Winter Witch Progression (Hexes and Spells)

[Menelmacar]

Hey guys,
after having a look at the Winter Witch two questions arised:

First of all, the table says no spell progression on Level 1 of the Prestige Class. The text for Winter Witchcraft (which we gain at first level) however tells us:

Quote:

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, the effect of her hexes and other witch class abilities (including archetype abilities), the abilities of her witch's familiar, and the level at which she can select major hexes or grand hexes."

In my understanding the text suggests that my spells per day are determined by Witch Level + Winter Witch Level. There is no mention of the first level in the text.

The second question is about Hex Progression. While Winter Witchcraft tells us that as a Witch 7/Winter Witch 3 we qualify for Major Hexes there is no word whether we still get new hexes or not.
Balance wise it would be reaaaally strange if we still would get hexes when picking Winter Witch. If that's the case we would basically lose absolutely NOTHING and get all these bonus effects like Freeze and Thaw and EVEN MORE hexes.
So going by the wording of Winter Witchcraft, our hexes still improve their DC but we don't get new hexes (same would go for Archetype Abilities unlocked at certain levels, the ones we have continue to level with us, but I can't get a Level 10 Class Ability at Witch 7/WW 3). But, taking a look at "Bonus Hexes" we see:

Quote:

At 5th level and every two levels thereafter, a winter witch gains the following major hexes in addition to those gained from normal advancement:

IN ADDITION to normal advancement. In my oppinion this suggests you still get a new Hex every 2 Levels and those under Bonus Hexes in addition to that.

As I said, I know that would be pretty strange and would almost make the winter witch a must-have. But come to think of it.. What exactly is the "Ice Magic"-Class Feature?

[Winterwalker]

Menelmacar wrote:

Hey guys,

after having a look at the Winter Witch two questions arised:

First of all, the table says no spell progression on Level 1 of the Prestige Class. The text for Winter Witchcraft (which we gain at first level) however tells us:

Quote:

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, the effect of her hexes and other witch class abilities (including archetype abilities), the abilities of her witch's familiar, and the level at which she can select major hexes or grand hexes."

In my understanding the text suggests that my spells per day are determined by Witch Level + Winter Witch Level. There is no mention of the first level in the text.

Don't count the first level of the PrC for spells, count the rest from 2nd on and stack those with the archtype witch. You'll always have that 1 dead level.

p.s. Yes, they do stack, but +0 at level 1 of the PrC still equals +0 when you add that level to your total. :)

[Winterwalker]

RAW: you do not gain new hexes taking levels of the PrC, beyond what they already give you.

You do however stack your levels to determine what hexes you can learn. this comes into play when you take witch levels after winter witch PrC levels and then gaining a new hex, you may not be witch 10, but you are treated as such due to the WW PrC.

So you may only be a witch5/winterwitch5 and take a new level of plain old witch and qualify for 10th level hexes.

[Winterwalker]

The Ice magic class feature is an archtype granted ability from the Winter Witch Archtype.

Ice Magic:

Ice Magic

When a winter witch casts a spell with the cold descriptor, the save DC of the spell increases by +1. A winter witch cannot learn or cast spells with the fire descriptor at all.

[Benly]

Ice Magic is a feature of the winter witch archetype, meaning only witches of that archetype can enter the prestige class. The archetype replaces a hex and applies certain restrictions to your patron and familiar choices.

There's another, slightly less obvious cost to the Winter Witch PrC, which is that Hyperboreal Patronage replaces over half your patron list with spells that, other than Wall of Ice, aren't all that great. (Frozen Tomb is pretty good, but is also largely redundant with the Ice Tomb hex.)

[Menelmacar]

I do know that what you say comepletely makes sense but the text somewhat contradicts that. As I said, the text specifically says "Take Winter Witch Levels + Witch Levels to determine Spells per day" With that in mind (and it being a class ability), the column for Spell Progression isn't even necessary. The text doesn't say "Take Winter Witch Level -1 + Witch Level for Spells per day"

And to the hexes, that was my interpretation but here again it's the text with that "in addition to normal advancement" bit which just makes no sense like it's written there. There is no normal advancement for a Winter Witch if you say "No.. Winter Witches don't get Hexes any more". If that would be the case a wording like "As a substitute for the hexes a Winter Witch doesn't get to choose she gets the following hexes at Levels x, y and z"

Edit since I got ninja'ed:

So wait.. I take the Archetype Winter Witch to get to chose the PrC Winter Witch.. That's strange. But makes sense in a way.

[thejeff]

Benly wrote:

Ice Magic is a feature of the winter witch archetype, meaning only witches of that archetype can enter the prestige class. The archetype replaces a hex and applies certain restrictions to your patron and familiar choices.

There's another, slightly less obvious cost to the Winter Witch PrC, which is that Hyperboreal Patronage replaces over half your patron list with spells that, other than Wall of Ice, aren't all that great. (Frozen Tomb is pretty good, but is also largely redundant with the Ice Tomb hex.)

Does you lose the lower level spells with Hyperboreal Patronage? The text seem to say that you do.

Quote:

These replace any patron spells a winter witch might receive from a previous class.

Or do they just replace the equivalent level spells (starting at 3rd) if you already had them?

[Winterwalker]

Actually A winter witch archetype, does not need to take winter patron, so some of those spells might be a decent trade off.

[Darkorin]

This discussion already happened a few times, and i think the most important intervention is from the writer: as you can see here.

If you don't want to read it and just understand how the prestige class is supposed to work:

• you get all the hexes from your witch class as if you advanced normally in that class
• you get the bonus hexes and powers from the prestige class
• you don't gain any caster level at your first level in the prestige class

[Winterwalker]

Menelmacar wrote:

I do know that what you say comepletely makes sense but the text somewhat contradicts that. As I said, the text specifically says "Take Winter Witch Levels + Witch Levels to determine Spells per day" With that in mind (and it being a class ability), the column for Spell Progression isn't even necessary. The text doesn't say "Take Winter Witch Level -1 + Witch Level for Spells per day"

Don't over complicate it, take both levels and stack them, sure!

But don't forget that level one of the PrC does NOT add a spellcaster level. That's what it means by '-' under the spells per day section. You'll notice from level 2 on they do indeed add more power.

It's the price you pay to follow this PrC.

[Winterwalker]

Darkorin wrote:

This discussion already happened a few times, and i think the most important intervention is from the writer: as you can see here.

If you don't want to read it and just understand how the prestige class is supposed to work:

• you get all the hexes from your witch class as if you advanced normally in that class
• you get the bonus hexes and powers from the prestige class
• you don't gain any caster level at your first level in the prestige class

copy paste wrote:

Winter Witch Stuff

Hi all, I wrote the winter witch PrC. In my turnover I had the class with full caster progression and no extra hexes (just the preset ones). In other words the 'cost' of the Prestige class was the feats you would probably spend after getting into the prestige class to buy the Extra Hex feat. This is somewhere in between [-1 caster level, no hex progression] and [-1 caster level, hex progression + bonus hexes].

It got changed in development.

The wording isn't super clear but the Paizo team are aware of it and will errata it. I'm hoping for bonus hexes + hex progression (I suspect this was the developer's intent) but I know that this is quite good.

An intermediate solution might be to have hex progression but you have to choose the preset (bonus) hexes at those levels of the prestige class.

This does NOT support what you posted, in fact it's a complete opposite of RAW currently. Intent vrs. RAW, we are RAW right now.

[Darkorin]

Winterwalker wrote:

copy paste wrote:

Winter Witch Stuff

Hi all, I wrote the winter witch PrC. In my turnover I had the class with full caster progression and no extra hexes (just the preset ones). In other words the 'cost' of the Prestige class was the feats you would probably spend after getting into the prestige class to buy the Extra Hex feat. This is somewhere in between [-1 caster level, no hex progression] and [-1 caster level, hex progression + bonus hexes].

It got changed in development.

The wording isn't super clear but the Paizo team are aware of it and will errata it. I'm hoping for bonus hexes + hex progression (I suspect this was the developer's intent) but I know that this is quite good.

An intermediate solution might be to have hex progression but you have to choose the preset (bonus) hexes at those levels of the prestige class.

This does NOT support what you posted, in fact it's a complete opposite of RAW currently. Intent vrs. RAW, we are RAW right now.

Well, as you can see the wording of the sentence currently under judgement, is going the way the creator of the PrC wanted to go (Full CL progression, and you get no extra hex). The team afterward made some changes to it, but forgot to change that sentence which makes the confusion about the Full Caster level progression or not. Plus the Paizo team currently knows there is such a problem and that the wording isn't clear, so if you want to go RAW: "Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level" is quite clear... you go full CL progression which is in contradiction with the + Caster Level column.

So yeah... there are problems with this PrC and the Paizo team knows it. I just think that the author is in a better position than us to make a guess about what IS the mistake that was made when they released that PrC.

Maybe the mistake is in the Caster Level progression? Who knows!

[Winterwalker]

When it becomes eratta'd then it too can be RAW, until such time, no dice.

Though any DM can simply make RAI at his table sure, this is the RAW forum though and to quote someone 'RAW rules here'.

:)

[thejeff]

So what is RAW when 2 parts of the text conflict?

[blackbloodtroll]

Ask you RAW only DM about the Prone Shooter feat.

[Winterwalker]

thejeff wrote:

So what is RAW when 2 parts of the text conflict?

Explain what conflicts. If you mean caster level, there is none.

[Winterwalker]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ask you RAW only DM about the Prone Shooter feat.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, but sounds like this isn't on topic.

[Darkorin]

Winterwalker wrote:

Explain what conflicts. If you mean caster level, there is none.

Err... what do you call a contradiction between the text which specifies "Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level[...]" and the table of the PrC which specifies at which level you get a +1 arcane spellcaster level.

Right now you can't tell if the error is in the text or in the table!

[thejeff]

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, ..."

with the "-" for Spells per day in level 1 entry in the Winter Witch table.

Does the 1st level of the Winter Witch PRC stack with witch levels for Spells per Day? If it said "levels of the winter witch prestige class that grant '+1 level of witch class' stack" then the RAW would be clear. As it is, just from that I'd assume you got more spells at 1st level.

I'm not going to use the term "caster level" since that's something specific and doesn't necessarily cover when you get spells.

[Winterwalker]

thejeff wrote:

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, ..."

with the "-" for Spells per day in level 1 entry in the Winter Witch table.

Does the 1st level of the Winter Witch PRC stack with witch levels for Spells per Day? If it said "levels of the winter witch prestige class that grant '+1 level of witch class' stack" then the RAW would be clear. As it is, just from that I'd assume you got more spells at 1st level.

I'm not going to use the term "caster level" since that's something specific and doesn't necessarily cover when you get spells.

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels..."

Right!

Take the chart given for WW PrC, which starts at 0, then add your Witch levels and viola!

[Menelmacar]

Alright, sorry I didn't find the thread before, did a quick search but must have gone unnoticed.
But let's be honest:
If the Winter Witch PrC will work like the creator intended compared to a normal Witch I get:

+1 Hex in total (maybe this goes down to -1 compared to a normal witch, if taking the mentioned Hexes in the "Bonus Hex" ability becomes mandatory instead of your normal hex)[-1 for Archetype, +2(0) for PrC)
Cold Resist/Immunity [Archetype, traded against Level 4 Hex]

Boons like Freeze and Thaw, Blizzard Sight, basically all of the Winter Witches PrC Class Abilites

What's the trade off?
One Level of Spell Progression [Perhaps.. even that is debatable]
Limited choice of Familiars (which I could negate by taking Improved Familiar)
somehwat limited choice of Patron (and some of the patron spells are even swapped against others of the PrC, so it shouldn't be a big deal at all)

I really can't see how that could have gone unnoticed but it seems largely imbalanced compared to a normal witch.

Your thoughts on that?

[thejeff]

Winterwalker wrote:

thejeff wrote:

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, ..."

with the "-" for Spells per day in level 1 entry in the Winter Witch table.

Does the 1st level of the Winter Witch PRC stack with witch levels for Spells per Day? If it said "levels of the winter witch prestige class that grant '+1 level of witch class' stack" then the RAW would be clear. As it is, just from that I'd assume you got more spells at 1st level.

"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels..."

Right!
Take the chart given for WW PrC, which starts at 0, then add your Witch levels and viola!

What chart? That doesn't even make sense? If I'm a 5th level Witch and take my 1st level of Winter Witch, I add 1 to 5 and look at the 6th level of the Winter Witch chart? Which says '+1 level of witch class'? Huh?

If that language wasn't in the Winter Witchcraft section, then it would be clear. If the description had used the same language used in other spellcasting PrCs, it would be clear. "At the indicated levels" is the usual phrasing.
As it is, the RAW conflicts. The levels stack or you get +1 level at all but 1st.

Also interestingly, the other classes I looked at spell out "an increased effective level of spellcasting." Winter Witch does not. I'd have to say, by RAW, the Winter Witch's caster level is her Witch level.

[Winterwalker]

Assumption: Witch5 / Winter Witch 1

The confusion here, as I see it, is thinking that you can add WWPrC's dead spell level to a base Witch's spell level mechanic and be considered a level 6 baster level.

What the text says:
"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day"

Not for saying:
"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a witch's spells per day"

So start with the PrC of 0 spells at level 1, add Witch's 5 levels to get a caster level of 5.

That's the math explained a bit clearer. Hopefully. I mean, there's a fancy chart and everything right now on the WWPrC page, how can you try to spin that into a free caster level?

[Dark_Mistress]

Menelmacar wrote:

Alright, sorry I didn't find the thread before, did a quick search but must have gone unnoticed.

But let's be honest:
If the Winter Witch PrC will work like the creator intended compared to a normal Witch I get:

+1 Hex in total (maybe this goes down to -1 compared to a normal witch, if taking the mentioned Hexes in the "Bonus Hex" ability becomes mandatory instead of your normal hex)[-1 for Archetype, +2(0) for PrC)
Cold Resist/Immunity [Archetype, traded against Level 4 Hex]

Boons like Freeze and Thaw, Blizzard Sight, basically all of the Winter Witches PrC Class Abilites

What's the trade off?
One Level of Spell Progression [Perhaps.. even that is debatable]
Limited choice of Familiars (which I could negate by taking Improved Familiar)
somehwat limited choice of Patron (and some of the patron spells are even swapped against others of the PrC, so it shouldn't be a big deal at all)

I really can't see how that could have gone unnoticed but it seems largely imbalanced compared to a normal witch.

Your thoughts on that?

Well taking it as the author said in the other thread as how it really is. In that hexes keep coming but lose a caster level. Here is what the Winter Witch PrC gives up and gets.

Gives up
forced to take Hyperboreal Patron (solid patron but not great)
forced to take Winter Witch Archetype(when they could have taken another one, as it is not the best archetype)
Can never learn any fire based spell.
4th Level bonus Hex
Gives up 1 caster level

Gains
Ray of Frost as cantrip
+1 DC to all cold spells
Gain three preselected hexes (Hoarfrost, Ice Tomb, numbing chill)
Unnatural Cold, Unearthly Cold, Inexorable Cold.(makes cold based spells more effective)
Freeze and Thaw/Sculpt Ice and Snow/Blizzard Sight/Ice Glide - all neat abilities but in a arctic or winter condition they are very good but in other places of limited use.

Me personally I consider it a little bit stronger than the base witch but with a narrower focus.

[thejeff]

Winterwalker wrote:

Assumption: Witch5 / Winter Witch 1

The confusion here, as I see it, is thinking that you can add WWPrC's dead spell level to a base Witch's spell level mechanic and be considered a level 6 baster level.

What the text says:
"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day"

Not for saying:
"Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a witch's spells per day"

So start with the PrC of 0 spells at level 1, add Witch's 5 levels to get a caster level of 5.

That's the math explained a bit clearer. Hopefully. I mean, there's a fancy chart and everything right now on the WWPrC page, how can you try to spin that into a free caster level?

For the record: I'm not trying to spin it into anything. As a GM I'd rule it by the chart and as a player wouldn't even try to talk the GM into anything else. Without further errata, that's clearly RAI.

That's because I think the chart takes precedence over the phrasing in the Winter Witchcraft section. RAW conflict.

That section does not say anything about "spell levels" dead or otherwise. It just says "levels of the winter witch prestige class" and "witch levels". It doesn't even say "spellcasters levels", just levels. 1 level of Winter Witch. 5 levels of Witch. Stacks to 6. Then you look on the Witch chart because it's the only one there is.
I get that you're trying to reconcile them by introducing this idea that the 1st Winter Witch level doesn't count because it's a 0 spells level, but that's really stretching it, it seems to me.
It's much simpler to think the language is wrong. Especially since, the original developer intended full spell progression. Likely it just didn't get changed when the spell level was lost.

And there's no RAW to indicate caster level goes up as a Winter Witch. That's this caster level, not spells/day or other things usually tied to it. It specifically says spells/day and spells gained go up, but no mention of caster level.

[Winterwalker]

Oh, It's poorly worded yes. But again, by RAW, level 1 doesn't add more spells per day, or spells known, or caster levels, or effective levels of spellcasting.

I wonder if the designer assumed people wouldn't need that spelled out more clearly, but either way as presented, that little old '-' means it is not equal to the '+1 level of witch class.'

Other Classes that follow the same rules I am failing to communicate apparently:

Examples:

Arcane Archer

Dragon Disciple

Eldritch Knight

The 'core' PrC's that do grant full progression are the Loremaster, and Mystic Theurge.

[thejeff]

Winterwalker wrote:

Oh, It's poorly worded yes. But again, by RAW, level 1 doesn't add more spells per day, or spells known, or caster levels, or effective levels of spellcasting.

I wonder if the designer assumed people wouldn't need that spelled out more clearly, but either way as presented, that little old '-' means it is not equal to the '+1 level of witch class.'

Other Classes that follow the same rules I am failing to communicate apparently:

Examples:

Arcane Archer

Dragon Disciple

Eldritch Knight

The 'core' PrC's that do grant full progression are the Loremaster, and Mystic Theurge.

I absolutely get what the '-' means. I understand that the Chart intends to convey that level 1 adds no spellcasting ability. I also understand that the text in the Winter Witchcraft section says that it does. That's why they conflict.

Looking at the other PrCs that give partial progression they each say something very much like:

Quote:

At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

The full progression ones have something like:

Quote:

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

See the difference: "At the indicated levels"

The Winter Witch's text is the equivalent of using the Loremaster's phrasing for the Arcane Archer and claiming it's correct because the chart shows no spellcasting for those levels and therefore they don't count.

I'll also note again, that if you're playing strictly by RAW, which is the only point in having this discussion as the RAI is clear, that the winter witch's text does not have the equivalent of "an increased effective level of spellcasting", which appears in the other PrC caster classes descriptions. Thus, by RAW, a Winter Witch's caster level, for purposes of determining spell effects and the like is her Witch level.
This is also obviously not the intent.

[Dark_Mistress]

The official answer is in here.