Yo. I'm starting a new game soon with the new RotRL Anniversary book, and I'm revamping my house rules, which were written like four years ago, and I had the idea of incorporating the 'subabilities' from the 2e Player's Option (Skills & Powers) book. Here's how it breaks down:
Each attribute is divided into two sub-attributes. The character's score for a given attribute is multiplied by 2, then divided between the two sub-attributes.
-Strength
Stamina: Measurement of muscle efficiency and physical endurance.
Muscle: Measurement of sheer physical power.
*Reflection on physical appearance:
Stamina>Muscle: Wiry or toned
Muscle>Stamina: Bulging or well-defined muscles
-Dexterity
Aim: Represents hand-eye coordination and manual acuity.
Balance: Represents reflexes and overall agility.
-Constitution
Health: Measurement of hardiness, ability to resist diseases and other physical hardships.
Fitness: Measurement of overall physical condition, and ability to withstand physical punishment without succumbing to exhaustion.
-Intelligence
Reason: Represents capacity for learning and deduction.
Knowledge: Represents general level of education, grasp of languages, and ability to remember details.
-Wisdom
Intuition: Determines situational awareness, ability to think quickly under stress. Also measures social percipience, or the ability to 'read' people.
Willpower: Measurement of strength of will and ability to endure mental strain.
-Charisma
Leadership: Represents force of personality and ability to influence others' opinions.
Appearance: Represents physical presence and attractiveness.
I'm looking for ideas of how to incorporate this 'deeper' view of the ability mechanics into Pathfinder. A thought I've had is to have each sub-attribute affect different things, such as for Con, having the Health score determine the Hit Point bonus, while the Fitness score determines the Fortitude save bonus. Skills could also be divided between the various sub-attributes. I'll get on that when I have more time and see what can be assigned to what, and edit this post with my conclusions. I would sincerely appreciate any feedback on this idea in the meantime. Thanks! ~Fake
Ha! I was flipping through my Skills & Powers book less than a week ago!
Good luck, and I think Player's Option started the paving of the way (customizationally speaking, that is) for 3.x and, of course, Pathfinder. It even included alternate race traits like we've seen for APG and ARG. For the sub-attributes, though, I think you'd have to come up with a different method than +1/-1 and +2/-2 to make it really work. I remember min-maxing Strength scores to have a 20 Power but a 16...um, the other Strength....Anyway, I had a character who could deal ridiculous damage but couldn't carry much gear. Ahhh, reminiscing....
It could be as simple as offering an extra level of depth for the 'by the attributes' method of character description & development that I saw and loved in the AD&D 2e PHB, that laid out how a character with a 7 in one attribute isn't necessarily 'gimped', but rather presents a roleplaying challenge.
Pathfinder, though, like 3e before it, lends itself much better to min/maxing than the older editions, and this presents a shift in the character creation paradigm. Before, you were rolling 3d6 6 times, filling in the attributes -in order-, and only after you were done did you know what potential your character had, and that was -exciting-! Nowadays, having a few more total attribute bonuses than your fellow party members can, in the hands of a dedicated min/maxer, make that character unquestionably superior. To address this problem, point-buy is the rule of the day, and rolling for stats is a thing of the past.
4/5ths of my party is comprised of gamers of the old school, 2 of which haven't played 3e, much less Pathfinder, and already they're railing against the bewildering array of character creation options, remembering when things were simple, when you merely had to subtract your enemy's AC score from your THAC0, then subtract your total attack bonus, and...hey, wait a minute...
I've been playing 2nd ed for 22 years now. Started in 1990, and just left my 2nd ed game about a month ago. I'm fully Pathfinder now. I love this new(ish) system, but lets see if I can use my 2nd ed knowledge to give insight on how to translate S&P to PF.
Strength
Stamina: Measurement of muscle efficiency and physical endurance.
Muscle: Measurement of sheer physical power.
Stamina: Skills and Carrying capacity.
Muscle: To Hit and Damage.This balance will only work if you enforce armor penalties to skill checks, and weight limits. I enforce them in my game. As long as these are enforced strictly, I think the difference can work. Sure, you can hit more accurately and harder, but you can't climb, swim, or carry stuff. And remember: weapons and armor can get really heavy.
Dexterity
Aim: Represents hand-eye coordination and manual acuity.
Balance: Represents reflexes and overall agility.
Aim: Missile To Hit and Skills.
Balance: AC and Reflex.I know that "Aim" should only improve to hit, and "balance" should improve AC, Reflex, and Skills, but that leave too much room for unfavorable balance issues. Perhaps we can rename them Agility & Balance. And while "agility" (or aim) and "balance" would have different skills, AC and Reflex are very powerful, so all the skills should go with the other one. Missile to hit is only useful for ranged characters, but then they'd have to sacrifice AC and Reflex to get it.
Constitution
Health: Measurement of hardiness, ability to resist diseases and other physical hardships.
Fitness: Measurement of overall physical condition, and ability to withstand physical punishment without succumbing to exhaustion.
Health: HP.
Fitness: Fort Save.The average between the two determines the neg con for death.
Con is really easy, because it only effects three things.
Intelligence
Reason: Represents capacity for learning and deduction.
Knowledge: Represents general level of education, grasp of languages, and ability to remember details.
Reason: Spells & New Skill Points.
Knowledge: Skills & Language.I'm not sure how this balance will work out. Spells are very powerful for the specific classes, and getting new skill points is also very important, especially for the wizard. Then again, all their skills will have reduced bonuses, and they'll have fewer languages. I recommend enforcing language barriers with this style, or it'll make the knowledge stat less important. I usually enforce language barriers fairly strictly in my games. I also like to use a lot of dead languages while characters explore ruins, which makes languages like Thassilonian useful. In fact, every Golarian wizard I make has Thassilonian as a language, even though it's no longer spoken.
Wisdom
Intuition: Determines situational awareness, ability to think quickly under stress. Also measures social percipience, or the ability to 'read' people.
Willpower: Measurement of strength of will and ability to endure mental strain.
Intuition: Spells & Skills: Sense Motive, Perception.
Willpower: Will Save & Skills: Heal, Survival.Spells are important, but so are will saves. As there are only four Wisdom based skills, I figured an even split would make sense.
Charisma
Leadership: Represents force of personality and ability to influence others' opinions.
Appearance: Represents physical presence and attractiveness.
Leadership: Spells & Leadership Feat.
Appearance: Skills.Charisma in pathfinder is supposed to be more of force of personality and less of appearance, so perhaps we can change this to Personal Magnetism & Personality.
Editing complete.
Also, it seems to be adding extra spaces between lines that I can't control. Odd.
I just thought of something else; a problem unique to PF than the old system. Each stat bonus changes every 2 points, so a 15 strength (+2) could give a 16 stamina (+3) and a 14 muscle (+2). You get the advantages without the weakness.
Might want to change it so instead of changing the actual stat, you change the modifier by -1/+1 or -2/+2. The 2 point exchange might be too powerful.
I'd support this system.
Remember though that this system lends itself to yet more min/maxing and complications. (Also you have to consider feats with attribute prereqs)
As long as you trust your players to enjoy the roleplaying opportunities and they enjoy having more "variation" between two 18 STR warriors it should be fine.
Honestly though, I feel like there should be less stats in Pathfinder. Especially now that there are enough options to basically get rid of many stats as necessary. (Take a look at how these boards feel about Dervish Dancing for any weapon ._.)
Ooo. Feat prereqs. I would dictate that prereqs need to be met by the average between the two stats. So the Dodge feat, which required 13 dex, still requires at least a 13 average between the two substats.
Ooo. Feat prereqs. I would dictate that prereqs need to be met by the average between the two stats. So the Dodge feat, which required 13 dex, still requires at least a 13
average between the two substats.
Probably how you would have to work casting stats, too.
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I've mulled over something like this myself. I wondered if putting the stats into "tiers" would work. So if you go up one tier you must go down a tier too. Say you had a 14 (+2), you wanted to split it into sub-attributes. You would go up the min of the next highest tier to a 16 (+3) in one sub-attribute, and go down to the max of the next lowest tier a 13 (+1) in the other. It would be the same for an attribute of 15 too. Its not a great system, but would avoid the splitting a 15 for a +3, +2 like above.
Dexterity
Aim: Represents hand-eye coordination and manual acuity.
Balance: Represents reflexes and overall agility.
Aim: Missile To Hit and Skills.
Balance: AC and Reflex.
Actually the skills depend on whether they favor dexterity or agility. Aim for Disable Device/Sleigh of hand, but Balance for Acrobatics.
Constitution
Health: Measurement of hardiness, ability to resist diseases and other physical hardships.
Fitness: Measurement of overall physical condition, and ability to withstand physical punishment without succumbing to exhaustion.
Health: HP.
Fitness: Fort Save.
The average between the two determines the neg con for death.Con is really easy, because it only effects three things.
Actually, it should be the other way round.
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I think you actually don't need this many (sub-)attributes.
I have always favored the 8 attribute set as follows:
Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility,
Awarenes, Intelligence, Charisma, Willpower
I believe, by splitting DEX into Dexterity and Agility and WIS into Awareness (Perception & Insight) and Willpower you gain a very decent range of characteristics.
Just my 2 cents.
Draco, I understand the Wisdom split (as in - I know what both parts do), but what are the game specifics of Dexterity vs. Agility in your games? Just wondering.
I am german (if some of you still don't know ;) ) so I might have chosen an unclear name for it, but:
Dexterity: Everything concerning hand-eye coordination, steady hands, etc.
Agility: Everything concering overall-body coordination, balance, etc.
I've also considered splitting wisdom into wisdom & awareness, having spells & most wis skills go through wisdom, will saves through charisma, and initiative and perception through awareness. Never gotten around to playtesting it though.
Dexterity
Aim: Represents hand-eye coordination and manual acuity.
Balance: Represents reflexes and overall agility.
Aim: Missile To Hit and Skills.
Balance: AC and Reflex.
Actually the skills depend on whether they favor dexterity or agility. Aim for Disable Device/Sleigh of hand, but Balance for Acrobatics.
Well, like I said, AC and Reflex are really powerful, so if those are going into the same category, then we should probably be placing all the skills in the other one. Otherwise one category gets too powerful, and only missile fighters and rogues would take "Aim." I also suggested some renames instead of using "Aim."
If we distribute the skills appropriately, we'd end up with something like this:
Aim: Missile To Hit and Skills: Disable Device, Slight of Hand
Balance: AC, Reflex Save, and Skills: Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly(?), Ride, Stealth.
IMO, that makes the Balance sub-attribute too powerful.
Actually, it should be the other way round.Constitution
Health: Measurement of hardiness, ability to resist diseases and other physical hardships.
Fitness: Measurement of overall physical condition, and ability to withstand physical punishment without succumbing to exhaustion.
Health: HP.
Fitness: Fort Save.
The average between the two determines the neg con for death.Con is really easy, because it only effects three things.
That sounds right. Just pulled my S&P book off the shelf, and I did have it backward from S&P.
Health: Fort Save
Fitness: HP
I think you actually don't need this many (sub-)attributes.
I have always favored the 8 attribute set as follows:
Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility,
Awarenes, Intelligence, Charisma, Willpower
The OP asked us to find a way to recreate the 2nd Edition AD&D book Players Options: Skills & Powers. In S&P, each of the 6 attributes was broken down into two sub-attributes. This book here.
I believe, by splitting DEX into Dexterity and Agility and WIS into Awareness (Perception & Insight) and Willpower you gain a very decent range of characteristics.
That's a good idea, and I think it could work well, but it doesn't answer what the OP requested.
DracoDruid and Stringburka,
What do you use for determine attribute scores with your additional attributes? Roll for each one, or a modified version of the point buy system?
Personally, I'm a fan of the point buy system, so if you use that, I'd love to know how you incorporate it.
bookrat: I haven't used it yet, just thought about doing so. I think you could just increase point buys by 1/6th (or roll an additional time if that's what you prefer).
I've also considered dropping Charisma and Wisdom for Psyche (will saves except vs illusions, cha-skills, wis/cha spells) and Awareness (save vs. illusions, initiative, perception, survival), moving Heal to intelligence. It might be another way if you're up for that.
You could always go the trait rout.
Something like
-Strength
Stamina: Measurement of muscle efficiency and physical endurance.
Your strength counts as 2 higher when calculating lifting and carrying capacity.
Muscle: Measurement of sheer physical power.
+1 Trait Bonus when breaking barriers or objects.
-Dexterity
Aim: Represents hand-eye coordination and manual acuity.
+1 bonus on ranged attacks within the first range increment.
Balance: Represents reflexes and overall agility.
+2 trait bonus on acrobatics checks.
Just a couple ideas.
Dear god, so instead of just dumping Cha to 7, almost everyone dumps it to 7, then puts 11 points in personality and magnetism (no penalty!) and puts 3 into appearance (no penalty, because there are no mechanics attached to it!).
You'd be better off COMBINING stats, rather than splitting them. Like, (Con + Str = Physique), and (Wis + Cha = Psyche), so you'd have 4 stats total, and all of them would be important. MAD characters would feel the bite a lot less. It would be a hard decision for almost anyone to dump Psyche.
@ bookrat:
Well it's no big deal is it?
If you roll dice (btw: I hate rolling for abilities) you would simply roll two additional times and assign as usual.
If you use Point-Buy, you no longer have 6 but 8 abilities, an increase of 33%.
So you would simply increase the available points by 1/3:
15 = 20
20 = 26 or 27
25 = 33
30 = 40
Done.
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I also like the idea of putting WIS + CHA into Psyche/Resolve/Persona/Whatever and adding AWARENESS.
That's how the "Cortex System" (Firefly/Battlestar Galactica) has done it.
Dumping any of the 3 mental stats now would definitely hurt.
I like that.
(Boohoo, poor minmaxer...)
The sub-attribute system was broken as hell. Monumentally stupidly broken.
The sub-attribute system was broken as hell. Monumentally stupidly broken.
Easily the worst part of my favorite AD&D supplement.
I always resoundingly loved this particular rule. Was talking about it in a different forum earlier this week ^_^