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Simple question, can you deliver a touch spell through a natural attack? That is to say, I cast a touch spell (say shocking grasp), make a regular attack with a natural weapon (say a claw or bite) and if you hit, in addition to the damage from the natural weapon, deal the damage from the touch spell.
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Yes. And here's why:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Read it and weep (tears of joy, that is..).
Darksol is correct, but remember that you can only do this once you're holding the charge, which happens at the end of the round in which you cast the spell. You cannot use a natural weapon for the free touch attack granted by casting the spell.
A sorcerer, for example, could cast Shocking Grasp, make his free touch attack, and if he missed, he holds the charge. Next round he could make a regular attack (or full-attack) with his draconic claws, against normal AC, and the first attack that hits also discharges the shocking grasp.
Also note JJ has stated using a spell in this way is limited to once per round unless the spell has wording to indicate it is "weapon like" (ie flaming blade, etc).
You crit on the natural/unarmed attack. The spell effect is "extra."
Also note JJ has stated using a spell in this way is limited to once per round unless the spell has wording to indicate it is "weapon like" (ie flaming blade, etc).
No, he didn't. What he said was in regards to the touch attacks granted by Produce Flame, which isn't even a touch spell. His ruling is that making touch attacks can only happen once per round (standard action to touch, basically).
The OP is not talking about making touch attacks, he's talking about making natural attacks and delivering a held charge through them. Since you can (in many cases) make multiple natural attacks or unarmed strikes per turn, if you miss, the spell doesn't discharge, which means when you finally hit, the spell does discharge.
If the unarmed/natural weapon attack is a Crit, do you apply the Crit multiplier to the Touch Spell damage as well or treat it as extra damage (eg. Flaming Weapon)?
The rules don't say. Damaging touch attacks can crit (20/x2) so I would say it works like Spellstrike, if the natural weapon crits, the spell effect also crits. Using the weapon's crit range (usually 20) but the spells crit multiplier (always x2). I think this is the intent, and the rules just didn't cover it since you almost never see it happen.
No, he didn't. What he said was in regards to the touch attacks granted by Produce Flame, which isn't even a touch spell. His ruling is that making touch attacks can only happen once per round (standard action to touch, basically).
The OP is not talking about making touch attacks, he's talking about making natural attacks and delivering a held charge through them. Since you can (in many cases) make multiple natural attacks or unarmed strikes per turn, if you miss, the spell doesn't discharge, which means when you finally hit, the spell does discharge.
This is what he stated later on in that same thread:
"It's a spell, and should therefore function similarly to other touch spells like chill touch. Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)"It would seem that he implies strongly that touch attacks are supposed to "go off" once per round as they don't give "iterative" attacks. Unfortunately as others in the same thread have stated, RAW doesn't back up the RAI in this manner. But we have intent from the game company crew.
If the unarmed/natural weapon attack is a Crit, do you apply the Crit multiplier to the Touch Spell damage as well or treat it as extra damage (eg. Flaming Weapon)?The rules don't say. Damaging touch attacks can crit (20/x2) so I would say it works like Spellstrike, if the natural weapon crits, the spell effect also crits. Using the weapon's crit range (usually 20) but the spells crit multiplier (always x2). I think this is the intent, and the rules just didn't cover it since you almost never see it happen.
Touch attacks are specifically called so they can crit (as are rays), but if you aren't using it as a standard action to touch specifically to deliver the attack with its own roll, that capacity is removed. The spell isn't making the attack roll, that spell effect cannot crit without a roll (unless there is some other ability to allow it to). You are rolling to attack with the natural weapon, so that natural weapon crits and does extra damage, as an added benefit that charge you were "holding" goes off as well.
You can say it works like spellstrike, but it doesn't because it doesn't explicitly say it works that way. Spellstrike is a specific exception to the general rule, as it is an exception that means it doesn't normally work that way, right?
Quite honestly it doesn't really matter as a creature normally cannot use its natural weapon more than once in around anyways, I was just posting additional information about touch spells on the off chance something like an AoO comes up where that attack is used multiple times in one round and the touch attack not working like a weapon like spell effect came up.
It would seem that he implies strongly that touch attacks are supposed to "go off" once per round as they don't give "iterative" attacks.
Right. We're not talking about iterative touch attacks. We're talking about iterative unarmed strikes, or multiple natural attacks. Both of which are perfectly legal.
Making two touch attacks as a full-attack, against touch AC, and discharging chill touch each one that hits is not RAI (and possibly not RAW).
Making two unarmed strikes as a full-attack, against normal AC, and discharging chill touch with each one that hits is RAW and RAI.
Quite honestly it doesn't really matter as a creature normally cannot use its natural weapon more than once in around anyways, I was just posting additional information about touch spells on the off chance something like an AoO comes up where that attack is used multiple times in one round and the touch attack not working like a weapon like spell effect came up.
If you try to touch, miss, and hold the charge, then someone provokes, you can touch them with your attack of opportunity.
A spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell counts as being armed. "Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)."
Right. We're not talking about iterative touch attacks. We're talking about iterative unarmed strikes, or multiple natural attacks. Both of which are perfectly legal.
Making two touch attacks as a full-attack, against touch AC, and discharging chill touch each one that hits is not RAI (and possibly not RAW).
Making two unarmed strikes as a full-attack, against normal AC, and discharging chill touch with each one that hits is RAW and RAI.
Besides the RAW out of the book, is there a thread where it is backed up? I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to clear it up. I didn't like the ruling in that thread and the implication that we are unable to use the touch spell multiple times. I would love a thread where it is confirms that it is indeed RAI as RAW seems to be off on these topics (as that thread showed). Yes it was about Produce Flame, but it touched on other touch attacks/holding the charge rules enough that it might be otherwise.
In 3.5 I wouldn't have a problem, I know it worked that way. Now with PFRPG enough things have "changed" while the wording has stayed the same. They are pushing for staying in class and not favoring muliclass rules wise (and intent has been said to make single class characters more attractive). What is to say that limiting the ability to release spells via natural/IUS wasn't actually intended changed with a copy/paste of the rules. JJ's wording has definitely thrown the shadow of doubt on it for me.
Quite honestly it doesn't really matter as a creature normally cannot use its natural weapon more than once in around anyways, I was just posting additional information about touch spells on the off chance something like an AoO comes up where that attack is used multiple times in one round and the touch attack not working like a weapon like spell effect came up.
If you try to touch, miss, and hold the charge, then someone provokes, you can touch them with your attack of opportunity.A spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell counts as being armed. "Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)."
I understand that, however if the implication is that they can be unleased once per round, then if it is released earlier in the round from an AoO it wouldn't be available later to use on the characters normal attack routine.
Besides the RAW out of the book, is there a thread where it is backed up?
Basically, nothing in the rules states you can (or cannot) make iterative (or two-finger fighting) touch attacks. Some people assumed they work just like melee attacks, and JJ said they don't.
I didn't like the ruling in that thread and the implication that we are unable to use the touch spell multiple times.
Remember, JJ was only talking about touch attacks. Not about other kind of attacks that deliver held charges.
however if the implication is that they can be unleased once per round
I have never seen this implication. You can make one touch attack per round, by touching something as a standard action. You can't make two (at a penalty) by using a full-attack action and the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, or with a full-attack while under Haste, or due to high BAB. That doesn't have anything to do with delivering the spell, only with the action required to make that type of attack.
Basically, the limitation is on the type of attack you make, not on what happens when that attack succeeds.
The problem is most touch spells only happen once. You get one zap from a shocking grasp and that's it. Spells like Chill Touch have long been misunderstood, and it's only recently that we've had any kind of guidance on how they work. (Many people thought Chill Touch gave you caster-level attacks on the round you cast it, and none after that)
If the unarmed/natural weapon attack is a Crit, do you apply the Crit multiplier to the Touch Spell damage as well or treat it as extra damage (eg. Flaming Weapon)?definitely not. only the weapon damage is modified by the critical.
there is a class called magus that has an ability to apply crit multipliers to spells. i havent looked further than that, but it's possible there is a feat that might do something similar. or another class-specific ability.
Do you think they have been waiting 9+ years for your answer?
9+ years, and he's also wrong.
if the nat attack \ unarmed is a crit the spell is a crit too. there is nothing in the rules that remove the the rule of spell criting just because the touch was delivered via attack.
magus get to use any one handed weapon to deliver the spell and use it's crit range for the spell, which is different.
the spell in question would use normal spell crit (as in 20 only). unless improved crit can be applied to it (you can take improved critical (rays) so maybe this too).