No prob, I have to crash myself then go to work tonight, would you allow that weapon in a first level game you were running?
Tom
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Alright Tom, so here is some more indepth stuff for you.
My suggestion if you are worried, is to only let the Eidolon wield one 2H weapon. This means that the Eidolon will at MAX level, only be able to make 10 attacks in one round, which is still a FRIGHTENING amount of attacks.
Primary Natural Attacks: These attacks are made using the Eidolons full BAB. They do Full Strength damage. When Power attacking with a Primary Natural Attack, you take a -1 penalty to hit and gain +2 to damage. The most powerful Eidolons will only use Primary Natural attacks.
If an Eidolon only has one natural attack (For example, a Bite) and the natural attack is a Primary Attack, then the damage gains a 1 and 1/2 bonus from Strength instead of Full Strength and when Power Attacking, the Eidolon gains a +3 bonus to damage instead of +2.
Secondary Natural Attacks:These attacks take a -5 penalty to hit. This penalty can be reduced to -2 by taking the feat Multiattack. Eidolons get this feat for free. They do 1/2 Strength damage. When Power attacking with a Secondary Natural Attack, you take a -1 penalty to hit and gain +1 to damage.
Likewise, an Eidolon may not make a natural attack if it is wielding a weapon in the limb it would normally use to make that natural attack.
Example: You have an Eidolon who is wielding a Greatsword. This Eidolon has 2 arms and 2 legs, and has 4 claw attacks. When this Eidolon attacks, it may swing it's greatsword and make 2 claw attacks. It cannot make the remain two claw attacks because the other two claws are holding the greatsword.
At max level, an Eidolon has a base attack bonus of 15. That means, if he weilds a 2H weapon, he can make 3 attacks with that weapon, at a +15/+10/+5 progression. Likewise, he can make a total of 7 natural attacks. Since he is using a weapon, these natural attacks are all treated as secondary, which means he takes a -5 Penalty to hit with them. However, since he has the feat "Multiattack" by that level, the penalty is reduced to -2. Therefore, the Eidolon can make a total of TEN attacks, 3 weapon attacks at +15/+10/+5 and 7 Natural attacks at +13
Here is a Sample Full Round attack for a Max Level Eidolon. Assume the Following: The Eidolon has 8 Arms. 2 Arms are wielding a Greatsword and the remaining 6 arms have claws. The Eidolon also has a bite attack. Assume a BAB of 15, Strength score of 20 and Size Medium.
Full Round Attack: Greatsword +20/+15/+10 (2d6 + 7), 6 Claws +18 (1d4 + 2) and Bite +18 (1d6 +2)
However, it get's even trickier. As we talked about, Eidolons can grow extra limbs and because of that, they can wield extra weapons and thus use Two Weapon Fighting rules!
The Two Weapon Fighting rules apply penalties to fighting with a weapon in each hand. Without any modifications, you take a -6 penalty to a weapon you wield in your main hand and a -10 penalty to all off hand weapons. If you take the feat Two Weapon Fighting, this penalty is reduced by -2 on the Main Hand and -6 on the Off hand. This means that both attacks now take a -4 to hit. If you wield a light weapon in the off hand slot, you decrease the penalty by another -2, so now both attacks are only made at a -2.
Eidolons can be tricky because unlike normal PCs, they can have tons of arms. In the Beastiary, there is a Monster Feat called Multi-Weapon Fighting. It is a replacement feat for Two Weapon Fighting for monsters with 3 or more arms. It applies the same reductions that Two Weapon Fighting applies.
Lets take your player's Eidolon. He currently has 4 arms wielding two 2H weapons. Normally, this would be impossible for a PC, but not for an Eidolon. However, just because he has the arms to wield these weapons does NOT mean that he isn't Two Weapon Fighting. Without taking the feat Multi-Weapon Fighting, he is take a -6 penalty to hit with one axe and a -10 Penalty to hit with the other axe. If he were to take the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat, the attack penalty would be a -4 for both axes.
But lets not stop there!
What if he keeps going? Lets say that at Max Level, his Eidolon has 10 arms and is wielding FIVE 2H axes! That means that the 1st axe is made at a -6 penalty, and the remaining FOUR axes are made at a -10 Penalty. Again, Multi-Weapon Fighting reduces these penalties to a -4. But now don't forget that he's got 7 Natural attacks he can make!(Assuming he can afford them with evolutions). That means he could potentially have 12 attacks! And all 7 of those Natural attacks are only going to take -2 Penalty.
You thought that was bad? Now watch the Ultimate Weapon Cheese: The Kali Build (Baby Hekatonkheires)
So the big problem with the build that your player is using is that he's focusing on 2H weapons, and because of that, he will NEVER be able to reduce his attack penalty below a -4. But if he uses LIGHT weapons, he can reduce them all the way down to -2! Thus, the Kali build, which focuses on getting as many arms as possible.
Here is an example of a Max level Kali Build
This build uses the Following:
Half-Elf Summoner with 5 Extra Evolution Points from Favored Class
Biped Base Form w/Stats
STR:32
DEX:18
CON:17
INT:7
WIS:10
CHA:11
Evolutions (31 Pool):
Large Size (4 points)
Limbs (Arms) x 13 (26 Points)
Bite (1 Point)
Limbs (Arms) (Free)
Limbs (Legs) (Free)
Claws (Free)
Important Feats
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Wakizashi
Multi-Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Wakizashi
Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
Double Slice
Gear
TWENTY-EIGHT Wakizashi Swords. Preferably +1. Yeah.
Attack Modifier: +28 (+15 BAB, +11 Strength, +1 from Magic Weapons, +1 Weapon Focus)
Full Round Attack:
28 +1 Wakizashi Attacks at +26, One +1 Wakizashi Attack at +21, One +1 Wakizashi Attack at +16 (1d8 + 11|15-20/x2), 2 Claws +26 (1d6 + 5|x2), Bite +26 (1d8 + 5)
Summary:
As you can see, at max level, this Eidolon has THIRTY-THREE attacks and 30 of those threaten a crit on a 15-20. This is the Ultimate in Eidolon Weapon Cheese.
Obviously, this build is EXTREMELY expensive. Any amount of DR is going to ruin this build's day. Still, this build dominates table time and is very obnoxious to DM. I ban it at my table.
I hope this gives you a better understand of how Eidolon attacks work and what weapon cheese to watch out for. I stick by my suggestion that you should allow the Eidolon to wield ONE 2h weapon. That's more than powerful without being cheesy or dominating table time.
Good Luck with the game!
-El
One problem with a multiple weapon wielding eidolon is that at higher levels you need magic bonuses on the weapon for them to be effective against many higher level monsters -- and you cannot afford too many enchanted weapons. It is often more cost effective to simply get the best Amulet of Mighty Fists that you can and have the eidolon rely on its natural attacks. Multiple weapons severely nerf your natural attacks until you get the Multiattack feat.
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One problem with a multiple weapon wielding eidolon is that at higher levels you need magic bonuses on the weapon for them to be effective against many higher level monsters -- and you cannot afford too many enchanted weapons. It is often more cost effective to simply get the best Amulet of Mighty Fists that you can and have the eidolon rely on its natural attacks. Multiple weapons severely nerf your natural attacks until you get the Multiattack feat.
Exactly. As you will notice, I mentioned that the build I posted needs 28 +1 Wakizashi. That's 56K in gold, 28K if you craft them yourself. If you want +3 Weapons to get through DR Cold Iron/Silver, that's going to cost you 504,000 Gold (252,000 if you craft). Talk about Jaw Dropping.
But then again, so is making 33 attacks in a round.
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Thanks, that is one of the books (naturally) that I don't have, and I just thumbed through it yesterday at the local hobby store, beleave it or not.
What might be your advise on what you would allow in your campaign, and are those "long axes, fairly rare, how much are they?
Tom
Base cost is 50gp. I would assume Dwarven Long Axes are pretty uncommon amongst non Dwarves,given their exotic status(The lore is that they're designed to help Dwarves fight giants). So it might makes sense to use glaives(or one of the fun glaive variants) instead as fundamentally they're the same thing other than d10 vs d12, I'm under the impression the summoner isn't a dwarf (-2 charisma lol). That said Dwarven longaxes do give love to the sorely underused d12; so if your player has a suitable reasoning for why he and his pokemon are familiar with them(Maybe raised by/around Dwarves?) I don't see a problem. Really at the end of the day it's +1 damage average so no biggy...
Sorry it tooka while for the player to get this, so a different one now he is planning on.
He is replacing the free claws with slam, still costs 1 evo per what I read.
Then he is going to not take improved natural armour and replace it with another slam on the second pair of arms.
Then he thinks he now gets 4, 1D8 attacks per round, I don't see it??
Does'nt a slam take 2 arms to do 1D8 damage, so he has 2 attacks in total with two slams per round, right?
Or am I missing something, as he has no claws now to do any other attach, which would have been 1D4.
Cheers, thanks again Ela and MP for going the extra mile, his char is now in the game and will be incombat sooner rather than later.....
Tom
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Sorry it tooka while for the player to get this, so a different one now he is planning on.
He is replacing the free claws with slam, still costs 1 evo per what I read.
Then he is going to not take improved natural armour and replace it with another slam on the second pair of arms.
Then he thinks he now gets 4, 1D8 attacks per round, I don't see it??
Does'nt a slam take 2 arms to do 1D8 damage, so he has 2 attacks in total with two slams per round, right?
Or am I missing something, as he has no claws now to do any other attach, which would have been 1D4.
Cheers, thanks again Ela and MP for going the extra mile, his char is now in the game and will be incombat sooner rather than later.....
Tom
2 Arms support 2 claws or 1 slam. If the eidolon has 4 arms, it can have 2 slams or 4 claws (Claws are the way to go in terms of efficiency). So no, he cannot make 4 slam attacks with what you described. Only 2. If he wishes to have 4 slam attacks, he needs 8 arms.
Edit: Also, if he's starting at level 1, the Eidolon can't even make 4 attacks, as it's limited to 3 natural attacks at level one.
Good to know I am getting the hang of this better, I can feel the player getting frustrated, but if we do this it needs to be right, not power gaming breaking the rules kind of thing.
Hope he is not trying to do this and just making honest mistakes, hard to tell though..
Thanks
Tom
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Summoner is probably the most complicated class to play because you have to be intimately familiar with Spellcasting, Monster Rules and the Eidolon rules. It's a lot to take in.
I would caution against assuming that your players are cheating or cheesing unless they're being overtly obvious. It's a septic and unhealthy mindset to go into a game with, I've seen it firsthand.
And you're getting the hang of it. I can tell; you made the right call on the slam.
Also, when you are looking at builds that you think are suspicious, take a step back and break it down.
If the rules worked as your player argues it does, then a player could spend 2 evolution points to get arms and 1 evolution points to get 2 slam attacks at a 1d8.
If that was the case, why would ANYONE ever take claws? Claws and Slams are both Primary attacks but Eidolon Claws are 1d4 while Eidolon Slams are 1d8. If you could get 2 attacks at 1d8 for the same cost as 2 attacks at 1d4, why would anyone ever take the latter?
I hear ya, I've seen power gamers before, the players know I am new to PF, then the comment on "can you handle a Summoner" when I asked about the class he will take for the game.... kind of thing, then 2 builds and he gets it wrong still, but I did as well on some things.
But I see what you mean, its a PBP game to so all I have to go on are his posts.
Intent can be very hard to judge on those as I don't know the guy, but I help as best I can.
The game is about to hit its first big VTT combat scene, 2 of the players and an NPC are tracking a wagon convoy heading to Sandpoint for the festival. And the Summoner is in one of the wagons, heading there after his parents died and just found out about his powers. He is looking for more info on his Eidolon and Sandpoint is the closest place.
I need to get this build all wrapped up, otherwise I'm not to sure what will happen when one of the monster groups ambushs the wagon train beofre going to "crash" the festival.
They (Goblin group) have one wagon already, unknown to the party members, the last one in the train was taken over, and the 2 other players just found a body (from said wagon) and why they are tracking the wagon train in the first place. While they were heading back themselves from a Sandpoint Devil "hunt" from a rumor.
The other player and an NPC is in town enjoying the festival games (he was on a 2 week vacation so that worked out in the end), at the moment....
Oh brother, but I hope to get it all settled out soon and really begin the campaign!!
Tom
Skimmed but I didn't think you could have claws on feet
OK, he picked the 2 slam attack, next he picked as a feat Power attack.
My one question here is this slam considered a "touch" attack?
If so then this feat is kind of waisted (but thats just me), if not it should be nice, as I understand it.
-1 for the two slams to hit
If hit then a 2+ to damage rolls, then increaed by 50%, this slam is a primary attack? I think so no prob there.
BUT the next part in the CRb
"or a primary natural weapon attack that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on the damage rolls."
Is a slam a natural weapons attack, it is with the Eidolond hands.....
So I have a 1D8 for sure, then add in the 2+ TR damage of a 16 STR, then I would add in(if Legal) another 2+ damage tnem another 1 for the 1-1/2 STR bonus the CRb talks about?
Thanks
Tom
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Slam is not a touch attack. No natural attack is as far as I am aware. Touch attacks are almost exclusively spells.
He can use Power attack with Slam, but Slam does not get the 1 1/2 bonus from STR or Power Attack.
There are 2 ways an Eidolon can get a natural attack with a 1 1/2 bonus from STR or Power Attack
1st: The Eidolon takes the Bite Evolution Twice. The 1st time the Eidolon gets a bite, and the second time, the Bite does 1 1/2 STR damage instead of STR damage.
2nd: The Eidolon has just ONE natural attack. Not that it only makes 1 Natural attack, but that it only has one natural attack. This is generally a bad idea and not a good route to go. Look to option 1.
With Every natural attack it makes, the Eidolon with deal STR damage, and the Power Attack Trade is -1 to hit for +2 to damage. If he takes the Bite evolution twice, then the Power Attack trade for the bite is -1 to hit and +1 to damage.
Likewise, if he has secondary attacks (Pincers, Wing Buffets, Tentacles) then the attack only deals 1/2 STR damage and the Power Attack Trade is -1 to hit and +1 to damage.
The Eidolon you describe with a STR of 16 has a +3 Bonus from it's STR
Therefore, it has 2 Slams. Each Slam has the following damage (1d8 + 3) and if he takes a -1 Penalty from Power attack, the Damage is (1d8 + 5)
Incidentally, this is why the claws are better:
4 Claws (1d4 + 5) = 36 Max Damage
or
2 Slams (1d8 + 5) = 26 Max Damage
Thanks Elam, I'll see what he wants to do now, trying to think ahead on what else he may or may not want, thinks he can do.
A question of my own, could he attack multiple targets(IF they were next to each other in the squares surrounding him) with these claw attacks or just the one target he picks?
Tom
OOPS, he would have 3 claw attacks as max at level 1 is 3 naturals. I'm very curious if he will change anything or we are done with his Eidolon.
Hope so
Tom
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OOPS, he would have 3 claw attacks as max at level 1 is 3 naturals. I'm very curious if he will change anything or we are done with his Eidolon.
Hope so
Tom
Oops, good catch. Still, more attacks are always better because you get more of the Flat bonus damage.
I warn you that a summoner by the rules may completely change up his Eidolon's Evolutions every time he levels (Feats and Skills DO NOT CHANGE). He also gets a spell at high level that lets him spend 1 day and can permanently change his Eidolon's Evolutions. He can also use spells to give his Eidolon Temporary evolutions.
As for Multiple Targets, I'm not exactly sure.
In my game, I allow players to attack multiple targets, but I make them declare and divide up their attacks before rolling.
Example: A player has 5 attacks and can hit 2 monsters. If he just starts swinging on one monster and kills it in 3 hits, I don't let him get those 2 extra hits on the other monster.
But if he says before he rolls that he's going to attack monster A with his 1st two attacks and monster B with his last 3, then rolls, that I allow.
That's just my houserule, It has served me fine for years, I don't know what the book's rule is.
claws only can apply to legs once, according to d20pfsrd.
I thought the claws on the feet were for rake attacks.
By RAW, the limitation is that you can put claws on only one pair of legs -- not that you cannot attack with claws on your sole pair of legs. Do any bipedal monsters in any of the bestiaries attack with their feet? I don't recall whether any such monsters exist -- but just one would be enough.
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No reason they can't add the claws, lots of reasons they can't use those claws on every attack sequence.
If it has to stand on them, it is using them. There's a reason dire lions don't get 4 claw attacks in a normal attack sequence.
The rules state you can't use a natural attack if you're using the limb that delivers that attack to hold a manufactured weapon. Most folks would expand this to also count if they were holding a shield in that limb, for instance. And its not a huge leap to infer that it also applies if they have to stand on those limbs. Just like climbing limits what limbs you can use to attack with.
Arguments can be made either way, I merely support this particular line of thought. The OP was just looking for advice as a GM inexperienced with summoners.
I see the point, but I think that there is a difference between saying that an eidolon can't make a claw attack because it's holding a weapon and saying it can't make a claw attack because it's standing on that leg. The difference being that while I can't make the claw attack with my arm without dropping my weapon, I can easily kick out with a leg while remaining standing.
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By RAW, the limitation is that you can put claws on only one pair of legs -- not that you cannot attack with claws on your sole pair of legs. Do any bipedal monsters in any of the bestiaries attack with their feet? I don't recall whether any such monsters exist -- but just one would be enough.
There's the Deinonychus.
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In my game, I allow players to attack multiple targets, but I make them declare and divide up their attacks before rolling.
Example: A player has 5 attacks and can hit 2 monsters. If he just starts swinging on one monster and kills it in 3 hits, I don't let him get those 2 extra hits on the other monster.
But if he says before he rolls that he's going to attack monster A with his 1st two attacks and monster B with his last 3, then rolls, that I allow.
That's just my houserule, It has served me fine for years, I don't know what the book's rule is.
Some people do this for speed and ease of play. And it often makes sense, especially when it's a horde of goons firing a volley of arrows across a large distance. They wouldn't all wait for the results of their mates before picking their own target.
Official RAW is that the attacker can roll to hit and damage with each attack in order, and see the results of this damage before picking the target of the next attack.
So if it has 4 attacks, it can say "I'll claw this guy till he drops", roll attack 1, damage 1, attack 2, damage 2, attack 3 and damage 3 <enemy drops> "change target", roll attack 4 vs new opponent.
You're even allowed to begin what you think will need to be a full attack, get a lucky blow that drops the enemy on the first attack, then treat the attack as being a single attack action, so still move.
Obviously this doesn't work if it took two swings or more, then you've locked yourself into a full attack action. And you have to apply any penalties for Multiattack/Rapid Shot/Two Weapon Fighting, even if you find you only needed to use the one attack.
This is spelled out on these boards, but I don't have the link to hand.
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Do not ignore the fact that both the eidolon and the summoner have a big glowing rune on their forheads as long as the eidolon is around.
Do not let the eidolon be mistaken for a normal version of whatever it happens to look like (It may look have the general shape and appearance of a cat, or a person, or an octopus, or whatever, but should obviously not be anything of the sort (not to say everyone knows what it is... just that its not a proper cat/person/octopus))
The rune can be hidden through mundane means. Under the right circumstances, any irregularities in appearance can also be hidden in the same manner. This is probably easiest when your eidolon is bipedal since a snake in an overcoat still looks odd.
And, of course, there's nothing preventing the summoner from explaining away the eidolon's appearance via a decent bluff skill and calling it an "Animated Construct". "Nope, I'm not Fildor the Summoner. I'm Fildor, Master of Mighty Golems! Well, golem, anyway."
Plus, it says that the eidolon shares a glowing run that appears on the summoner's forehead. DOesn't say it has to be on the eidolon's forehead. So, it could easily be on their back, etc. If your eidolon is of a form that can wear clothes (not armor, but IMO clothes not stated as armor would not bother the summoner) then they could have the rune on like their stomach then wear a shirt.
EDIT: Eeek I cast a necromantic spell.... at least this isn't the old Pirates of the Burning Sea forums, or I'd be banned LOL (The head forum manager was crazy about necroposting... any thread older than a month woud get you a warning, and she'd post "Necroposting is bad, m'kay?" and lock the thread. If you did it again, especially on a thread 3 months or older, you'd get a 30 day ban.
Ok, I gave a basic read over of all the posts on here, and my head still hurts thinking about dwarven axes and multiple limbs, so I'm just going to give you my experience playing as a summoner with my eidolon, which was a Tankdalon by any other name. Now, the thing that I found about the class is that, while people complain about how it's "Two classes in one" and all that, I found it to be more like a subpar version off two classes. I mean, it's a spellcaster, true, but with waaaay fewer spell slots than any other spellcasting class, and its a secondary caster, so it gets spells every three levels, so blah, and while the eidolon could be categorized as a fighter, lets be frank, it's like a pet creepy crawly (Mine was less creepy crawly and more smashy and bashy, but that's besides the point). It isn't a fighter, it's what the fighter of the party tanks and deals with in a daily encounter, unless you seriously power game the hell out of it. I took everything I could to make my eidolon in a ogre smashing, dragon wrestling scaly monster out of the depths of hell, and I have to say I like what I created, and I didn't power game it, but I would by no means call it another character of the same level as us, sure it'd hand out an ass kicking to a lower level fighter and co. true, but our party paladin would have handled it in a straight up fight, without a crazy amount of risk. It's like putting a party up against a creature with less pc levels then them. Yeah, it'd be a challenge, but it wouldn't be a serious death risk to even one of the party unless they got really crummy rolls, and the entire party's shred it. The same could be said of the summoner himself. Sure, I took as many battlefield control spells as I could, but in the end I couldn't take the little niche spells or have the versatility that really makes a good caster. So I can say with certainty that the summoner's strength lies not in it being two classes, but the coordination of two weaker then average classes to crush everything in their way. I didn't choose it because it was op when you power game it, but because I love the thought of some angry hobgoblins charging in yelling "Get 'im, he's just a caster!" and then suddenly having this great, hulking THING rising our of the remains of this ogre it just twisted Chewbacca style into a warty green pretzel behind me, and seeing the fear in their eyes as it lurched towards them, hulking arms raised as I summon a wall of stone out of the ground behind them to prevent their escape, and I snicker at the thought of the party walking into a crowded bar, and the local bully abruptly decide to threaten a drink out of the thin fellow with the staff, and at a snap of my fingers having that same huge monster duck its head and walk into the bar, and hear the entire room fall silent as the bully stutters and blusters his way back to his seat.
P.S. I see no problem with necroposting, since we're just bringing a good conversation back to life, not some flesh-eating zombie.