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Many of the druid archetypes gain wild shape, but at a reduced level (say, level -2 or level -4), but give access to other shapes in return. If you take shaping focus, would you get access to those shapes earlier?
For example, a mountain druid gets access to change into giant forms at 12th level, but he wild shapes at -2 levels. Would a mountain druid 9/fighter 1 with the shaping focus feat get access to the giant shape at 10th level?
Looking at the feat, I think you'd need to wait until 12th level to gain access to giant shape, same as normal. You wouldn't be penalized further because of the fighter dip, but I don't think this feat is there to eliminate delayed wildshaping given by archetypes.
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Looking at the feat, I think you'd need to wait until 12th level to gain access to giant shape, same as normal. You wouldn't be penalized further because of the fighter dip, but I don't think this feat is there to eliminate delayed wildshaping given by archetypes.
Do you have any rules basis for that call? I understand that is sounds right to you (I might agree with you in a home game setting), but I am trying to figure out how this might play out RAW. As it appears to stand, when you gain levels from Shaping Focus, not only does it give you longer duration on your wild shape, it potentially give you additional changes per day, and you gain access to higher level shapes sooner (capping at the HD limit). So it looks to me like potentially desert druids could gain access to vermin sooner, etc. The new shapes are tied into the wild shape ability - they're not a separate class archtype dependent ability.
The only hitch - Shaping Focus says you have to be multiclassed to gain the benefit of the +4 levels in wild shape (although it's not a requirement to gain the feat itself). It seems to SUGGEST that the intention is based on your theory - but the rules don't spell that out. It looks to me like if you're down in levels, as long as you have one level in another class, you can make up the difference, and possibly a bit extra...
Looking at the feat, I think you'd need to wait until 12th level to gain access to giant shape, same as normal. You wouldn't be penalized further because of the fighter dip, but I don't think this feat is there to eliminate delayed wildshaping given by archetypes.
This seems to be correct. The feat says "If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level."
So a Druid9/fighter 1 is treated as a druid 10 for wild shaping.
The feat doesn't say that you're treated as a druid of up to 4 levels higher for the purposes of wildshaping, which can give you earlier access to wildshaping abilities. It says that if you're multiclassed, that you can be treated as a druid up to four levels higher for the purposes of wildshaping, which would negate the wildshaping delay caused by a dip; this does not imply the interpretation you're suggesting. The intent seems pretty clear to me.
Do you have any rules basis for your call, since it seems that you're reading more into the feat than what's actually written.
Edit: And you can't surpass your character level, either. This means that you gain Giant Shape at level 12 under any interpretation, since that's the earliest level that's available, period.
Design Manager
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Also note, archetypes are still the main class. A mountain druid is a specialized type of druid, so a mountain druid 9/ fighter 1 with Shaping Focus wildshapes as a mountain druid 10.
From the PRD on alternate class features:
"A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
You don't wild shape as a base druid anymore, you wildshape as a mountain druid, with all that that entails.
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Breaking it down:
Mountain Druid 9 / Fighter 1 = No access to wildshape (giant) yet.
w/ Shaping Focus feat: no difference because the minimum level required for Giant form (Druid 12) has not been reached yet.
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Mountain Druid 11 / Fighter 1 = No access to wildshape (giant) yet.
w/ Shaping Focus feat: Mountain Druid 11 / Fighter 1 = Access to wildshape (Druid 12). Wildshape level counts as Druid 10 (Druid 12 minus 2 levels)
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Mountain Druid 12 / Fighter 1 = Acces to wildshape (giant). Wildshape level counts as Druid 10 (Druid 12 minus 2 levels).
w/ Shaping Focus Feat: Mountain Druid 12 / Fighter 1 = Access to wildshape (giant). Wildshape level counts as Druid 12 + Fighter 1 = Wildshape level counts as Druid 11 (Druid 13 minus 2 levels).
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etc
Cheers
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The feat doesn't say that you're treated as a druid of up to 4 levels higher for the purposes of wildshaping, which can give you earlier access to wildshaping abilities. It says that if you're multiclassed, that you can be treated as a druid up to four levels higher for the purposes of wildshaping, which would negate the wildshaping delay caused by a dip; this does not imply the interpretation you're suggesting. The intent seems pretty clear to me.
Do you have any rules basis for your call, since it seems that you're reading more into the feat than what's actually written.
Edit: And you can't surpass your character level, either. This means that you gain Giant Shape at level 12 under any interpretation, since that's the earliest level that's available, period.
I’m sorry that you feel your ‘edit’ comment is the only interpretation. I started this thread with a different interpretation, so I would say you are wrong with that assessment. Of course, my INTERPRETATION could be wrong – that’s another matter. But interpretations are opinions and viewpoints – they tend to differ.
With the number of responses supporting the ‘no to gaining access to shapes earlier than normal’, I think I’ll go with that. However, you asked about the rules basis for my call, so here you go...(I’ll stick with mountain druid to keep it simple)…
1. Let’s go with a straight mountain druid 10. He wild shapes as a druid 8 (he is -2 levels). He loses access to some shapes, and gains access to others.
2. Wild druid gains access to giant form at 12th level class level, not character level.
3. Shaping focus gives +4 levels to wild shape – presumably it will work with all variant wild shape abilities as well. That means longer duration on wild shapes, number of times per day, and additional access to forms.
4. Shaping focus is limited by a max of the character level, not class level.
5. Shaping focus does not say ‘you only make up the difference of your non-druid levels’, although it does say you have to be multi-classed to gain a benefit from this feat (I’ve stripped the extra class level out of this example for simplicity).
6. 10 (character & class level) – 2 (modifier for archetype) brings you to 8. Then +4 from the feat (12). Since that is still 2 levels above the character level, it is limited to 10. That is still 2 levels higher than when you started (8).
If I had left a fighter level in this example, then the PC would be -3 levels to begin with. Obviously, multi-classing is required with this feat – I just used the above example stripped down a bit for simplicity.
However, I like Ssalarn’s way of looking at it. A way of looking at this is that the mountain druid is not -2 levels in wild shape ability – more accurately, his -2 levels of wild shaping ability AS COMPARED TO A NORMAL DRUID. So a mountain druid shape changes at the exact level they are supposed to change at – with no deficit. It is like a paladin being down in spell caster levels – the paladin is still at the max caster level that HE can be at. Using that viewpoint, I can see a better argument for not granting the lost wild shape levels from the archetype. Going to the argument above, I listed the starting value as 10, but really I should have STARTED with 8 as the limit.
Thanks for the thoughts, folks!