GM with a Summoner, any tips on how their Eidolon works?


Advice

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Never ran or had one in my games before, I read through the APG on the Summoner Character. But what should I expect, what can an Eidolon do/not do, what type it maybe,look like? I now it depends on the PC but he needs help as well. I am running the Runelords Aniv Burnt Offerings but will go through the whole campaign I beleave with him.

Cheers, thanks, any and all advise most welcome!!

Tom

Silver Crusade

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Most important part about Summoners and Eidolons: Summoners share magic item slots with their Eidolon. If the summoner wears a belt, the Eidolon can't. Likewise, if the Eidolon wears a ring, the summoner may only wear one ring. Note that a player may combine [u]similar[/u] magic items, like rings, by adding the ability one one magic item to another. Therefore, I could add the effect of a ring of Feather Fall to a Ring of Freedom of Movement. To do this, I must pay 1.5 x the cost of the Ring of Feather Fall in addition to the cost of the Ring of Freedom of Movement.

The Rules are unclear as to whether the Eidolon summons with his gear or not. I allow the Eidolon to keep his gear as summoned monsters via the spell summon with their gear. That's a GM decision though, so you get to decide. It won't affect combat much because summoning the Eidolon isn't a good idea in combat. However, it does cause your summoner some grief in having to lug around the Eidolon's Equipment.

Calling an Eidolon takes 1 minute/10 Rounds. This is important because an Eidolon goes away every time the summoner sleeps or is knocked unconscious.

Eidolons are intelligent and can speak any language the summoner can.

Eidolons are classified as summoned creatures but use modified rules. Protection from Evil like spells will not stop them. You must take them to negative Con to kill them. Dismissal and Banishment work on them as normal.

The Eidolon does not heal over time. You must channel or use a healing spell to heal it. If it get's dismissed and re-summoned, it has the same health it had when it was dismissed. The only exception is death. If you kill his Eidolon, it has half it's health when it get's re-summoned. However, a summoner must wait a day to re-summon a slain eidolon.

Every time a summoner levels, he can completely redo the eidolon's evolutions, but not feats or skills. So expect that it will change a lot. Also, he gets spells that mess with the eidolon's evolutions temporarily (and at later levels, permanently). Note that if he changes the eidolon's evolutions in a way that makes it no longer able to use a feat, the feat goes inactive until the Eidolon qualifies for it again.

The Eidolon has a limit on it's natural attacks that increases as he levels. Make sure that the player is not breaking that limit. Also, natural attacks do not gain extra attacks as your BAB increases. You get one attack with each natural weapon.

Understand the difference between Primary and Secondary Nat Attacks. Primary are made at full BAB and gain full STR mod to damage. If a creature has only ONE (I repeat, only ONE) natural attack and it's a Primary, it deals 1 and 1/2 strength damage. Secondary natural attacks take a -5 to hit and only deal 1/2 STR mod to damage. Note that at level 9, the eidolon gets the Feat Multiattack as a free feat, which changes the secondary natural attack penalty from -5 to -2. (The Eidolon must have 3 natural attacks to get the feat. If it does not, it get's a third natural attack at a -5 to hit bonus.)

Note that an Eidolon may wield a weapon AND make natural attacks at the same time. These weapon attacks do NOT count against the attack limit and the Eidolon gets iterative attacks with the weapon. However, when attacking with a weapon and using natural attacks, the Eidolon treats ALL natural attacks as Secondary attacks. Also, note that obviously if the eidolon is wielding a weapon with a limb with a natural attack, it cannot make that natural attack.

Note that the Biped base form gains 5ft of reach every time it's size is increased. This is VERY powerful.

The Reach evolution is unclear as to whether it applies to one attack or all attacks of one type (IE, Reach (Claws) applies to all claws). In the UM summoner section, they have examples and in one example, they apply the reach evolution to one attack type, rather than just one attack. This brings Reach in line with all the other evolutions that affect all natural attacks of the same type. This is my interpretation, but as written, the rule is unclear.

Also, the Reach evolution does not state this, but I disallow the Eidolon to use the Reach evolution to gain reach with a weapon. I think the Reach Evolution was intended to apply to natural attacks.

If your player wishes to wield a weapon with his eidolon, I suggest that he burns one of the Eidolon's feats rather than spend evolution points. It's a lot more efficient.

Note that through evolutions, an eidolon can get a lot of abilities like burrow, blindsight, and scent, which aren't commonly available to PCs, so if the summoner takes those evolutions, make sure you know the rules.

At high levels, Eidolons can get ridiculous strength scores that will put martial characters to shame.

Certain evolutions are restricted by the base form of the Eidolon.


Nice breakdown! Helped me out too with the explanation of primary/secondary natural attacks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:
Nice breakdown! Helped me out too with the explanation of primary/secondary natural attacks.

Get intimate with your Bestiary. Until then Primary attacks hit with the normal BAB as determined by Hit dice. Secondary attacks hit at BAB -5.

You are going to find as a DM that the Summoner bar none is the primary PITA of a class to DM. You've got to watch out for the newbie player who WILL get his eidolon's build wrong and the munchkin who'll will conveniently forget an evoloution point cost or two or simply put together a package that is not valid.

And we're not even touching on the Summon Monster spells I make summoning players prepare in advance, the types of monsters they're going to summon. As opposed to spending ten minutes each term shopping around bestiary stats.


LazarX wrote:
And we're not even touching on the Summon Monster spells I make summoning players prepare in advance, the types of monsters they're going to summon. As opposed to spending ten minutes each term shopping around bestiary stats.

Hmm... the player of the summoner in my group has peppered one instance of his browser with shortcuts to the beasties on d20pfsrd (we lay at his place). Computer is running anyway, cause I use the screen for displaying portraits of the NPCs they are talking to / pics of the baddies they are fighting.

Does that count?

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Buri wrote:
Nice breakdown! Helped me out too with the explanation of primary/secondary natural attacks.

Get intimate with your Bestiary. Until then Primary attacks hit with the normal BAB as determined by Hit dice. Secondary attacks hit at BAB -5.

You are going to find as a DM that the Summoner bar none is the primary PITA of a class to DM. You've got to watch out for the newbie player who WILL get his eidolon's build wrong and the munchkin who'll will conveniently forget an evoloution point cost or two or simply put together a package that is not valid.

And we're not even touching on the Summon Monster spells I make summoning players prepare in advance, the types of monsters they're going to summon. As opposed to spending ten minutes each term shopping around bestiary stats.

Agreed. It's a very munchkin friendly class and is probably tied with Gunslinger for most powerful class.

It would also like to add a few things to my list:

The feat Augmented Summoning does NOT affect an Eidolon who is called normally. It DOES affect the Eidolon when the summoner uses the spell Summon Eidolon to summon it. (This is because it is a summon spell with a short duration)

The feat Augmented summoning DOES apply to monsters summoned using the summoner's Summon Monster spell-like ability. (And is a smart feat selection as such)

Happy Camper's Ultimate Magic Character sheets include a sheet for summon monster stats. I suggest making the player put their go-to summons on that sheet so they aren't constantly looking through beastiaries.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Midnight_Angel wrote:
LazarX wrote:
And we're not even touching on the Summon Monster spells I make summoning players prepare in advance, the types of monsters they're going to summon. As opposed to spending ten minutes each term shopping around bestiary stats.

Hmm... the player of the summoner in my group has peppered one instance of his browser with shortcuts to the beasties on d20pfsrd (we lay at his place). Computer is running anyway, cause I use the screen for displaying portraits of the NPCs they are talking to / pics of the baddies they are fighting.

Does that count?

Whatever works. The key thing is that unprepared summoner players are one of the major bogs that can drag a game session to a halt.


LazarX wrote:
The key thing is that unprepared summoner players are one of the major bogs that can drag a game session to a halt.

Agreed. Bonus points if the group not only contains a master summoner, but the cleric chimes in with summonings of his own.


Thanks, so the Eidolon is a strong companion like being, limited at times but can become very powerfull at times, if built right.

How would the world at large view creatures like these tey see.

I would suspct they would be very uncommon, and scare the hell out of the regular population. PC's less so as they are adventurers.

As to their forms, they can't be a specific form but a more general, one, besides the basic Bi, Quad and serp sizes, the sky is the limit of the PC's and what the GM allows?

Cheers

Tom


If you are new to summoners read the eidolons entry on every power. If the eidolon ever feels omgwftbbq over powered mistakes may have been made. Also go over with your player his general eidolon plan so it is not a surprise.

Silver Crusade

TRDG wrote:

Thanks, so the Eidolon is a strong companion like being, limited at times but can become very powerfull at times, if built right.

How would the world at large view creatures like these tey see.

I would suspct they would be very uncommon, and scare the hell out of the regular population. PC's less so as they are adventurers.

As to their forms, they can't be a specific form but a more general, one, besides the basic Bi, Quad and serp sizes, the sky is the limit of the PC's and what the GM allows?

Cheers

Tom

I think that how the world views an Eidolon is up you as the GM. If it's a very high fantasy world, Eidolons may not be that uncommon. If it's low fantasy, then yeah, some nasty serpentine beast slithering through town might upset a few people.

Basically, think how a town would react to an animal companion, then step it up a notch.

Also, note that while having a huge Eidolon is cool, it's probably not going to Fit in most places in town, or possibly even be able to walk down the street if it's a small enough town.

that's another one, Eidolon size is important. Mind you, you can easily manage a huge eidolon with the Reduce Person spell, but there will be times where a huge eidolon is gonna be a problem

As for what form they take

they can't be a specific form, correct.

I give a lot of freedom to players in how their eidolon looks, that's one of the great things about eidolons. The only rule I have is that the final form must somehow relate back to the base form and must follow from the Evolutions they select, so an eidolon with the tail evolution must have a tail.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The class has a lot of page count on it in the APG alone. You're going to need to get familiar with all of it.


RE: Augment Summoning

Even though eidolons are treated as summoned creatures? You have to go through a minute long ritual which goes above and beyond most spells and the duration would be 'until dead or summoner is unconscious.'

Silver Crusade

One thing to note: If the world is going to be hostile in general to Eidolons, make sure the player knows this going into the game.

Don't punish the player for assuming that it would be fine to take a sunday morning stroll through town with their Eidolon and then wind up sicking the town guard on them.

The player character lives in this world and is savvy; since HE would know that walking around with his Eidolon is a bad idea, so should the player.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TRDG wrote:

Thanks, so the Eidolon is a strong companion like being, limited at times but can become very powerfull at times, if built right.

How would the world at large view creatures like these tey see.

I would suspct they would be very uncommon, and scare the hell out of the regular population. PC's less so as they are adventurers.

As to their forms, they can't be a specific form but a more general, one, besides the basic Bi, Quad and serp sizes, the sky is the limit of the PC's and what the GM allows?

Cheers

Tom

How would your world react if a druid walked into town with a baby t-rex in tow? Start there and work your way up. It also depends on the form your summoner chooses for the eidolon. He could keep it looking like a somewhat abnormal dog or wolf, in which case reaction would be minimal. He could also have it looking like a giant dragon winged 6 headed, 8 armed tentacle monster. Likely garnering a different response.

Their forms can be just about anything as long as they dont look exactly like something else. Its up to you but I allow anything from a wolf with extra long fangs and a over long muzzle, to the above mentioned tentacle beast.

Silver Crusade

Buri wrote:

RE: Augment Summoning

Even though eidolons are treated as summoned creatures? You have to go through a minute long ritual which goes above and beyond most spells and the duration would be 'until dead or summoner is unconscious.'

Augmented Summoning Reads:

Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

Summoning the Eidolon is not a summoning spell for the purposes of the rules. In fact, it's actually called "Calling" the Eidolon, not "Summoning."

For augmented summoning to apply to a spell, it must say in the spell description

School: Conjuration (Summoning)

In fact, the only reason that Augmented Summoning works on the spell-like abilities of the summoner is Developer Fiat. Normally feats don't apply to spell like abilities (learned that myself the hard way) but because of Developer Fiat, that specific feat works on that specific spell like ability.


I have a change to make. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:

RE: Augment Summoning

Even though eidolons are treated as summoned creatures? You have to go through a minute long ritual which goes above and beyond most spells and the duration would be 'until dead or summoner is unconscious.'

Yes... even so. Because the ritual is not a summon spell and outside of the purview of the feat. Quite frankly it would have been totally kosher for the devs to rule that Augmented Summoning does not apply to the Summon Eidolon spell, holding it strictly to Summon Monster.


Elamdri wrote:
Normally feats don't apply to spell like abilities (learned that myself the hard way)

Huh? I was under the impression that metamagic feats don't work with spell-like abilities (since there is no level to increase), while things like Spell Focus worked just fine.

Silver Crusade

Midnight_Angel wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Normally feats don't apply to spell like abilities (learned that myself the hard way)
Huh? I was under the impression that metamagic feats don't work with spell-like abilities (since there is no level to increase), while things like Spell Focus worked just fine.

That's what I thought too, but when I posted that in forums about a week ago, I got bull-rushed by about 18 people telling me I was wrong and linking all this rules and FAQ text.


Link? I'd like to read that as well.

Silver Crusade

Buri wrote:
Link? I'd like to read that as well.

This is the reply to me.

There are links in that post to the specific rules posts.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Midnight_Angel wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Normally feats don't apply to spell like abilities (learned that myself the hard way)
Huh? I was under the impression that metamagic feats don't work with spell-like abilities (since there is no level to increase), while things like Spell Focus worked just fine.

Technically speaking, Augmented Summoning is not a metamagic feat. It's a general feat.

Silver Crusade

I think the problem with spell-like abilities stems from the Summoner's Handbook on Giant in the Playground.

If you read the FAQ on Augmented Summoning, the Guide has the following quote:

"Answer: Consensus is yes. From Gjorbond on the Pathfinder boards: "There have been several threads on this. If you have a spell like ability, any feat you have that can modify the spell works, with the exception of metamagic feats which require the spell to use a different level spell slot.""


Thank you, sir.

Silver Crusade

Buri wrote:
Thank you, sir.

Np


Read all the info twice now from the book, I guess in the end we will see what the player is really "made of". I'd like to see some interaction and a storyline on the Summoners Iodolon, part of his soul by a certain point? What might he Iod want out of this "relationship"? between combat.

I'd like to see where the player takes it, before I step in and add a storyline.

I'm sure I'll be back for more advise/info as the game progresses, thank for the help!!

Well it is Burnt Offerings so to me Sandpoint does'nt see to much of this, now if it was in Magnimar.......

Warned hi in advance to figure out his general summons before we play to save time as well.

Tom

Silver Crusade

Well Eidolons and summoners are linked via their souls, so really they should have the same desires, thoughts, ect. Eidolons and Summoners should not be diametrically opposed.

How a summoner and eidolon came to be bonded is mostly an RP aspect.

Good luck with the campaign!


I'd advise not to ignore the 'fluff' descriptive stuff.

Do not ignore the fact that both the eidolon and the summoner have a big glowing rune on their forheads as long as the eidolon is around.

Do not let the eidolon be mistaken for a normal version of whatever it happens to look like (It may look have the general shape and appearance of a cat, or a person, or an octopus, or whatever, but should obviously not be anything of the sort (not to say everyone knows what it is... just that its not a proper cat/person/octopus))

You might want to come up with some criteria ahead of time for NPC's to know just what the eidolon is, or what the summoner is. Probably some sort of knowledge (arcana) roll modified by how common the class is... let your player know what you're setting this DC at ahead of time.

Then you can use this to allow npc's to react appropriately without the player assuming you're using GM knowledge.

Also, in regards to a previous poster mentioning what happens to gear on the eidolon when it is dismissed/summoned... if you allow for the gear to stay with the eidolon... pay attention to what this causes to happen for NPC summoners... as the eidolon will return when it is killed or the summoner dies, and take all its gear with it... thus you theoretically create a way for an NPC to not allow any of its gear to be taken. You might want to add a house rule that if the Eidolon is sent back to its home plane abruptly (ie: not dismissed) its gear gets left behind, but it hangs onto it if dismissed normally. This will also help curb using the eidolon for suicide missions. 8P
Also, make sure you define 'gear'... else the summoner could use the eidolon and dismissing of it, as a way to transport some things you'd rather it not, just by picking it up, and getting dismissed with it in tow. (Wait, I'm going to jail? Ok, I give my eidolon all my stuff, dismiss it, then will summon it later in jail, and have all my stuff back.)

Of course, you avoid all this just by saying the eidolon is summoned with nothing, and you have to hold onto its equipment when its gone.
But just be aware of the consequences of either option, and perhaps place some limitations in before hand.


EvilMinion wrote:

Do not ignore the fact that both the eidolon and the summoner have a big glowing rune on their forheads as long as the eidolon is around.

Do not let the eidolon be mistaken for a normal version of whatever it happens to look like (It may look have the general shape and appearance of a cat, or a person, or an octopus, or whatever, but should obviously not be anything of the sort (not to say everyone knows what it is... just that its not a proper cat/person/octopus))

The rune can be hidden through mundane means. Under the right circumstances, any irregularities in appearance can also be hidden in the same manner. This is probably easiest when your eidolon is bipedal since a snake in an overcoat still looks odd.

And, of course, there's nothing preventing the summoner from explaining away the eidolon's appearance via a decent bluff skill and calling it an "Animated Construct". "Nope, I'm not Fildor the Summoner. I'm Fildor, Master of Mighty Golems! Well, golem, anyway."


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A hat of disguise is useful for making a size Medium eidolon fit in. Since that item lets the eidolon appear as a creature of its own size and type (Outsider, in this case), you can disguise any size Medium eidolon as an aasimar. Only the glowing rune or the scarf covering the rune remain to possibly give the summoner and the eidolon away.


EvilMinion wrote:
This will also help curb using the eidolon for suicide missions. 8P

Or he could just enforce the range limitations of the eidolon...

Your idea breaks at least one spell's purpose.

Don't forget that the eidolon is dismissed when sleeping, not just while under sleep effects. Generally this means they have to be resummoned each morning.

Silver Crusade

In my games, Eidolons are summoned with Equipment, ie, things worn on the body

I don't let them summon with things like bags of holding filled with items and other things like that

They get the items they wear and a weapon if they wield one. Nothing else.


He has'nt decided yet what it will actually be yet. Even thinking that out of combat I might run it, as I want it to have some kind of personality, background, part of the group/party dynamic, if you know what I mean.

When I get him into the game and he summons it, that will be the first time for him, sohe kind of doen'nt know what to evacly expect on what he is getting besides the basics.

For the Eidolon to develope his/her/its own personality, the Summoner is True Neutral, so somewhat limiting.

But having its own moyives on what it actually wants out of its relationship with the Summoner, and perhaps other party members, LOL

I guess I will have to see how the PC wants to play it, it it goes along the lines of, "I wannna Gold Dragon like thing to slaughter all of my enemies while I collect all the treasure..you know I'm ging to have a problem....

I kind of knew from the start I might have to keep a tight leash on this, but wanted to try it, just like the player.

We will see how it all works out in the end. Not to worried in the beginning as starting out at first level tthe party has basic equipment, and not much, if anything to give to the level 1 Eid. They or shall I say the Summoner is going to have to really work for any gear to enhanse his new creature, and play it "right" so to speak, not a power gaming sort of thing.

Cheers

Tom

Silver Crusade

I think running it out of combat is not a terrible idea, but I would have two caveats to that:

1) it should never act to dick over the summoner. It's loyal to him and in fact, is linked to him.

2) You should let him take over control when he wants, as there are a lot of useful things you can do with the eidolon out of combat.

I agree that you should see how it plays out. And yes, keeping a tight leash is a good idea :)

Liberty's Edge

Dotting this thread, with an example Summoner of my own.


Ya, trying to think of an extra hook for it, say a True Neutral god thinks that if the Runelord Rises it will upset the balance(LOL) in the area. So when the Summoner does his first Eido Summoning that god sent a little something with the outsider.

In bigger battles the god may send a little help to the being, say an extra 1+ to hit or damage, if the Summoner is really helping the "cause".

Then the outsider may interact with the rest of the party, as per alignments compared to its. Could be some interesting campfire chats.

If the Summoner is abusing or not acting in a Neutal way or pleasing to that specific god then maybe he withdraws his "favor" in a smaller fight, subtle but noticable.

Just thinking out loud here.

As the Summoner levels with his outsider he can feel more of "something" other than the Eid, stuff like that to make it more interesting for the player, and the party in general.

Has to be done just right and the PC can never really know til the end.... What specifically is up.

Alternativly maybe the outsider is "moody" at times, but with the best of intensions, a chart to roll from as to his temperment, at specific times.

Cheers, lots of ways to go,if I do it just right and don't under or over play it.

Tom


Eidolons and items was answered by James Jacobs. Basically he said that a eidolons one gear goes with it, but anything carried is dropped when it dies/dismissed.

That being said- triple check the build. Read the class carefully.

Don't allow a Sythethist or a Master Summoner.


OK, this is what he came up with

BIPED

HP-10 (Igave him 3 dice rolls, I'm to nice, LOL)

True Neutral

BAB 1+

Medium size, speed 30 feet

2+ Natural armour, and another 2+ with the Natural armour revolution.

Fort, good, Ref , bad, will Good.

Attack 2 claws 1D4 damage each

STR-16, DEX-12, CON 13, INT-7, WIS-10, CHA-11

Skill s- 2 in Bluff and 2 in stealth

Feats, Exotic weapons, he has the 1+ BAN so he meets the requirement I think?

Evolutin, Limbs (arms), Improved natural armour.

So he wants a second pair of hands, that do nothing at the moment, as he got Arms and legs for his free evolutions .

Has 2 Dwarven longaxes equipped, I have no idea what they are, not in any boks I have, even the Ultimate Equipment book I just picked up, just regular Dwarven axe of 1D8 damage???

Max atack 3, so he dows get 3 attacks or just the two with said axes that I may or may not allow??

Special, dark vision, link, shre spells.

He did not state a form yet

Did I miss anything here guys?

Thanks

Tom


Two mistakes:

Eidolons don't roll for HP from their first hit die, just like PC's don't actually roll for their first hit die. The difference is that PC's automatically roll the maximum value because their hit die comes from a class; since the Eidolon hit die is racial, they automatically roll half max instead.

You can't have more ranks in a skill than you have hit dice, so no putting two ranks in each skill with only 1 HD. The four ranks need to be in four different skills.

Max attacks applies to natural attacks, not attacks with manufactured weapons. But if he wants to attack with either of those axes, any natural attacks made as part of that full-attack action are secondary (-5 to hit). And if he wants to attack with both of those axes, that's two-weapon fighting, so he'll be taking a -6 to hit with one of them and a -10 to hit with the other. So he won't be outstanding in combat for now (actually, it's kind of weak - the extra pair of arms really doesn't help at all at first level), but later he'll sprout more arms to attack with and be able to attack with all of them for low penalties due to Multiweapon Fighting - it looks like he's going for a Kali build.

Silver Crusade

TRDG wrote:

OK, this is what he came up with

BIPED

HP-10 (Igave him 3 dice rolls, I'm to nice, LOL)

True Neutral

BAB 1+

Medium size, speed 30 feet

2+ Natural armour, and another 2+ with the Natural armour revolution.

Fort, good, Ref , bad, will Good.

Attack 2 claws 1D4 damage each

STR-16, DEX-12, CON 13, INT-7, WIS-10, CHA-11

This all looks good.

TRDG wrote:


Skill s- 2 in Bluff and 2 in stealth

He cannot do this. The Eidolon only has one Hit Die and you may only put ranks into a skill up to your hit die. So he may have 4 skills with 1 rank in each, but he cannot have 2 skills with 2 ranks in each because he only has the one Hit Die.

TRDG wrote:


Feats, Exotic weapons, he has the 1+ BAN so he meets the requirement I think?

He qualifies, yes

TRDG wrote:


Evolutin, Limbs (arms), Improved natural armour.

This is also legal.

TRDG wrote:


So he wants a second pair of hands, that do nothing at the moment, as he got Arms and legs for his free evolutions .

Not True. Currently he has 4 arms. What he is trying to do (I suspect) is wield his 2 axes in his arms and put the claws on his feet.

TRDG wrote:


Has 2 Dwarven longaxes equipped, I have no idea what they are, not in any boks I have, even the Ultimate Equipment book I just picked up, just regular Dwarven axe of 1D8 damage???

I think he means Dwarven Waraxe, which is a one-handed weapon that does 1d10 of damage and has a x3 crit. However, these are NOT light weapons and if he is wielding two of them (even if he's using two arms to wield each one) he's still going to take the 2 weapon fighting penalties.

For him, I think that's going to be a -6 on the Main hand and a -10 on the offhand. Very steep

TRDG wrote:


Max atack 3, so he dows get 3 attacks or just the two with said axes that I may or may not allow??

Right now, he is wielding 2 axes and has 2 claws on his feet. He can swing one axe at a -6 penalty and can swing another axe at a -10 penalty. He can also make the two claw attacks, but if he uses his weapons, he must make both the claw attacks at a -5 penalty. So in total, he can make 4 attacks. One at a -6, one at a -10, and two at a -5.

TRDG wrote:


Special, dark vision, link, shre spells.

These are fine

TRDG wrote:


He did not state a form yet

I thought you said it was a Biped. Or do you mean it's appearance?

TRDG wrote:


Did I miss anything here guys?

Thanks

Tom

The skills need to be fixed. He has a problem with his weapons. Right now he has got 4 arms, wielding 2 axes, and 2 feet with claws. The issue is that even though he has 4 arms, that does not get around the two weapon fighting penalties.

If he wants to use multiple weapons, what he needs to do is take the feat Multi-Weapon Fighting. It requires a Dex of 13 and 3 or more arms.

It works JUST like two weapon fighting but for creatures with 3 or more arms.

So as an example

Lets say he has 4 Dwarven Waraxes instead of 2, one in each hand

He can swing all 4, but he takes a -6 penalty to the 1st and a -10 penalty to the other three.

If he takes the feat Multi-Weapon Fighting, he reduces those penalties. Now he takes a -4 to all four attacks.

If he takes the feat Multi-Weapon Fighting and replaces his weapon proficiency in Dwarven Waraxes with a light-weapon, like a short sword, it reduces the penalty by another -2

So he could wield 4 short swords and make 4 attacks with a -2 penalty to each attack.

This a build called the Kali build, which focuses on getting as many arms as possible and getting as many short swords as possible. It is very fun, but VERY costly as you must get magical weapons for each arm to overcome DR.

I have a friend who has an eidolon like this and she makes 14 attacks in a round!

Other than the skills and the weapon issue, it looks good!

Grand Lodge

Dwarven Longaxes are two handed reach weapons that deal 1d12 damage. They weigh 14 pounds when made out of standard materials, deal slashing damage and crit on a 20 with a x3 modifier.

Elamdri, his player wants to wield Longaxes not Waraxes, he'd need all four arms just to wield two of them.

Silver Crusade

Oh, I see it's an ARG weapon, I don't have that yet. It doesn't terribly change the analysis. He still cannot use both without taking the TWF penalties.


Roberta Yang wrote:

Two mistakes:

Eidolons don't roll for HP from their first hit die, just like PC's don't actually roll for their first hit die. The difference is that PC's automatically roll the maximum value because their hit die comes from a class; since the Eidolon hit die is racial, they automatically roll half max instead.

So the Max HP is 5, got it

You can't have more ranks in a skill than you have hit dice, so no putting two ranks in each skill with only 1 HD. The four ranks need to be in four different skills.

Yep, I mised that, thanks!!

Max attacks applies to natural attacks, not attacks with manufactured weapons. But if he wants to attack with either of those axes, any natural attacks made as part of that full-attack action are secondary (-5 to hit). And if he wants to attack with both of those axes, that's two-weapon fighting, so he'll be taking a -6 to hit with one of them and a -10 to hit with the other. So he won't be outstanding in combat for now (actually, it's kind of weak - the extra pair of arms really doesn't help at all at first level), but later he'll sprout more arms to attack with and be able to attack with all of them for low penalties due to Multiweapon Fighting - it looks like he's going for a Kali build.

Is there somewhere here or the specific book where I could see this build?

Thanks for the help

Tom


Elamdri wrote:
TRDG wrote:

OK, this is what he came up with

BIPED

HP-10 (Igave him 3 dice rolls, I'm to nice, LOL)

True Neutral

BAB 1+

Medium size, speed 30 feet

2+ Natural armour, and another 2+ with the Natural armour revolution.

Fort, good, Ref , bad, will Good.

Attack 2 claws 1D4 damage each

STR-16, DEX-12, CON 13, INT-7, WIS-10, CHA-11

This all looks good.

TRDG wrote:


Skill s- 2 in Bluff and 2 in stealth

He cannot do this. The Eidolon only has one Hit Die and you may only put ranks into a skill up to your hit die. So he may have 4 skills with 1 rank in each, but he cannot have 2 skills with 2 ranks in each because he only has the one Hit Die.

TRDG wrote:


Feats, Exotic weapons, he has the 1+ BAN so he meets the requirement I think?

He qualifies, yes

TRDG wrote:


Evolutin, Limbs (arms), Improved natural armour.

This is also legal.

TRDG wrote:


So he wants a second pair of hands, that do nothing at the moment, as he got Arms and legs for his free evolutions .

Not True. Currently he has 4 arms. What he is trying to do (I suspect) is wield his 2 axes in his arms and put the claws on his feet.

TRDG wrote:


Has 2 Dwarven longaxes equipped, I have no idea what they are, not in any boks I have, even the Ultimate Equipment book I just picked up, just regular Dwarven axe of 1D8 damage???

I think he means Dwarven Waraxe, which is a one-handed weapon that does 1d10 of damage and has a x3 crit. However, these are NOT light weapons and if he is wielding two of them (even if he's using two arms to wield each one) he's still going to take the 2 weapon fighting penalties.

For him, I think that's going to be a -6 on the Main hand and a -10 on the offhand. Very steep

TRDG wrote:


Max atack 3, so he dows get 3 attacks or just the two with said axes that I may or may not allow??
Right now, he is wielding 2 axes and has 2 claws on his feet. He can swing one axe at a -6 penalty and can swing another...

Got it, thanks for the extra help, again!!! :)

Yes a Biped, but if he wants to go for a small human or unhuman "form", would'nt that limit the actual types of weapons it can fight with?

And the form it will take is fairly important as there is more than a fair share in in town action/interaction in Sandpoint through out most of the whole 6 module campaign.

Tom


MassivePauldrons wrote:

Dwarven Longaxes are two handed reach weapons that deal 1d12 damage. They weigh 14 pounds when made out of standard materials, deal slashing damage and crit on a 20 with a x3 modifier.

Elamdri, his player wants to wield Longaxes not Waraxes, he'd need all four arms just to wield two of them.

Where do the Dwarven Long axes come from, what book?

And is it a fairly uncommon item? Seeing that he is at first level I'd want weapons the Summoner could buy at a local shop for his Eidolon, or is that asking to much of the PC, or is he asking me to much....

The Penalties are a lot though, at first anyways.

Thanks you as well for trying to get this figured out.

Tom


I quoted the above posts so I did'nt miss anyone, this player is the only one out of my four PC's that has much RPG experience, the other 3 are pretty new.

I just hope he is'nt trying to pull something as I am new to PF, and had no clue about the Summoner class.

SO its running in the Rise of the Rulelords campaign, a basic fighter, a Cleric and a Ranger/Druid (then looking for the Arcane Archer later on) then the Summoner. I am running a thief and a wizard as PC's and potential red shirts, and to draw out the newer pplayers with their characters.

I'll tell him on what he needs to do for his build, and as always any comments welcome, especially about what weapons would you allow a Summoners 1st level Eidolon in your campaing with the mis of players and Classes I have.

Tom

Grand Lodge

TRDG wrote:
MassivePauldrons wrote:

Dwarven Longaxes are two handed reach weapons that deal 1d12 damage. They weigh 14 pounds when made out of standard materials, deal slashing damage and crit on a 20 with a x3 modifier.

Elamdri, his player wants to wield Longaxes not Waraxes, he'd need all four arms just to wield two of them.

Where do the Dwarven Long axes come from, what book?

And is it a fairly uncommon item? Seeing that he is at first level I'd want weapons the Summoner could buy at a local shop for his Eidolon, or is that asking to much of the PC, or is he asking me to much....

The Penalties are a lot though, at first anyways.

Thanks you as well for trying to get this figured out.

Tom

Dwarven Longaxes are from the Advanced Race Guide as Elamdri said, with 4 arms I think the Eidilon could wield both at -6 -10, or -4 -4 with multi-weapon fighting. Though I don't believe it would get the x1.5 his strength to either of the attacks?


Thanks, that is one of the books (naturally) that I don't have, and I just thumbed through it yesterday at the local hobby store, beleave it or not.

What might be your advise on what you would allow in your campaign, and are those "long axes, fairly rare, how much are they?

Tom

Silver Crusade

TRDG wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:

Two mistakes:

Eidolons don't roll for HP from their first hit die, just like PC's don't actually roll for their first hit die. The difference is that PC's automatically roll the maximum value because their hit die comes from a class; since the Eidolon hit die is racial, they automatically roll half max instead.

So the Max HP is 5, got it

You can't have more ranks in a skill than you have hit dice, so no putting two ranks in each skill with only 1 HD. The four ranks need to be in four different skills.

Yep, I mised that, thanks!!

Max attacks applies to natural attacks, not attacks with manufactured weapons. But if he wants to attack with either of those axes, any natural attacks made as part of that full-attack action are secondary (-5 to hit). And if he wants to attack with both of those axes, that's two-weapon fighting, so he'll be taking a -6 to hit with one of them and a -10 to hit with the other. So he won't be outstanding in combat for now (actually, it's kind of weak - the extra pair of arms really doesn't help at all at first level), but later he'll sprout more arms to attack with and be able to attack with all of them for low penalties due to Multiweapon Fighting - it looks like he's going for a Kali build.

Is there somewhere here or the specific book where I could see this build?

Thanks for the help

Tom

I will post something a bit more comprehensive in a little bit tom. I have to go to go into work at the moment however.

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