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Just out of curiosity, what is the effectiveness of poisons at higher levels? To give a more in depth question lets have a hypothetical character with the following build. If you have a better poisoner please feel free to post the build because as I said this is just for general effectiveness of poison.
Ratfolk Plague Bringer, Internal Alchemist 6/Daggermark Poisoner 4
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16+2+2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Alchemist 1: Sharp Claws
Alchemist 2: Discovery: Improved Unarmed Strike
Alchemist 3: Adder Strike
Alchemist 4: Discovery: Concentrate Poison
Alchemist 5: Master Alchemist
DPoisoner 1:
DPoisoner 2: Weapon Focus (Claws), Toxic Trick: Toxic Magic (pernicious poison)
DPoisoner 3:
DPoisoner 4: Feral Combat (Claws), Toxic Trick: Combine Poison
Alchemist 6: Discovery: Mutagen
So I can craft any poison using its pp value instead of its sp value to determine work done and I can create a number of doses per day equal to twice my Int modifier. So having Poisons on hand is a non issue. In addition I can apply one dose of poison to both of my claws as a swift action thanks to Feral Combat Training and Adder Strike.
So If I apply a concentrated poison to both claws via Adder Strike and hit with both attacks the target takes a -4 to its save versus poison. Now if I hit it with Pernicious Poison prior to doing so the target now takes a -4 for a cumulative -8 to saves vs the poison. In addition if they hit me in melee while I have my Plague Vial up and they fail there Fort save they gain the sickened condition which carries a -2 penalty on saving throws.
So the attack actions would look like the following.
Round 1: Move to enemy and provoke AoO (assume the enemy fails fort save), use Pernicious Poison SLA, swift action poison both claws via Adder Strike.
Round 2: Full attack with both claws (assume both hit)
So the target in the above scenario takes a -10 on poison saves, but how good will this be at higher levels? I know you can get this negative even higher but i think this is the shortest/most efficient way for a single character.
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It will not be as good. Because if you look in the book, I think they list poison DCs. So, if you were a 10th level character, the save for your poison would be a DC 26. With stats such as those you can have either a big problem or you'll be just fine. Because if you have a Power Gaming party (like my group) a DC 26 is a no brainer. However, if you are in a normal group a DC 26 is something to be worried about, so, with this build I would say it would depend on your group.
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It will not be as good. Because if you look in the book, I think they list poison DCs. So, if you were a 10th level character, the save for your poison would be a DC 26. With stats such as those you can have either a big problem or you'll be just fine. Because if you have a Power Gaming party (like my group) a DC 26 is a no brainer. However, if you are in a normal group a DC 26 is something to be worried about, so, with this build I would say it would depend on your group.
Sorry, this isn't for an enemy. I meant how would this work well against enemies that a party comes across while adventuring.
You can check this to see how monster saves scale with levels.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agyi5tgUTatCdHFjS05Kb18xVGd2bT Zhak5YaGQtMFE#gid=3
A question. Are these the same statistics that are in the back of the Bestiary.
Most poisons are vicious when they work, but their save DCs are abyssmal (13-18, rarely ever going higher than that.)
In other words, they'll work really well on that NPC who doesn't have any sort of class levels, but against leveled NPCs or monsters, I wouldn't expect anyone to be failing their saves.
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Most poisons are vicious when they work, but their save DCs are abyssmal (13-18, rarely ever going higher than that.)
In other words, they'll work really well on that NPC who doesn't have any sort of class levels, but against leveled NPCs or monsters, I wouldn't expect anyone to be failing their saves.
Yeah, that seems like a HUGE problem. Which is why I set out to see if I could lower the resistance (-10 as shown above) to hopefully see if they may be more useful.
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Odraude: someone with too much free time took information from all the stat blocks from all the creatures in bestiaries 1-3 to make this.
So while the table in the back of the bestiary indicates what a monster of a given CR should probably have, these tables tell you what happens in practice.
I haven't compared to see if they line up.
The problem is really one of time. As much as I'm an opponent of purely math based answers, it really shows in this case. Unfortuately I don't know a lot about the classes listed, but generally speaking, getting your poison out is a move action, applying it is a standard action, then you get 1 attack with it. If you spent 1500gp your DC is 26 at 10th level that's about a 50% chance to effect the monster. So it fails 1 save, takes 1d3 STR damage, then saves, fails takes 1d3 then saves and is cured. That's an average of 3 poitns of STR damage, or -1 to attack and damage. It took 1500gp and a full round action (move and standard) to get a monster -1 to attack and damage. That doesn't really seem worth it to me.
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The problem is really one of time. As much as I'm an opponent of purely math based answers, it really shows in this case. Unfortuately I don't know a lot about the classes listed, but generally speaking, getting your poison out is a move action, applying it is a standard action, then you get 1 attack with it. If you spent 1500gp your DC is 26 at 10th level that's about a 50% chance to effect the monster. So it fails 1 save, takes 1d3 STR damage, then saves, fails takes 1d3 then saves and is cured. That's an average of 3 poitns of STR damage, or -1 to attack and damage. It took 1500gp and a full round action (move and standard) to get a monster -1 to attack and damage. That doesn't really seem worth it to me.
That sure sounds like it sucks. Glad I asked this question before spending anytime making serious character around this build.
Can't alchemists get something that lets each dose of poison last for three attacks?
The Sticky Poison Discovery, yes. But it can be more than 3. It's dependent on their intelligence mod.
If you want to make poison work you have to have some ability to create such effects without gp input.
Class: Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist)
Level: 7th
Race: Vishkanya (Advanced Races)
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 13 (+1 @ 4th Level)
WIS: 10
CHA: 13
Feats
1st Level: Sleep Venom (Vishkanya)
3rd Level: Ability Focus (Toxic)
5th Level: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
7th Level: Eldritch Heritage (Envenomed/Serpent’s Fang)
Discoveries
2nd Level: Infusion
4th Level: Feral Mutagen
6th Level: Sticky Poison
Serpent Belt (Ultimate Euqipment) 9000 gp
Poison DC @ 7th Level: 10 + ½ level + Con + Ability Focus + Serpent Belt = 10 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 21
This build can poison (con mod times per day) with a quite good DC. Thanks to sticky poision stays active for int mod hits.
There are some rule issues or rules that are not completly clear. But over all this should word.
@OP: In which book is the Daggermark Poisoner?
Breiti
except that archers tend to make the best poisoners. all those arrows, and the poison parts until used.
the new infinite ammo item enhancement from ue might make your prepoisoned arrows to be recreated. if so, faces you tons of gold.
Most poisons are vicious when they work, but their save DCs are abyssmal (13-18, rarely ever going higher than that.)
In other words, they'll work really well on that NPC who doesn't have any sort of class levels, but against leveled NPCs or monsters, I wouldn't expect anyone to be failing their saves.
For many poisons, you can add more doses to "concentrate" the poison before the target is exposed to it. Read the section in the rules which discusses poisons specifically. A link to the relevant section at the PFsrd:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison
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Poisons can be fun, and the nice thing about their DC is that it rises really fast. " In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. " So if you have the Sticky Poison Discovery or poisoned ammunition, that mediocre DC can sky-rocket fairly quickly.
Most poisons are vicious when they work, but their save DCs are abyssmal (13-18, rarely ever going higher than that.)
In other words, they'll work really well on that NPC who doesn't have any sort of class levels, but against leveled NPCs or monsters, I wouldn't expect anyone to be failing their saves.
For many poisons, you can add more doses to "concentrate" the poison before the target is exposed to it. Read the section in the rules which discusses poisons specifically. A link to the relevant section at the PFsrd:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison
Most adventurers think of "Contact" or "Injury" poisons when they're trying to use poisons (ie: smear it on my weapon and hit my opponent) so it's worth pointing out that Contact/Injury poisons cannot "double-up" on dosage to increase the DC.
If you check the rules, if both poisons hit, the DC increases by +2 for the total, so it might not be doubling up, but it is increasing the DC. that is for contact and injury poisons. Inhaled and ingested poisons stack in all manners, while injury an contact strictly for duration and DC for new save, not all of them.