RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Magic stone is great for a cleric, at least if you didn't dump DEX. If you're fighting undead, suddenly you have three swings with a +2 greatsword with 20-50ft reach. (Okay, you only get 1.0x STR mod to damage and you use DEX to hit, but still, 2d6+2+STRmod is pretty serious at low levels!)
|
It's ok, I wouldn't say great. Really cirumstantial, as if you don't fight undead often, (often being key), it is a 1d6+1, which most Clerics already have 3+Wis a day, if not better. It does have a great duration, even if a rather weak spell itself, but I'd still go with Command or Bless over it unless I where built to throw pebbles or shoot a sling and knew that I would be facing 1 or 2 BBEG Undead. Both will be much more effective in many more possibilities. But, your mileage may vary.
I disagree.I rhink there are plenty of options outside of a deity, and Paizo already has a few that where retroactively changed ro no longer exist. But Im talking about something else really. What Im suggesting was to leave the particulars of the faith in the hands of the player similar to how a Wizard or Fighter has free reign to create their own schools or means of training. The base assumption, in my opinion should be that a Cleric and the DM (and Paladin, Druid, etc. . .) should work together to establish the religion/deity/etc. Thats part of the fun of character creation. I also really do not care for the vast majority of Golarion deities.[guote=Drajk]
I'm not at all a fan of mandaiting a setting deity, as that robs me of a lot of the fun for creating a character.I think that gaining power from deity is the core part of the cleric - so wanting to play deity-powered class without deity is a bit like wanting to play magic-less wizard, IMO. Of course deity does not have to be a personal god, depending upon world the game takes place.
--quote stuffed up--
Yes, a few were taken away, and stream-lined down, a shameful display. Domain clerics can work if a dm is fine with clerics of powers and domains, and not only clerics of gods who control those powers and domains. I like a mix, the more I think about it. So much so that in my little setting, they can be monotheists or pretty much anything else as clerics. Sure the churches have some power here here and here, but over here in the lizardfolk city-states of enlightenment, the worship of forces of the community and ancestors leads to non-god clerics. Not huge in number, but it is attached to this civ. Also threw in a cleric of maggots, rot and impermanence. A player enjoyed talking to him, affiliated with the god of death, but that isn't his boss. His domains don't have a god because a giant maggot would be mindless, it embodies natural decay and transformation of matter, it would not exist as an individual entity.
Then the cleric turned two into maggots, fed them up and healed them of all their wounds far quicker in their new state, before changing them back.
If you have domains, druids are a lot more akin to domain clerics. They can still lose their powers, but it gives the players so much choice that I just love it.
|
Cleric is the core class which most interests me, but what puts me off is the miserable spell-slot system which D&D/Pathfinder is saddled with. Messing around with picking spells (even if you have a default list to run with) is what makes clerics, druids, and wizards suck to play. Also, a lot of people are still under the impression that clerics are just healbots. I got around spell-slot hell in my most recent game by switching over to an oracle. I may never go back to the cleric. I would love to see Paizo re-do all the non-spontaneous classes as spontaneous casting types. I think it would be viable and make playing them a lot more fun.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cleric is the core class which most interests me, but what puts me off is the miserable spell-slot system which D&D/Pathfinder is saddled with. Messing around with picking spells (even if you have a default list to run with) is what makes clerics, druids, and wizards suck to play. Also, a lot of people are still under the impression that clerics are just healbots. I got around spell-slot hell in my most recent game by switching over to an oracle. I may never go back to the cleric. I would love to see Paizo re-do all the non-spontaneous classes as spontaneous casting types. I think it would be viable and make playing them a lot more fun.
In addition to what TOZ posted, there are already - Sorc for Wizard (and with the proper bloodline you can pull off Witch), Oracle for Cleric, and the above-linked Shaman for Druid.
Granted all of them suffer from the "Spont Casters get spells a level later than their Vancian counterparts", but a quick house-rule solves that.
or you could just play a life oracle---and channel also and the higher charisma you start with will make up for your 1+cha channels vs the clerics 3+cha
human cleric vs human oracle
human cleric
str 10
con 14
dex 10
wis 16
int 10
cha 16
human oracle
str 10
con 14
dex 10
wis 12
int 10
cha 17
both will have channeling--the oracle 2 less. both have the cleric spells
spells per level
cleric
1== 4-0, 2+1
2== 4-0, 3+1
3== 4-0, 3+1, 2+1
4== 4-0, 4+1, 3+1
5== 4-0, 4=1, 3+1, 2+1
etc
life oracles
1==4-0, 4,
2==5-0, 5+1
3==5-0, 6+1
4==6-0, 7+1 , 4+1
5==6-0, 7+1 5+1
6==7-0, 7+1 6+1 4+1
plus after taking channeling as his first revelation the oracle is adding other revalations. and he will soon have as many channels as the cleric as he raises his cha.
you have more limits in choice on spells--but can get the best and choose them on the fly. plus you will have more casts per spell level of each
People can gawk at all these nifty abilities clerics get, at the end of the day, in any group with only 1 cleric, they expect you to keep everyone alive, and only prepare the best high level spells to do that. Why Heal isn't treated as a cure spell IDK.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
People can gawk at all these nifty abilities clerics get, at the end of the day, in any group with only 1 cleric, they expect you to keep everyone alive, and only prepare the best high level spells to do that. Why Heal isn't treated as a cure spell IDK.
Yep, and a group pushing around a player and saying, no, you play this is an awful situation. Far better to take a dab of healing and tell them to deal. Perhaps play of a faith far from the healing, an evil cleric or a neutral cleric of something crazy, Zyphus, Groetus, that sort of thing.
IF you don't seem generic and aren't at all based around healing, then they will have to adapt and accept it. Or a cleric of war and battle and such that looks down on healing, for we should strive to die in the moment when we are most alive!
No one said a cleric has to be sane, pragmatic or a team-player and limit his options and intentions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IF you don't seem generic and aren't at all based around healing, then they will have to adapt and accept it. Or a cleric of war and battle and such that looks down on healing, for we should strive to die in the moment when we are most alive!
No one said a cleric has to be sane, pragmatic or a team-player and limit his options and intentions.
This was my first cleric - and second PnP character - ever, in a nutshell. Greatsword-swinging Air Genasi with a manic grin and no sense of self-preservation. "COME ON BOYS! WHO WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER?!" She was fun. And I don't recall ever being demanded to hand out healing, though that might just be my old group, we were all kind of nuts in that game.
Yeah, same story with Breath of Life.
That one I did houserule back to Cure Deadly Wounds as per JJ's recommendation. Hand it out free to Oracles that chose to get Cure spells too. Need to find an Inflict counterpart though for the others.
This was my first cleric - and second PnP character - ever, in a nutshell. Greatsword-swinging Air Genasi with a manic grin and no sense of self-preservation. "COME ON BOYS! WHO WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER?!" She was fun. And I don't recall ever being demanded to hand out healing, though that might just be my old group, we were all kind of nuts in that game.IF you don't seem generic and aren't at all based around healing, then they will have to adapt and accept it. Or a cleric of war and battle and such that looks down on healing, for we should strive to die in the moment when we are most alive!
No one said a cleric has to be sane, pragmatic or a team-player and limit his options and intentions.
"Who wants to live forever" is right up there with "let's all die together" for cool cleric war cries.
I'm a LG cleric trying to straddle melee and support without being a healbot. I'll let you all know how it goes. ;)
Ha ha, well you can fall back on:
"The tenets of my faith prevent me from healing".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Healbot! Earn your gold!
"I'm sorry, my axe is currently stuck in this fellow's jugular. Don't you carry potions, warmblood?"
Ya know, I am all for working the cleric for all the versatility it's got, and playing your concept however you like it, but...
Is being the healbot so bad?
I mean, yeah, I get it -- it is a pain in the ass when you're swinging your Holy Flaming Mace ready to Channel Smite the mummy into oblivion and the halfling rogue starts squawking, "I've taken 4 hit points of damage! Help help! I've got a boo boo!" (I don't care if you've only got 12 hp, I'm busy being badass here.)
But I mean, I've actually have had fun being party mom healing everyone and tucking them in and saying their prayers with them at night. (Whether they like it or not!)
Being the healer isn't so awful. ESPECIALLY when it tends to make the fighter and wizard go, "Crap, if she goes down, we all go down. Protect the cleric!!!!" And you find yourself highest on the party survival priority list.
The annoying part is when people tell you WHAT TO DO with your class. Which can happen with any character, but it does happen to the cleric a lot.
But actually being the healer--if of course that's what you want to play--ain't so bad at all.
Nothing against playing the healer when you want to play the healer. I had a 3.5 Archivist who was pretty much team healer/buffer - despite all her complaints of "Stupid Healer's Oath" whenever someone in the group did something stupid and she really wanted to smack them or leave them injured for it - and she was tons of fun. At the same time, Cleric is a class versatile enough to play multiple ways, and the idea of being pigeonholed into that role when you want to try another perspective on the class gets, obviously, frustrating.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After playing a Cleric of Boccob all through LG (psst bring back Domain Spontaneity and the Force domain - I miss dropping Walls of Force all over the place while airwalking in my cube of force)
And playing a Cleric of Saren Rae all through 2nd Darkness
I took a pass in PFS, until last night... but I'm not Channeling positive... healing is everyone's responsiblity!
Seriouosly though, there's just so many archtypes and classes I think that's why there seem to be fewer clerics.
This thread just keeps getting better and better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my experience, back in 3.5 clerics were the most poweful class in the game (we used to fight each other's characters when we were bored, cleric won more often than anyone else).
Despite the loss of a spell slot, the re-balancing in PFRPG has made them less all-powerful, but still fun to play. I'm currently the cleric in the campaign I'm playing in and I like being able to keep my party alive (other PCs in party are rogue, spellslinger, & magus).
Clerics rock, and will continue to rock for the life of D&D in any of its incarnations. And you can play any kind of cleric you want to in PFRPG, especially with the archetypes, domains, and spells available in the SRD alone.
Personally, I think Paizo has done a decent job of giving enough love to all of the classes, and there isn't one that I wouldn't consider playing (doesn't go the same for archetypes, but I think that's the point).
I'm a LG cleric trying to straddle melee and support without being a healbot. I'll let you all know how it goes. ;)I just tell 'em I'm a fighter what knows a few spells. Seems to work out alright.
One of my players planned on playing Cleric worshipping god of war and posing as a fighter. He later decided for a pure fighter, however.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cleric stigma. People see them as healbots, or at least, unable to do combat. I know I got turned off of clerics when I was playing with a friend in 4e (since he was basically only healing and throwing out occasional lightning attacks).
I want to try out a Dwarven Barbarian/Cleric (travel/ferocity) build I made but I haven't gotten the chance yet. (Speed 40ft even with armor encumbrance? YES).
Cleric stigma. People see them as healbots, or at least, unable to do combat. I know I got turned off of clerics when I was playing with a friend in 4e (since he was basically only healing and throwing out occasional lightning attacks).
Strange, in 4th edition cleric was intended to be much less of a healbot than in 3rd edition/PF. You should have been be able to focus more on buffing others IIRC. Or maybe was those powers added in splat books you hadn't at hand.
I want to try out a Dwarven Barbarian/Cleric (travel/ferocity) build I made but I haven't gotten the chance yet. (Speed 40ft even with armor encumbrance? YES).
Interesting idea. Might consider designing something like that.
is great for a cleric, at least if you didn't dump DEX. If you're fighting undead, suddenly you have three swings with a +2 greatsword with 20-50ft reach. (Okay, you only get 1.0x STR mod to damage and you use DEX to hit, but still, 2d6+2+STRmod is pretty serious at low levels!)
After reading four pages of posts, I think I'm coming to a new conclusion:
People are reluctant to play clerics because they're bad at building them.
The great thing about threads like this is that some people offer you advice and some new insights on how to play a cleric, and I'm not taking optimization. It also gives you the opportunity to offer others advice if you have the knowledge, time and inclination to do so.
Bad things are when people just complaint or when people start calling other names or saying she is playing the game wrong or he is a dick or imply that people are not fit to play a social game like PF.
Other bad things are when posters like you and other claims that the problem is either that people are inexperienced or that they are " bad at building them". Stuff like that is both condescending but also ignorant and is anything but productive.
Some like to play spell casters, some hate it.
Some love playing divine magic users, some don't.
Some love playing arcane casters, some don't.
Some like to ability to be a DPR monster, some don't
Some love the option of being a healbot, some don't
Some love playing religious characters, some don't.
Some like to play prepared casters some prefer spontaneous casters.
Some like to play jack of all trade characters some don't.
Some love Bards, some don't
Some love gnomes, some don't.
Some like or even love to play Clerics, some don't. They may prefer playing Oracles or Investors or whatever.
Are we seeing a pattern? Are people that don't like X just bad at creating characters or could it be something else than incompetence? Could it be a matter of taste? Personal preferences?
Me, I think it is OK if people don't have the same taste as I. If I suspect someone got something wrong, I offer my help, if I have the time and energy to help and if they want it. Claiming peoples taste is wrong simply because they are incompetent, is just awful.
Some of the most interesting advice in this thread, regardless if it was meant as a joke, came from Marius Castille. Most (if not all) of the advice threads on how to create/play a class are focused on optimization (as in maximize DPR). That's really sad, because there is so much more to the game than DPR. What's makes people reluctant to play clerics? I think, most of the time it has nothing to do with power. I think there are other aspects. So focusing on optimization may not be the answer, nor is calling people stupid or inexperience or bad at creating characters. The Cleric is a powerful class but it could do with a thread giving people advice on how to create and play a cleric with focus on fun. A thread that offer advice on different kind of clerics, different kind of builds, role playing advice, etc. That could obviously be said for any class, but cleric is one of the most generic classes in the game.
btw, I agree that Magic stone is a good spells at lower level when fighting undeads.
|
|
After playing a Cleric of Boccob all through LG (psst bring back Domain Spontaneity and the Force domain - I miss dropping Walls of Force all over the place while airwalking in my cube of force)
And playing a Cleric of Saren Rae all through 2nd Darkness
I took a pass in PFS, until last night... but I'm not Channeling positive... healing is everyone's responsiblity!
Seriouosly though, there's just so many archtypes and classes I think that's why there seem to be fewer clerics.
{facepalm} DOH!!! They banned my archtype in PFS... sigh.... saving it for Kingmaker I guess.
I think that the cleric is a class that is seen as extremely necessary, due to the healing capabilities.
The only other class that I've seen people "needing" to have with nearly as much frequency is rogue.
That being said, and personal preferences being equal, more people who would much rather play something else entirely get roped into playing the cleric, and thus the stigma. I personally don't like playing clerics, and if it were up to me I probably never would. But I am extremely group oriented, and have ended up taking one for the team a time or two.
I doesn't hurt my feelings that there are people who like being clerics. The only time I've ever encountered them is in threads like this one, never once in the meat world, but I'm sure there must be an actual one somewhere or they'd quit making the damn class. So you'll forgive me if I'm frankly wondering if there's some funny business going on here. I'd like there to be more of them so I never had to be cleric again. But there you go.
I actually suck at being cleric. I'm way better at being a fighter. I do great as a fighter. Never once gave a flying fly spell f**$ about any fighter/wizard disparity. I kinda don't believe in that too much either, or if it is real, it doesn't actually have any functional bearing in my universe, other than as an annoying point of contention.
I used to like paladin in 1e, 3/3.5e paladin sucked; I actually like the Pathfinder paladin better but......fighter is my thing.
I bet a lot of people are reluctant to play other classes, but don't necessarily get roped into being the party......fighter/wizard/oracle/etc.
Better question is why be a Cleric of anyone BUT Desna? She's the most broken f~!&ing diety in the game. Just look at Luck, Freedom and Travel Domains.I'd contest that. Sun Domain's 8th level power is the perfect answer to at-will deeper darkness, and is unique in that respect. The Heroism subdomain lets you take a 3rd-level touch spell, one of the best buffs in the game, and turn it into a swift-action aura.
Nice advice. I hadn't notice that subdomain.
1St and 2nd Ed AD&D clerics never really appealed to me. Was not crazy about some of the imagery of some of the spells. (Giant insect? Really?) Did not understand the need for blunt weapons only. I was not dead set against the idea of clerics, mind you. Very much like their inclusion in the setting and sweet bonus if someone else was playing one. Just did not care to play them.
3rd edition changed all that.
You could choose domains which added spell variety and bonus little quirks?
You did not have to worship a specific deity but could instead choose to emulate/champion ideals?
There was a point to having a decent Charisma?
You could be a war priest and actually wield a... a sword!?
Okay, sign me up.
After decades of D&D, I finally played my first cleric in Shackled City.
Thanks to a flexible DM, I played a "no devotion" cleric. But instead of "no devotion", my NG 1/2 orc was a cleric of many devotions. It's a pantheon, after all. It would not be strange to pay respect to and heed the wise teachings of a handful of deities. As a champion of Strength and War, my cleric venerated any neutral and/or good deity with those domains in their stock. (He even had a cultural soft spot for Gruumsh who had both but kept uncomfortably pushing evil barbaric thoughts in my character's head.) My DM took the stance that the good gods would love to get their hands on a devout not only sympathetic to them but also away from the influence of Grumsh so they supported the character.
This character, when buffed with empowered Bull Str, Righteous Might and the daily Feat of Strenth currently at level 20 gets +31 Str for one round for a total of 51 strength. Wielding his Greatsword, he definitely holds his own.
He occasionally spontaneously heals comrades but they usually get their healing from the wand-wielding bard or druid. He has nothing against healing and will do so if required but it's pretty clear what his focus is.
Plus spells and turn undead? Regularly performing "miracles" (not the spell but just great feats) and gathering a loyal fervent following with Leadership?
Only great times. :)
Yes dwarven clerics with travel domain is 40 without the barbarian!
No it is 30.
I know some people say that in-battle healing is mostly unnecessary, but that's a matter of the GM. One game I'm in now I'm a 6th level Oracle of the Dark Tapestry. We started at 1. Pretty much from levels 2 to 5 I ended up having to use pretty much every damn turn or every last spell slot healing people, and it's not like they were stupid or un-optimized or that the GM was being a dick, it's just how it worked out. Eventually when we turned 5th he just let me take Channel from the Healing mystery, and I still end up using that all the time in battle, but now I get to throw out some Prayer, Protections, or even Murderous Commands as well ;p
That said, I find Clerics bland. I don't like the domains (mostly uninteresting and a lot of worthless stuff) and I don't like having to stack self buffs to be decent in combat (which for me means I might as well play it as a dedicated caster, so 3/4 BAB is meaningless, and even if it wasn't you don't really have the feats for it unless you were just going to pick up a twohander and power attack). I do like Channel, as like I said before I'm in the position where a dedicated healer who dabbles in buffs and control is needed, but I'd rather just be an Oracle for that, as the Revelations are much more interesting and useful.
I know some people say that in-battle healing is mostly unnecessary, but that's a matter of the GM. One game I'm in now I'm a 6th level Oracle of the Dark Tapestry. We started at 1. Pretty much from levels 2 to 5 I ended up having to use pretty much every damn turn or every last spell slot healing people, and it's not like they were stupid or un-optimized or that the GM was being a dick, it's just how it worked out. Eventually when we turned 5th he just let me take Channel from the Healing mystery, and I still end up using that all the time in battle, but now I get to throw out some Prayer, Protections, or even Murderous Commands as well ;p
That said, I find Clerics bland. I don't like the domains (mostly uninteresting and a lot of worthless stuff) and I don't like having to stack self buffs to be decent in combat (which for me means I might as well play it as a dedicated caster, so 3/4 BAB is meaningless, and even if it wasn't you don't really have the feats for it unless you were just going to pick up a twohander and power attack). I do like Channel, as like I said before I'm in the position where a dedicated healer who dabbles in buffs and control is needed, but I'd rather just be an Oracle for that, as the Revelations are much more interesting and useful.
Yay murderous command.
|
1) Many people do not like the expected (and most say not-needed) healbot role.
2) Many GM's really encrouch on the players free will because of the religion. "Your god wouldn't allow that." Some is ok and helps immersion. Too much is annoying and frustrating. Even if the GM doesn't do it, some players feel like they should be severly limiting themselves (I do this sometimes).
3) Some that decide to play a full caster want the full on power of a wizard or sorc. The arcane spells have a reputation (deserved or not) that on average they are more powerful.
4) For us old guys that remember the old editions. They weren't very fun back then except being very survivable. The healbot really was necesary. So you couldn't put too much effort into being any other kind of caster unless someone else was willing to be a cleric/healbot at the same time. So they bring back memories of, "Carp, I guess it's my turn to be stuck with the cleric."
5) Some people still get a bit of a guilty/sin feeling for roleplaying the worshiping another religion. I have seen this several times. They are somtimes more open to it if the GM is willing to add modern religions into the game that they can chose and try to gain converts.
While I don't dislike clerics the above is many reasons that have been given to me in many gaming groups post 3/5 for not playing Clerics.
Quicken Channel while a good choice if you use channel energy alot does nothing in terms of other healing spells. If healing was move action as oposed to a standard action a cleric would imo feel less like a Healboot and do more. It also depends on the player. Not every player is going to want to sit back and buff, heal and support the group. If a Cleric does none of those things he can fight with the melee classes except then he has to keep an eye just not on his own character but everyone else.
Another thing not many players want to do. The Domains are just plain boring sometimes and repetive. I'm going to be playing a Cleric of Gozreh in a short one shot game next week. The domains with that god just feel reptive imo. The granted domain powers feel the same. Most of the spells just repeat over and over. At least with 2E and the speciality priest and speheres imo as a Cleric you had more varitey. Versatility is both a burden and a curse. As with the arcane slcassess to much ot remember and once again not every player is up to the task imo.
I think it's really condescending when people pull the " inexperience/less experience player"-card.
Yeah, the real problem isn't players who are inexperienced, but players who are stupid. An intelligent player doesn't actively make it unpleasant for someone to play a cleric by being a crybaby demanding magic healing for every papercut his character gets.
Unfortunately, there are lots of stupid players out there.
Pretty late to the party here, but no one in our group wants to play a cleric - ever.
|
|
Right now my biggest issue with the cleric is as is if I want to make a cleric who calls on his gods allies to aid him in the battlefield (ala summons) he basically has to be either Lawful or evil to pull it off which aggravates me to no end. It's really a pigeon holing endeavor that I really want to see a fix for at least some minor expansions to the list to incorporate CG,CN,NG,LG,and LN to the mix.
