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I've been lurking around on the boards and reading all of the "monk-hate", and have been noticing that one of the things that people wish was different about the monk is the whole not being able to move and flurry business. This makes sense, and I know I've seen more than my share of "kick-flicks" that feature some martial artist clearing a room in a matter of seconds by zipping from one place to another swinging and kicking and whatnot until all of the bad guys are drooling on the floor.
Various people have also mentioned that this could be balanced by allowing the Ki Pool give your monk a Pounce like ability, which seems like a good way to balance it.
So here's what I've come up with, Ki Barrage: By spending __ amount of Ki from your Ki Pool you can move up to half of your move action and flurry as a standard action.
This doesn't seem overpowered to me being as by the time you get Ki Pool you are moving 40 ft which would get knocked down to 20 ft for the use of this ability, and at level 20 (assuming your character goes that far) your looking at 45 feet of movement with a flurry (also assuming you don't have anything that allows you to increase your speed further like the Fleet feat).
So what do you think? Sucks/Doesn't Sucks? How much Ki would make this mechanically sound for the class? Would it be possible to use this for a Dervish like hit-move-hit-move tactic in addition to a pounce tactic?
I've been lurking around on the boards and reading all of the "monk-hate", and have been noticing that one of the things that people wish was different about the monk is the whole not being able to move and flurry business. This makes sense, and I know I've seen more than my share of "kick-flicks" that feature some martial artist clearing a room in a matter of seconds by zipping from one place to another swinging and kicking and whatnot until all of the bad guys are drooling on the floor.
Various people have also mentioned that this could be balanced by allowing the Ki Pool give your monk a Pounce like ability, which seems like a good way to balance it.
So here's what I've come up with, Ki Barrage: By spending __ amount of Ki from your Ki Pool you can move up to half of your move action and flurry as a standard action.
This doesn't seem overpowered to me being as by the time you get Ki Pool you are moving 40 ft which would get knocked down to 20 ft for the use of this ability, and at level 20 (assuming your character goes that far) your looking at 45 feet of movement with a flurry (also assuming you don't have anything that allows you to increase your speed further like the Fleet feat).
So what do you think? Sucks/Doesn't Sucks? How much Ki would make this mechanically sound for the class? Would it be possible to use this for a Dervish like hit-move-hit-move tactic in addition to a pounce tactic?
I like simple fixes - often they're the best. This is very simple and I like the idea behind it. I'm not a monk fan and we don't use it in campaigns I run, so I unfortunately don't have anything to contribute save to say probably 2-3 for the move & full attack/flurry.
Thanks for putting your two coppers in here Da'ath. I also like that the proposed fix is on the simple side.
So you think that moving up to 2/3 normal movement would still be pretty easy and balanced?
Just comparing here. A monk with normal or slow speed who hasn't buffed their movement through feats or magic:
Mine
-Slow speed
--30ft/3rd, 40ft/6th, 50ft/9th, 60ft/12th, 70ft/15th, 80ft/18th; so the slow speed monk would be able to barrage and move between 15ft - 40ft depending on their level.
-Normal speed
--adding 10ft for normal speed would give the monk barrage and move between 20ft-45ft depending on level.
Your suggestion
-Slow speed
--2/3 speed instead of half speed gives the small monk barrage and move between 20ft - 50ft(after rounding down) depending on level.
-Medium speed
--barrage and move between 25ft(after rounding down) - 60ft depending on level.
In the end result we are looking at 10 extra feet of movement for the slow monk and 15 for the normal monk which probably isn't that big of a game killer at 18th level and up. I would probably be ok with that.
You know something? What would be easy is if the line that read "You can add twenty feet to your speed" instead said "You can move 20 feet as a swift action" when you spend a point of ki.
You know something? What would be easy is if the line that read "You can add twenty feet to your speed" instead said "You can move 20 feet as a swift action" when you spend a point of ki.
Good call, Dabbler! Quite easy indeed. Perhaps that's a better direction to go than to invent a whole new Ki ability.
You know something? What would be easy is if the line that read "You can add twenty feet to your speed" instead said "You can move 20 feet as a swift action" when you spend a point of ki.
You know what would be simpler? Making Flurry of Blows a standard action eventually.
I added this to an archtype I made:
Dance of Blows (Ex): At 7th level, while flurrying, a zen weaponmaster may take a 5' step between each attack, up to half his movement. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
At 14th level he may move up to half his movement and still use flurry of blows. This ability replaces wholeness of body.
I liked it, of course. If not a class feature, they could certainly spend ki on it as a ki power.
You know what would be simpler? Making Flurry of Blows a standard action eventually.
While that too would also be quite simple, is this something that we think that the Devs would actually go with? I'm only a passing number cruncher compared to many of the other people on these boards, but it seems that flurrying as a standard action might be considered a bit much from the balance piece.
Keep in mind. I am not saying that Cheapy is wrong at all. I'm just putting the question/thought out there.
I added this to an archtype I made:
I liked it, of course. If not a class feature, they could certainly spend ki on it as a ki power.Dance of Blows (Ex): At 7th level, while flurrying, a zen weaponmaster may take a 5' step between each attack, up to half his movement. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
At 14th level he may move up to half his movement and still use flurry of blows. This ability replaces wholeness of body.
Very nice Kryzbyn! I'm glad to see that I'm not the first one to think of this as a great way to modify/improve the monk. Not to mention that yours looks a lot more official than mine!
Heh!
Check it out, if you'd like here.
Another idea that's similar, but doesn't so drastically change the action economy (if you care about that), is to let them spend a ki point as part of a charge or spring attack to make a second attack at highest attack bonus. And maybe add +2 to-hit to the attacks. (So charge becomes +4, and spring attack gets +2) Maybe at some level you can make a third attack at a lower bonus.
This has the effect that you can't skirmish so easily, which is really the main issue with "standard action flurry", but still has much the same effect. You can close with enemies and make some nice attacks, but then you don't have the issue with skirmishing.
Actually, if they just removed the "when making a flurry of blows attack" from the existing text, that may fix some things. Then it would jsut be, spend a ki as a swift, get an extra attack at full BAB. This may make a mess with things that are intended to only be used once a round (like vital strike) but it would be a simple improvement.
You know what would be simpler? Making Flurry of Blows a standard action eventually.While that too would also be quite simple, is this something that we think that the Devs would actually go with? I'm only a passing number cruncher compared to many of the other people on these boards, but it seems that flurrying as a standard action might be considered a bit much from the balance piece.
Keep in mind. I am not saying that Cheapy is wrong at all. I'm just putting the question/thought out there.
It was a half-serious suggestion. There was some serious talk about it during the Prerelease Playtests (although mostly from fans, unless my search-fu is failing), but I think the skirmishing issue was the nail in the head for it. It's simply not fun to be on the receiving end of something that you can't retaliate effectively to (see, dragons being played intelligently and all-melee fighters). I always found the idea intriguing, as the dichotomy between the focus on mobility and the inability to use your main combat ability while being truly mobile seemed a bit odd.
I've been toying with the idea of it for something, but I do think something would have to give to just place that on the current monk. It's a big boost.
The issue I see with the proposed version in the OP is that if it's only 1, then it's too cheap and really just blows away all the other options you can choose. If it's 2 or more, then it's too expensive and becomes a very rare thing. Well, until they get a ring of ki mastery to reduce it to 1 point. Originally my concern was also how "half monk speed" is basically "normal other people speed", but that was covered already :)
More ideas would be to give up the lowest bonus attacks to move a bit. Now, this has the issue that you aren't going to be hitting with those anyways, so it's just a boost, really. But I think something can be done with that idea at least. For example, maybe at 8th level, you can give up one of your +6s and one of the +1s to be able to make move + flurry. Or give up 1 AoO a round and the lowest bonus attacks to do so. (The thing I'm toying with also uses an idea like this.)
-Kryzbyn
I definitely like the archetype. I may even carry it over into my homegames now that you've pointed it out to me. A very cool way to blend weapons with the monk.
-Cheapy
That also seems to be another good way to handle the issue. I guess there's a lot of good ways to go about it. The trick is just picking which one (or more than one maybe) that someone would want for their game, or which one the Devs will pick up on when they get around to fixing the monk officially.
What about a variation on the re-wording that Dabbler mentioned.
Spend 1 ki point to add 20 feet of movement
Spend 2 ki points to add 20 feet of movement as a swift action
This way the movement is still a short burst, and you get the benefit of a move+flurry option.
I think it's an interesting idea, although it's more "short range mobility" than "long range mobility". I suppose I envision long range mobility more, and perhaps that's why I see the skirmisher problem as being a large one.
One really, really cool idea about it is that swift actions can be done in the middle of other actions, so you could wallop with one attack on guy and then move over to a guy 20 feet away and finish your attacks on him. Fairly cinematic at least, and as long as it's restricted to just monks, I'm somewhat alright with it. Might not allow it in my game, and I highly doubt the devs will go for it. Granted, I'm 98.76% certain that they won't use my ideas of using up attacks :p
Another idea that's similar, but doesn't so drastically change the action economy (if you care about that), is to let them spend a ki point as part of a charge or spring attack to make a second attack at highest attack bonus. And maybe add +2 to-hit to the attacks. (So charge becomes +4, and spring attack gets +2) Maybe at some level you can make a third attack at a lower bonus.
This has the effect that you can't skirmish so easily, which is really the main issue with "standard action flurry", but still has much the same effect. You can close with enemies and make some nice attacks, but then you don't have the issue with skirmishing.
That is almost exactly what I did on my latest Revised Monk, Cheapy. I have it so that you spend 1 point of ki as a swift action in order to gain one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when you (a) move 10' or more in a single round, (b) charge, or (c) use the Spring Attack feat. Both of these attacks (the single one normally available and the additional one from expending ki) are made the monk's flurry of blows BAB.
After all, the Two-Weapon Warrior fighter archetype gets to attack with two weapons as a standard action at 9th level . . . without spending a finite resource like ki. Now, it could be argued that the monk gets it earlier (4th vs. 9th), but the argument cannot be made that a weaker version usable a limited number of times per day is overpowered versus the TWW Fighter's version which does not have a daily limit.
And there is also the barbarian, which can get pounce. Two examples in canon.
MA
I agree with Master Arminas that if you are going to be spending a limited resource like Ki, that you should get a little more bang for your buck since there are precidents of other classes getting similar abilities, and in some cases being able to do them an umlimited number of times, such as the Two Weapon Warrior.
To this aim I suggest this:
Ki Barrage (Ex): By spending 2 points of Ki the monk is allowed to move and perform a flurry of blows simultaneously. The monk can move up to half of his normal movement when performing a Ki Barrage and may split the flurry of blows attacks between various enemies as long as the monk does not move more than half of their normal movement. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
This adaption provides mobility, the ability to attack multiple opponents, and freedom from AoO's. Is it too much?
Do note that the two weapon warrior has hidden costs for their ability. They miss out on +2 - +4 to hit and damage when they use Doublestrike. Giving them ever so slightly better to-hit than the monk would have when flurrying. They lose out on Weapon Training when using that ability, as well as the gloves of the duelist.
Do note that the two weapon warrior has hidden costs for their ability. They miss out on +2 - +4 to hit and damage when they use Doublestrike. Giving them ever so slightly better to-hit than the monk would have when flurrying. They lose out on Weapon Training when using that ability, as well as the gloves of the duelist.
True . . . but what does the barbarian lose? With the Greater Beast Totem power? He gets a full attack after a charge, while raging. A FULL ATTACK. And he loses nothing.
MA
That's more an issue of Greater Beast Totem :)
Porkchopxpress: I'd be interested to see how that ability works out in play.
So you think that moving up to 2/3 normal movement would still be pretty easy and balanced?
Sorry, I really shouldn't post when I'm distracted. I meant 2-3 ki points. Again, sorry for the confusion.
To this aim I suggest this:
Ki Barrage (Ex): By spending 2 points of Ki the monk is allowed to move and perform a flurry of blows simultaneously. The monk can move up to half of his normal movement when performing a Ki Barrage and may split the flurry of blows attacks between various enemies as long as the monk does not move more than half of their normal movement. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
This adaption provides mobility, the ability to attack multiple opponents, and freedom from AoO's. Is it too much?
Frankly, I kinda like it. At what level would they receive this or to what ability would it be tied? Tied to the Ki entry, the Flurry entry, or a level-based entry?
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I was thinking we just add it to the Ki entry. So technically they would get it as soon as they get their Ki pool. As written, once the player hits 4th level, they will be able to move half of their normal speed (so either 15 or 20 ft) and then flurry with 2 attacks hitting either one or two enemies with no AoO.
I will try to run a playtest of this concept asap. Unfortunately in the game I am currently running and the one I am about to start I don't believe I have anyone playing a monk, so either I'll have to toss in one as an NPC, or I'll just have to set aside some time to playtest it separately.