|
I'm sorry if this question has already been answered, but I searched for some time and couldn't find a conclusive answer.
Let's say a sixth level character takes six temporary negative levels and dies. Can he be raised again even though raise dead give you more negative levels? I can see a few possible answers to this, and possibly more than one will work.
1) The dead character rolls a Fort save the next day to see if the negative levels become permanent. If enough of them go away, he can be raised by raise dead like normal.
2) The raise dead has to be cast in combination with a restoration (or greater) to get rid of the excess negative levels.
3) The character is raised, but takes a con drain like a 1st level character that cannot afford to take the negative levels.
4) Since they're temporary, they just go away when you are raised from the dead.
I'm positive #2 works, because it specifically says it works with permanent negative levels ( http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#energy-drain-and-negative- levels ) but is this the only way?
But #2 leads to problems as it says restoration must be cast the next round. But it has a casting time of one minute. Do you need two clerics and good timing to raise someone in this manner? Is there a way around this method? Is there an official ruling on any of this?
Thanks in advance!
|
"Energy Drain and Negative Levels
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life."
|
|
Well, it says that permanent levels remain, but it fails to mention temporary negatives levels at all. One might assume they go away, but I can't find anything that says they do.
If I say that I like cheese, it doesn't mean that I dislike chicken. Likewise, if they say that permanent levels remain, it doesn't necessarily mean that the temporary ones disappear. It seems odd either way that they don't specify.
If they did just disappear, then a 20th level character with 19 negative levels might very well decide to kill himself and be raised up again. Seems odd that dying could possibly advantageous. But, this could very well be the case.
Let's say a sixth level character takes six temporary negative levels and dies. Can he be raised again even though raise dead give you more negative levels? I can see a few possible answers to this, and possibly more than one will work.
1) The dead character rolls a Fort save the next day to see if the negative levels become permanent. If enough of them go away, he can be raised by raise dead like normal.
This way so nobody gets away from thier negative levels. But HOW did the character GET those negative levels? The character may be rising as an undead 1d4 rounds after death if it was a wight or specter that dealt out the negative levels. 1d4 days after death if it was a vampire.
|
|
If they did just disappear, then a 20th level character with 19 negative levels might very well decide to kill himself and be raised up again. Seems odd that dying could possibly advantageous. But, this could very well be the case.
What...? I don't understand your logic here. 1 restoration gets rid of all temporary negative levels. Dying gets rid of all temporary negative levels but bringing you back gives you PERMANENT negative levels. Why would you kill yourself and then still have to cast restoration when you could cast restoration and have the same effect without dying?
Restoration takes a long time to cast, and is not suitable for combat, but I do think that killing yourself was not the intent, and if a GM forced someone to make the save anyway I would understand.
Restoration
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric 4, paladin 4
Casting Time 1 minute
While not specifically RAW, you could assume that the casting of Restoration puts the target into a kind of state of grace, so if the casting begins on the next round they don't die again even though they'll have to wait a full minute before the negative levels go away.
Otherwise, t would be impossible, since Restoration requires a creature, not a corpse, as a target. You can't even start casting Restoration on a corpse, so issues of timing them precisely are moot.
I think that one slipped through the cracks. For a person that is being returned from the dead I would just make the grace period 1 minute.
|
|
I can't believe you are arguing the very definitions of the words Temporary and Permanent...
I'm just asking how temporary is temporary. I think this is a valid question. There's nothing in the description of temporary negative levels (or in the description of death) that say they go away if you die. If I'm wrong, correct me.
This way so nobody gets away from thier negative levels. But HOW did the character GET those negative levels? The character may be rising as an undead 1d4 rounds after death if it was a wight or specter that dealt out the negative levels. 1d4 days after death if it was a vampire.
A vampire. Yeah, time is of the essence. We don't have enough time to go back to town and get some higher level spells. One character is dead, and another isn't far behind.
While not specifically RAW, you could assume that the casting of Restoration puts the target into a kind of state of grace, so if the casting begins on the next round they don't die again even though they'll have to wait a full minute before the negative levels go away.
Otherwise, t would be impossible, since Restoration requires a creature, not a corpse, as a target. You can't even start casting Restoration on a corpse, so issues of timing them precisely are moot.
Good point. I'll assume they meant that you have to begin casting restoration next round.
What...? I don't understand your logic here. 1 restoration gets rid of all temporary negative levels. Dying gets rid of all temporary negative levels but bringing you back gives you PERMANENT negative levels. Why would you kill yourself and then still have to cast restoration when you could cast restoration and have the same effect without dying?
OK, so maybe for 20th level characters, the point is moot. But our 6th level party doesn't have access to restoration. Right now they have Raise Dead via Ultimate Mercy. So if someone has a bad fort save they might be keeping 5 temporary negative levels for some time (this can be pretty dangerous, especially with undead running around). But if they die and get raised, they have two permanent levels. Some of the players were considering this in our last game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, so maybe for 20th level characters, the point is moot. But our 6th level party doesn't have access to restoration. Right now they have Raise Dead via Ultimate Mercy. So if someone has a bad...
In my entirely personal opinion, player choices that (temporarily) kill their character for some numerical benefit are so disgustingly cheezy that I would encourage any DM to throw a wrench in their plans and make things go sideways when its attempted, just on principle. But I'm sure some will manage to disagree.
#1 and #2 both work. You either have to wait until one or more of the negative levels is gone, or heal one or more of the negative levels directly after raising the character.
|
I can't believe you are arguing the very definitions of the words Temporary and Permanent...I'm just asking how temporary is temporary. I think this is a valid question. There's nothing in the description of temporary negative levels (or in the description of death) that say they go away if you die. If I'm wrong, correct me.
This way so nobody gets away from thier negative levels. But HOW did the character GET those negative levels? The character may be rising as an undead 1d4 rounds after death if it was a wight or specter that dealt out the negative levels. 1d4 days after death if it was a vampire.A vampire. Yeah, time is of the essence. We don't have enough time to go back to town and get some higher level spells. One character is dead, and another isn't far behind.
While not specifically RAW, you could assume that the casting of Restoration puts the target into a kind of state of grace, so if the casting begins on the next round they don't die again even though they'll have to wait a full minute before the negative levels go away.
Otherwise, t would be impossible, since Restoration requires a creature, not a corpse, as a target. You can't even start casting Restoration on a corpse, so issues of timing them precisely are moot.
Good point. I'll assume they meant that you have to begin casting restoration next round.
What...? I don't understand your logic here. 1 restoration gets rid of all temporary negative levels. Dying gets rid of all temporary negative levels but bringing you back gives you PERMANENT negative levels. Why would you kill yourself and then still have to cast restoration when you could cast restoration and have the same effect without dying?OK, so maybe for 20th level characters, the point is moot. But our 6th level party doesn't have access to restoration. Right now they have Raise Dead via Ultimate Mercy. So if someone has a bad...
7*4*10=280g for a casting of Restoration from your local Cleric. Thats the cheapest route to getting it fixed. Or don't fail your save at 24 hours when the permanent level hits.
...I can't believe you are arguing the very definitions of the words Temporary and Permanent...I'm just asking how temporary is temporary. I think this is a valid question. There's nothing in the description of temporary negative levels (or in the description of death) that say they go away if you die. If I'm wrong, correct me.
This way so nobody gets away from thier negative levels. But HOW did the character GET those negative levels? The character may be rising as an undead 1d4 rounds after death if it was a wight or specter that dealt out the negative levels. 1d4 days after death if it was a vampire.A vampire. Yeah, time is of the essence. We don't have enough time to go back to town and get some higher level spells. One character is dead, and another isn't far behind.
While not specifically RAW, you could assume that the casting of Restoration puts the target into a kind of state of grace, so if the casting begins on the next round they don't die again even though they'll have to wait a full minute before the negative levels go away.
Otherwise, t would be impossible, since Restoration requires a creature, not a corpse, as a target. You can't even start casting Restoration on a corpse, so issues of timing them precisely are moot.
Good point. I'll assume they meant that you have to begin casting restoration next round.
What...? I don't understand your logic here. 1 restoration gets rid of all temporary negative levels. Dying gets rid of all temporary negative levels but bringing you back gives you PERMANENT negative levels. Why would you kill yourself and then still have to cast restoration when you could cast restoration and have the same effect without dying?OK, so maybe for 20th level characters, the point is moot. But our 6th level party doesn't have access to restoration. Right now they have Raise Dead via Ultimate Mercy. So
Assuming your local cleric is 7th level, which is far from given...
Temporary negative levels are not permanent until you fail your fort save. Once you fail your fort save you are stuck with them until you can get them removed via magic.
|
|
In my entirely personal opinion, player choices that (temporarily) kill their character for some numerical benefit are so disgustingly cheezy that I would encourage any DM to throw a wrench in their plans and make things go sideways when its attempted, just on principle. But I'm sure some will manage to disagree.
I definitely agree that this is cheesy as Chicago deep-dish.
#1 and #2 both work. You either have to wait until one or more of the negative levels is gone, or heal one or more of the negative levels directly after raising the character.
This was my first impression as well. Thanks for the feedback.
7*4*10=280g for a casting of Restoration from your local Cleric. Thats the cheapest route to getting it fixed. Or don't fail your save at 24 hours when the permanent level hits.
When the nearest town is several days away and only has a fifth level cleric and the dead party member was killed by a vampire, this can lead to some issues.
Assuming your local cleric is 7th level, which is far from given...
Exactly.
Temporary negative levels are not permanent until you fail your fort save. Once you fail your fort save you are stuck with them until you can get them removed via magic.
Well, temporary ones never become permanent, right? Or did they errata this?
"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
Temporary negative levels are not permanent until you fail your fort save. Once you fail your fort save you are stuck with them until you can get them removed via magic.Well, temporary ones never become permanent, right? Or did they errata this?
"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
Since this dead thread was just linked to I'll note that the specific Bestiary rules for energy drain say:
"If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save. On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent."