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"CALL LIGHTNING
School evocation [electricity]; Level druid 3
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one or more 30-ft.-long vertical lines of lightning
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call down a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long, vertical bolt of lightning that deals 3d6 points of electricity damage. The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell's range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected.
You need not call a bolt of lightning immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed first. Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt. You may call a total number of bolts equal to your caster level (maximum 10 bolts)."
Now, there's two ways of reading this spell;
1. One round 1 you cast and R2 a LB comes down, but that doesn't cost you a standard action, and r3-? you can call another bolt, each as a standard actions.
OR
2. One round 1 you cast and R2 -? you can call a bolt, each as a standard action.
Option 2 has you losing a round.
I think it's Option 1, otherwise the spell really sucks.
Option 1 is the way I play it.
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Pretty sure it's:
Round 1, you cast.
Immediately before your turn on Round 2, a lightning bolt drops.
Round 2 (and each subsequent round), you can spend a standard action to call down another lightning bolt.
After reading the text more fully, I don't think you can call a bolt as a standard action on round 2 (which, in the example given, is the first round of the spell's duration). It says "each round after the first you may use a standard action to call a bolt".
Since round 2 is the first round of the spell's duration (the casting time isn't part of the duration), it's not "after the first" yet.
It's somewhat ambiguous though.
Thanks, that's what I thought. Maybe a dev will make an appearance and make my day.
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Immediately upon completion of the spell occurs just before your initiative comes up next, so if your Initiative is 15, the initial bolt goes off at '15.1', essentially. Then, on your turn on Initiative 15, and each turn thereafter, you can use a standard action to call a bolt.
Drachasor: You can't cast call lightning with your standard action, since it has a "1 round" casting time. The spell finishes casting just before your next round, just like a summon monster spell.
Immediately upon completion of the spell occurs just before your initiative comes up next, so if your Initiative is 15, the initial bolt goes off at '15.1', essentially. Then, on your turn on Initiative 15, and each turn thereafter, you can use a standard action to call a bolt.No. "Immediately" upon completion means IMMEDIATELY. If your initiative is 15 and you cast Call Lightning with your standard action,
You can't. Its casting time is one round.
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell."
So, it's a consensus? Everyone agrees it's option 1, not option2?
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Heh, reading the spell more closely now I don't now if we've been doing it right, but we have always done it like this.
Round 1 - you cast the spell as a full round action. (No lightning bolt comes)
Round 2 - x: You can use a standard action to call a lightning bolt.
Now that "immediately on completion of the spell" verbage is making me wonder.
But I seriously doubt it was the intention to to have two lightning bolts in round 2, or to have a lightning bolt hit in round 2 and still have a standard action left. I will be interested if the devs clarify.
My reading comes out with option 1:
You start the cast in round 1; at the very beginning of your turn in round 2, the first lightning bolt hits; you still have a standard action in round 2 to take but you can't call another bolt since it states you can only call one per round.
Kayerloth: It's a specific rule for spells with the "1 round" casting time. The action doesn't take longer, but the spell effect doesn't begin until your next turn.
This rule doesn't apply to spells with the actual full-round casting time (primarily metamagic'ed spontaneous spells).
Drachasor, I am not suggesting in any fashion that the potential for having two bolts in round two is overpowered.
It's just inconsistent and strikes me as a spell effect a game designer is highly unlikely to have intended.
Just as I consider it just as unlikely that the spell was designed with the idea that in round 2 you get a bolt AND a standard action but in all subsequent rounds you only get one or the other. It's just a weird concept for how the spell would work.
I have designed games and have designed custom spells and consider myself to have a bit of experience in game design. I would never design a spell to work either way described here. Both of them have a spell mechanic that is just weird to me.
The way we've always done it just seems the logical way. You spend a round casting, and then in every round until it runs out, you can either call a bolt or take a standard action. Simple, obvious, consistent. That's what I think was intended.
Drachasor, you are misunderstanding me. We did not "house rule it" at all, and most certainly did not make a specific decision to "make it weaker."
We all read it the same way, which I still think is the most logical way. You cast it in round 1 and every round thereafter you can essentially use your standard action to call a bolt down until the spell expires.
Perhaps the fact that my group is composed almost entirely of programmers, engineers and scientists plays into that reading, but that is how all of us have read the spell from day one. There was no attempt to "change" the spell because that's just how we all thought it worked.
And frankly I see no reason to change that now. The spell is mostly just a nice hedge for the caster to be able to have an option that does damage over multiple rounds from one spell.
Both of those are variants on my option 1, looks like.
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I am playing a druid sometimes at PFS and he uses Call Lightning a lot. I have always used it as the option 2.
I somehow doubt, just as Adamantine Dragon does, that intent was to zap Call Lightning two times in the first round, but it's very hard to guess what the developer meant RAI, altho by RAW it seems it strikes two times in the first round.
Malag
I agree with that interpretation, Drachasor.
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Both of those are variants on my option 1, looks like.Yes. I am pretty sure that as written it works like:
R1: Cast Call Lightning (1 round casting time)
R2: Free Lightning usage, other actions normal
R3+: Standard Action to call another bolt.Definitely could be written more clearly.
I should be clear here, R2 has a free Lightning, but you cannot use a standard action to call Lightning:
Round 1: Cast Call Lightning (1 round casting time)
Round 2: Free Lightning usage, other actions normal. Standard Action cannot be used for a bolt.
Round 3+: Standard Action to call another bolt.
Actually, no. On Round 2, you are certainly capable of using a standard action to call another bolt. The "free" bolt occurs prior to your turn in the second round, not on your second turn, as you seem to be implying.
Actually, no. On Round 2, you are certainly capable of using a standard action to call another bolt.
Round 2 is the first round of the spell's duration, and the spell says you can call a bolt as a standard action "each round after the first". Since this is the first round, you can't use a standard action to call a bolt.
I totally disagree here. The first round is the round you're casting the spell. You get a free bolt in round one (i.e. immediately before your turn). Then, on the second round, you can call down a lightning bolt as a standard action.
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Round 2 is the first round of the spell's duration, and the spell says you can call a bolt as a standard action "each round after the first". Since this is the first round, you can't use a standard action to call a bolt.
Still no.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Emphasis mine.
Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call...
The first bolt comes into existence immediately before your second round—this is literally at the end of the "1 round" casting time. You may then act normally in your second round, which includes calling a bolt as a standard action.
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I totally disagree here. The first round is the round you're casting the spell. You get a free bolt in round one (i.e. immediately before your turn). Then, on the second round, you can call down a lightning bolt as a standard action.
Spell-durations don't begin while you're casting the spell, so I don't see any way the text can possibly refer to the round of casting.
Besides, if it worked that way, why would the text even say "each round after the first"? It would have been easier (and less confusing) to simply say "each round".
In my opinion, the purpose of the text "each round after the first" is specifically to prevent 2 bolts within such a short time-span (just before your initiative count, then on your initiative count). Granted, it wouldn't be overpowering to allow the double-bolt, considering the spell is fairly weak either way, but I believe that's how it works as written.
Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call...The first bolt comes into existence immediately before your second round—this is literally at the end of the "1 round" casting time. You may then act normally in your second round, which includes calling a bolt as a standard action.
Don't stop after the first sentence of the spell. In paragraph two, after explaining what it means by the "immediately" for the first "free" bolt, the text goes on to say you can only call additional bolts as a standard action "each round after the first":
You need not call a bolt of lightning immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed first. Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt. You may call a total number of bolts equal to your caster level (maximum 10 bolts).
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Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call...The first bolt comes into existence immediately before your second round—this is literally at the end of the "1 round" casting time. You may then act normally in your second round, which includes calling a bolt as a standard action.Don't stop after the first sentence of the spell. In paragraph two, the text says you can only call a bolt as a standard action "each round after the first":
You need not call a bolt of lightning immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed first. Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt. You may call a total number of bolts equal to your caster level (maximum 10 bolts).
Right. And round 2 is one of those "each round after the first". This is merely telling you that if you want to call the additional bolts, you must do it as a standard action, unlike the very first bolt, which comes immediately at the very end of the first.
You're still wrong, and your quote merely enforces that point.
HangarFlying: Do you remove one round of duration for the round spent casting the spell? Assuming you don't, then why do you expect the spell's effect to refer to that round as the "first", rather than referring to its own first round of duration?
Spell-durations don't begin while you're casting the spell, so I don't see any way the text can possibly refer to the round of casting.
Spell durations start when the spell is cast. The spell is cast and completed in round 1, immediately before round 2 starts.
Besides, if it worked that way, why would the text even say "each round after the first"? It would have been easier (and less confusing) to simply say "each round".
No, because then people would be saying, why does it say each round? Can I call a bolt in the first round? Do I actually have a standard action available? What if I cast a quickened Call Lightning? Can I call one on the first round?
It's clarifying text, it's not portraying some secret meaning about when you can drop bolts.
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Are: what are you talking about? What is this "remove one round of duration"? If the caster starts casing call lightning on his initiative in round 1, the effect occurs immediately before his initiative count in round 2, and uses up one round of duration for the spell. On his initiative count in round 2, the caster may act normally—which includes calling another bolt as a standard action. Whether or not he calls a bolt, a second round of duration is consumed. On his initiative count in round 3, the caster may use a standard action to call a third bolt, and three rounds of duration have been consumed so far. On round 4, four rounds of duration; round 5, five rounds of duration, and so forth.
It seems as though you think the first bolt occurs on the caster's initiative count in round 2. This is false. It occurs immediately before the caster's initiative count in round 2—which, for that caster, is at the very end of his round 1.
Are: what are you talking about? What is this "remove one round of duration"?
I'm referring specifically to the fact that you and mplindustries seem to suggest that the "first" in the spell's wording "each round after the first" applies to the round in which the spell is cast, rather than to the spell's first round of duration (which, in the example given, is round 2, since the spell comes into effect just before your initiative count during round 2).
I don't see how it's possible to suggest that "each round after the first" applies to the casting round, without also suggesting that the spell's duration begins in that round (which it doesn't).
LOL, this sort of thing cracks me up. I am pretty sure I know exactly what happened and it's simply a case of whoever wrote the spell's description over-thought the thing.
I will continue to run it as "one round to cast the spell, use a standard action, if desired, to pull down a bolt any subsequent round until it expires".
It cracks me up when this sort of thing happens. And it happens more than you might think.
And this is why it happens. The devs know that every rule is going to eventually be put under the sort of rigorous rhetorical and semantic scrutiny that normally is reserved for reviewing Higgs Boson experimental results. So they go crazy trying to out-think the rules lawyers and tie themselves up in rhetorical knots.
Let's use real initiative counts here, ok? Let's say the Druid has an initiative of 20. I'll refer to rounds as A, B, C, etc. So, round 1 is 20A, round 2 is 20B, etc.
If you cast a spell on 20A, round 1 of the effect lasts from 20A-20B, yes? So, when you cast Call Lightning, round 1 is from 20A-20B. The first lightning drops immediately before 20B, and then 20B begins round 2.
Let's use real initiative counts here, ok? Let's say the Druid has an initiative of 20. I'll refer to rounds as A, B, C, etc. So, round 1 is 20A, round 2 is 20B, etc.
If you cast a spell on 20A, round 1 of the effect lasts from 20A-20B, yes? So, when you cast Call Lightning, round 1 is from 20A-20B. The first lightning drops immediately before 20B, and then 20B begins round 2.
Sure, let's use real initiative counts. The way I see it:
Initiative 20 - Druid spends full round action to cast the spell.
Initiative 20.1 - The spell comes into effect. The first round of its duration begins. The druid can call the first bolt immediately, or can wait to perform other actions first, as the spell says he can do.
Initiative 20 - The druid can perform actions, but can't call a second bolt, as the spell is still in its first round of duration.
Initiative 20.1 - The spell's second round of duration begins.
Initiative 20 - The druid can call a bolt as a standard action.
Either way, I think I've spent enough time debating this spell's quirks. Especially considering I think it's fairly weak using either interpretation. So, play it however you wish :)
Going by your count, I can see the issue. You are thinking the spell comes into effect immediately after your initiative on round 2 (20.1), but it actually comes into effect immediately before (19.9).
Going by your count, I can see the issue. You are thinking the spell comes into effect immediately after your initiative on round 2 (20.1), but it actually comes into effect immediately before (19.9).
No, initiative 20.1 is immediately before 20, just like initiative 21 is before 20. That's why I wrote it before, rather than after..
Going by your count, I can see the issue. You are thinking the spell comes into effect immediately after your initiative on round 2 (20.1), but it actually comes into effect immediately before (19.9).No, initiative 20.1 is immediately before 20, just like initiative 21 is before 20. That's why I wrote it before, rather than after..
D'oh! Brain fart.
Ok, so then how are you counting duration rounds wrong, then? You are not counting round 1 until the round after the spell is cast--why? Round one of any spell effect is the round in which it is cast.
Ok, so then how are you counting duration rounds wrong, then? You are not counting round 1 until the round after the spell is cast--why? Round one of any spell effect is the round in which it is cast.
No, round 1 of the spell's duration is the round in which it comes into effect. For a spell with a "1 round" casting time, the spell's duration begins just before your turn in round 2. The duration doesn't begin at the end of your previous turn.