because of this:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
Yes, that. And, remember that when a bag of holding is oveloaded, it splits open, spilling out its contents... and ruining the bag.
My houserule is that putting an extradimensional-space item inside another similar item automatically ruins both items, as the both split open and spill their contents onto the ground.
The "cannot access the item" rule applies only when the character holding such an item walks into an extradimensional space, such as a rope trick or magnificent mansion spells... or an extradimensional building or vehicle, like the TARDIS. (Yes, I know I'm mixing genres...)
So, do GMs in this thread remember to apply all this when a PC with a Haversack falls into the villain's create pit spell?
A haversac full of alchemists fire. ;-)
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So, do GMs in this thread remember to apply all this when a PC with a Haversack falls into the villain's create pit spell?
For the sake of sanity, I treat effects like Create Pit as still being in the same dimension (even if it makes no sense geometrically). Otherwise you have silly things happening like eidolons getting dismissed when they fall in.
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If we take the "cut off from its interior" interpretation, this creates an interesting new ability: While the Haversack is non-functional, we suddenly have access to the mundane interior of the sack itself!
That's an interesting place to hide important objects
Guys, guys, guys, you are looking at this the wrong way! When the extradimensional space is overloaded in such a fasion, yes, the items stored does spill out . . . but not in the material plane! They are scattered in the plane where the haversack (in this case) stored the items! Oops. You just lost two haversacks AND everything stored within them.
But then, I have been told I am an EVIL DM.
MA
So, do GMs in this thread remember to apply all this when a PC with a Haversack falls into the villain's create pit spell?A haversac full of alchemists fire. ;-)
If you use this interpretation, make sure that your players' Bags of Holding which they store all their gold in also explodes. ;)
I am SOOOOO glad I asked this question... DeathQuaker's theory that they could essentially sequentially explode like party favors until the bag on your back burst open like a piñata is awesome... second only to Knight Magenta, who's theory of "The spot nobody will EVER EVER EVER EVER look in" is AWESOME.
I don't see Arminas version of it -- I understand the argument (the 'plane' part of the bag bursting rather than the haversack part) ... but that's just not as elegant or fun to me -- and if you are going to screw the players, it should hopefully be at least be elegant and/or fun.
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Sadly the haversack/bag of holding only becomes inaccesible when placed inside another, so there will be no spontanous bursting. It follow from the last part of the extradimensional spaces rules, I chose not to quote earlier:
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If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
But the conundrum of whether or not it makes the mundane storing capacity of the sack accesible.
Taken this a step further, what happens, when we choose to store our portable hole, there?
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I have always ruled that no extradimensional storage item may be placed inside another. Period. End of problem. Now what my players do is that they will use the haversack creation guidelines to create saddlebags that do the same thing, and then keep things like rations, feed and the like in those and combat oriented stuff, a waterskin, etc.. in the haversack they wear. Yes, you have to basically buy 2+ haversacks, but it's a cheap item anyway. Also, don't forget that you cannot just go dropping shovels, tents, etc.... into a haversack. Anything placed inside needs to be something that would fit into a haversack in the first place, so that keeps things reasonable as well.
In our current campaign, much of this has been solved by the party magic-crafters creating "haversack" compartments in the Vardo owned by the Varisian Ranger. I think we dropped several thousand gold on that, but it gives us the option to keep all sorts of things in the vardo that are all easily accessible from any of the exterior or interior cabinets.
It also lets us keep fresh eggs and milk as we travel. LOL
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It's funny how some of you quote from the Extradimensional Spaces rules, but stop your quote right when they actually give an example that goes contrary to your idea of stuff spilling out.
Here's the entire quote:
Extradimensional Spaces
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
It does not say "if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick everything spills out and drowns you in the crap you carry with you" it says "becomes inaccessible till taken outside".
The first sentence in the quote makes it clear that BoH, HH and Rope Trick all use extradimensional spaces and doesn't make a distinction between them so it can be assumed they all work by the same rules (with the exception of BoH and PH interactions)
So why exactly does placing a BoH into a RT cause it to be inaccessible but placing it into a HH makes it spill out all over the place? If that was the case don't you think they would have mentioned that?
See it this way: The HH, BoH etc. are tiny gateways into a pocket dimension, or demi plane or whatever. If the magic is gone (inside another extradimensional space), then the gateway doesn't work anymore, but the stuff is not actually inside the bag, its still in another dimension. Just the door is locked.
It's funny how some of you quote from the Extradimensional Spaces rules, but stop your quote right when they actually give an example that goes contrary to your idea of stuff spilling out.
I believe it was me that provided said quote, but in another context than stuff spilling out (thus only provided what was relevant to the original question). However, I did provide the rest of the quote as well a few posts above :-)
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space.
Unless you house-rule, as I do, that if you put an extradimensional-space inside an extradimensional space, both items are destroyed as a rift is ripped in the fabric of reality, and you are sucked through into a random place.
My group rules that in addition to the contents becoming inaccessible, the haversack WEIGHTS as much as the contents (rather like how the the cursed item Loadstone works) when brought into an extradimentional space.
So if you tried to put one haversack inside another, all you'd accomplish is volume reduction.
If we take the "cut off from its interior" interpretation, this creates an interesting new ability: While the Haversack is non-functional, we suddenly have access to the mundane interior of the sack itself!
That's an interesting place to hide important objects
Almost like a lesser bag of holding.
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If you use this interpretation, make sure that your players' Bags of Holding which they store all their gold in also explodes. ;)So, do GMs in this thread remember to apply all this when a PC with a Haversack falls into the villain's create pit spell?A haversac full of alchemists fire. ;-)
My admitedly snarky point is that once GM's set up the physics there are ways for players to take advantage of them.
Player 1: Casts a pit spell under BBEG
Player 2: uses readied action to drop Bag of holding, haversac, etc into the pit full of alchemists fire.
Result: BBEG Flambe'
Players can and will take advantage of the rules no matter how they're set up. If a DM house rules favor the players everyone will be more happy.
The only interpretation that does not completely screw over anyone who falls into a Create Pit spell is that the items remain in the extradimensional space and the extradimensional space becomes accessible again when the sack is returned to normal space.
Per the above this is the best way to keep everyone having a good time. Just turn the bag off until it reaches normal space. Who cared if the player can carry 1M arrows. They can only use so many at a time.
Since the "ceases to function" rule is designed to do away with extradimensional space based doomsday devices it should probably be interpreted in the way that doesn't involve a massive explosion when a haversack full of alchemist's fire is dropped in a portable hole.
See my response above to matrixryu. ;-)
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Guys, guys, guys, you are looking at this the wrong way! When the extradimensional space is overloaded in such a fasion, yes, the items stored does spill out . . . but not in the material plane! They are scattered in the plane where the haversack (in this case) stored the items! Oops. You just lost two haversacks AND everything stored within them.
But then, I have been told I am an EVIL DM.
MA
so now the party must go to find their stuff in bag world!
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If you use this interpretation, make sure that your players' Bags of Holding which they store all their gold in also explodes. ;)So, do GMs in this thread remember to apply all this when a PC with a Haversack falls into the villain's create pit spell?A haversac full of alchemists fire. ;-)My admitedly snarky point is that once GM's set up the physics there are ways for players to take advantage of them.
Player 1: Casts a pit spell under BBEG
Player 2: uses readied action to drop Bag of holding, haversac, etc into the pit full of alchemists fire.Result: BBEG Flambe'
Players can and will take advantage of the rules no matter how they're set up. If a DM house rules favor the players everyone will be more happy.
You can do this without funky rules lawyering...its called turning the bag upside down and emptying the contents...probably a full round action.
Heck one game I used my Unseen Servants to carry a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding next to a dragon and put them inside each other. Easiest fight ever.
I stand corrected on how the magic of the haversack would cancel the stored haversack, per the rules.
(I still like the splodey haversack. *pouts*)
That said, with the extradimensional spaces, I think you would not save time by having a "haverstack" because you'd still have to retrieve the bag from the bag from the bag from the bag etc. to get what you needed. Even if it was one sack inside another, you'd have to retrieve it from the outer haversack (move action), then retrieve the haversack (move action)--and that's one turn in combat gone.
Probably simpler, although less amusing, is just to carry the bulk of the stuff you know you won't need immediately/in a pinch in an ordinary bag of holding, and keep the emergency/combat stuff in the haversack.
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And you can keep that bag in your haversack to save on weight.I stand corrected on how the magic of the haversack would cancel the stored haversack, per the rules.
(I still like the splodey haversack. *pouts*)
That said, with the extradimensional spaces, I think you would not save time by having a "haverstack" because you'd still have to retrieve the bag from the bag from the bag from the bag etc. to get what you needed. Even if it was one sack inside another, you'd have to retrieve it from the outer haversack (move action), then retrieve the haversack (move action)--and that's one turn in combat gone.
Probably simpler, although less amusing, is just to carry the bulk of the stuff you know you won't need immediately/in a pinch in an ordinary bag of holding, and keep the emergency/combat stuff in the haversack.
Is there agreement then that when stored inside a haversack, the BOH contributes is 15 to 60 lbs to the haversack load, not the current BOH load? And the net load on the character is only 5 lbs?