MAD - the monk needs more decent attributes than any other class to function. This can often mean that they are very weak in one area, or that they are weaker in an area that really counts. The classic example is that the monk looks as if it needs Dex and Wis, but if you want to be good in combat you always need high strength or else pay a feat tax and suffer from rubbish damage. You have d8 hit dice, but less leeway to bump Con. You could act as a scout, but need to bump Int to do it.
Sensei lets you usae Wisdom to hit at 2nd.
That lowers you to use 12 Str (for damage), okay Dex, High Wis, etc.
It helps Mad a bit.
Nerfs you for FoB, you still suck for first level, and it doesn't fix the core monk. It does, however, demonstrate that the potential fix is not broken, which is positive.
That isn't issue (that was same in 3.5); issue is Designer say it is TWFing.
FoB Mess - the whole full/3/4 BAB mess with flurry of blows is confusing and puts the monk in a bad situation: he's highly mobile, but he has to fight standing still to have a chance of hitting anything. And is it one weapon or two? It has the feel of a bodge compromise that satisfies no-one.
Well they used the TWF mechanics, but I'm not sure that was a good idea. They didn't really fix the monk, they just changed the FoB mechanics and nerfed Improved Natural Attack. The ki mechanic was nice, but the monk's problems from 3.0 onwards were flurry-of-misses, and it really wasn't touched at all.
But you lose Flurry of Blows and fast movement.Sensei lets you usae Wisdom to hit at 2nd.
That lowers you to use 12 Str (for damage), okay Dex, High Wis, etc.
It helps Mad a bit.
Probably for the best to lose Flurry
(not even the designers are sure what to do with it. Is it TWFing? Then why the archetype based on it with archery...Is it not TWFing for feats but in other ways: then they have to explain how it isn't for feats.)
Fast movement can be gained back by buying boosts of speed (haste no stack with Fast movement speed, replaces it) or Springing/Striding.
You don't start with fast movement anyway.
Now the lost of Evasion/Improved is worse, but you can get the ring if you need it badly later.
Too bad Archetypes aren't like 3.5 ACF (alternate class features), you can mix and match those unlike archetypes. So you'd keep Insightful strike, but not take advise at 1st (keeping Flurry).
Personally, I find Monks have become the Dip class that 3.5 Fighters used to be.
Master of Many styles opens up great dips.
1) Cranewing path
2) Kirin Style path for Magus (2xInt mod to damage, and you apply it after you hit not before)
3) Panther for not dropping hit when power attack, etc
4) Snake style for skil based AC.
I dunno, I think the Sensei can be kind of cool if you don't try and think of the Sensei as a combat class.
The Sensei, from level 5ish and particularly after level 11 get's really good as a team player.
Unfortunately Master of Many Styles is too good to ignore for many classes that get an easy 1-or-2 levels dip for some out-of-depth rewards.
Monk uses wisdom for hit and damage.
amulet of unarmed strikes. (same cost progression as a normal weapon)
Old FoB
1 ki point to take a move action and full attack
You're welcome. :)
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Monk uses wisdom for hit and damage.
amulet of unarmed strikes. (same cost progression as a normal weapon)
Old FoB
1 ki point to take a move action and full attackYou're welcome. :)
That would almost take care of many of the problems. Yes.
The Amulet is taking up your neck slots instead of your empty hands though, and so you're missing out on Amulet of Natural Armor and all other Amulets.
Gloves of Unarmed Striking (same cost to advance as a single normal weapon, comes as a pair.)
And it becomes quite a viable class.
This is one of many potential fixes.
But I'm skeptical about the monk getting the much needed overhaul in any official capacity.
I would suggest 1 ki point to get a single additional attack (at your highest attack bonus, while using your flurry BAB) when moving 10' or more, charging, or using the Spring Attack feat . . . not 1 ki point to get a full attack on a move.
But maybe that is just me.
MA
My take:
1. Monk from level 2 onwards can use Wisdom for attacks
2. From level 4 onwards (if he has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool) he may choose to use his Wisdom modifier for damage instead of Strength
3. Whenever the monk spends ki, he may use Wisdom and Strength to determine damage for 1 round
4. Flurry of Blows does not grant additional attacks (taking TWF feats works as normal), instead at level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter the monk gains Weapon Training in all weapons with the monk quality as well as unarmed strikes. Doing a Flurry of Blows still allows the monk to use his monk level instead of his BAB and the monk counts as doing a Flurry of Blows whenever he's attacking with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon
5. The monk can spend 1 ki use a swift action to grant himself an additional attack at his highest BAB. This can be used even when the monk uses a move action or standard action in the same round (so can be combined with Cleave, Spring Attack, Vital Strike, Bullrush, Grapple, Feint, etc)
6. The monk may use his Wisdom score instead of his Intelligence score to meet the prerequisites of any combat feat (such as Combat Expertise)
This is a vanilla build that does not try to do anything fancy; instead it showcases what an average monk could achieve. Item purchases are limited to what affects the DPR.
str 16 = 14 + 2 item
dex 16 = 14 + 2 item
con 14 = 12 + 2 item
int 10
wis 22 = 16 + 2 racial + 2 level + 2 item
cha 8
level 1 - toughness, dodge, mobility
level 2 - improved grapple
level 3 - weapon focus
level 4 -
level 5 - power attack
level 6 - improved disarm
level 7 - spring attack
level 8 -
level 9 - two weapon fighting
level 0 - medusa's wrath
equipment (38000gp spent)
- +1 amulet of mighty fists 5000
- belt of perfection +2 16000
- headband of wisdom +2 4000
- monk robe 13000
attack 18 = 10 monk + 6 wisdom + 1 feat + 2 flurry - 2 TWF + 1 magic
damage 2d6 + 9 = 6 wisdom + 2 flurry + 1 magic
ki use 2d6 + 12 (strength added)
normal attack 18/18/13 2d6+9
DPR 33.6 (2 * 0.75 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 16 * 1.05)
ki attack 18/18/18/13 2d6+12
DPR 54.9 (3 * 0.75 * 19 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 19 * 1.05)
if splashing for duelist gloves (an additional 15000) then the calculations are
normal attack 20/20/15 2d6+11
DPR 43.5 (2 * 0.85 * 18 * 1.05 + 0.6 * 18 * 1.05)
ki attack 20/20/20/15 2d6+14
DPR 69.5 (3 * 0.85 * 21 * 1.05 + 0.6 * 21 * 1.05)
Thing is, Lorekeeper, that the devs have explicitly stated that they do NOT want to up the monk's damage. That's why I've constrained myself to bonuses to hit, and not damage, and other ways of bypassing DR.
Lol, I hope someone else has noticed. I love how deeply it's ingrained in our sub-conscious.
@Dabbler: increasing the to hit also increases damage. The devs are quite aware of this too.
They care about the balance, and the suggestion (along with the sample build) demonstrates that the monk's DPR benefits to the point of being meaningful - but is still significantly behind the DPR potential of a dedicated melee combatant in the form of a fighter/ranger/barbarian/etc. Admittedly there's still much room to push the build, but essentially the version I propose makes the monk similar to a fighter but without the versatility and ability to focus on damage. As such the problem of balancing the monk is resolved, he lags maybe 25% behind a fighter in terms of DPR, but has more defensive capabilities and unique in-combat options that allow him to shine a little when spending his limited ki.
Thing is, Lorekeeper, that the devs have explicitly stated that they do NOT want to up the monk's damage. That's why I've constrained myself to bonuses to hit, and not damage, and other ways of bypassing DR.Fair although they also stated explicitly that they haven't run any damage numbers, which players on the boards actually have done, and as such they aren't really in any place to decide whether or not the monk should be upped in the damage department or not.
Speaking of that, let monks take INA feat.
They claim it makes them too strong a few years ago, but they never showed how. So let monks use it and see if it helps.
I'm out of the loop. What is the FoB clarification, can someone link it?
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Thing is, Lorekeeper, that the devs have explicitly stated that they do NOT want to up the monk's damage. That's why I've constrained myself to bonuses to hit, and not damage, and other ways of bypassing DR.Fair although they also stated explicitly that they haven't run any damage numbers, which players on the boards actually have done, and as such they aren't really in any place to decide whether or not the monk should be upped in the damage department or not.Speaking of that, let monks take INA feat.
They claim it makes them too strong a few years ago, but they never showed how. So let monks use it and see if it helps.
I have to say that is a shame because the monk's damage output sucks. We have a monk in our group right now who almost never manages to break double digits in the damage department at level 7. 7! Granted this is a low treasure game, but even with the AoMF she wouldn't be doing much more.
I'm out of the loop. What is the FoB clarification, can someone link it?
One of the developers said monks couldn't use flurry with a single weapon. They later retracted this statement, pending further review.
I'm out of the loop. What is the FoB clarification, can someone link it?
All of the relevant quotes are on the first page on the thread Flurry of changes to flurry of blows.
If you have an hour or two, it then goes into nearly 1500 responses where all aspects of what we, as gamers, see is wrong with current canon PF monk and how it might possibly be corrected. The developers stop by every now and then and post.
MA
@Dabbler: increasing the to hit also increases damage. The devs are quite aware of this too.
They care about the balance, and the suggestion (along with the sample build) demonstrates that the monk's DPR benefits to the point of being meaningful - but is still significantly behind the DPR potential of a dedicated melee combatant in the form of a fighter/ranger/barbarian/etc. Admittedly there's still much room to push the build, but essentially the version I propose makes the monk similar to a fighter but without the versatility and ability to focus on damage. As such the problem of balancing the monk is resolved, he lags maybe 25% behind a fighter in terms of DPR, but has more defensive capabilities and unique in-combat options that allow him to shine a little when spending his limited ki.
Actually, they are still behind the hitting curve.
MAD accounts for +1-2 of the difference between the monk and a standard combat class. Another +1-2 is accounted between levels 2-17 by the AoMF lagging behind even TWF characters. Hence my suggestion for also granting ki-strike an enhancement bonus to hit (only), either equal to their defence bonus, or +1 and 4th level and a further +1 every three levels after, which roughly matches that which other classes can maintain via weapon enhancement even if using two weapons. This should be applied to unarmed maneuvers as well, so the monk can keep these relevant at higher levels if they wish.
Combined with Wis bonus to hit and maneuvers, this matches the monk to the other classes in terms of their bonus to hit, but damage will still be light. Therefore I suggest a ki-based ability to bypass DR - all of it. Paladin's smite can bypass all DR, granting the same favour to the monk is hardly broken give their much smaller damage output.
Hence hitting is good, damage per hit is low but all those hits can still be made to count even against DR, without treading on the fighter's toes. Because hitting and damaging is possible, the monk's other offensive ability, stunning fist, is suddenly relevant again.
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what we, as gamersTo steal from someone who used that against me today: do you always use the majestic plural when stating your opinions?
Because I am majestic. And also, because I was referring to we as in those of us who posted in that thread offering monk solutions.
MA
I think allowing gauntlets or brass knuckles to do unarmed damage and flurry and making it so they can swap wis for str would solve most of the combat gripes.
Perhaps, if the devs were prepared to allow it.
They have stated before that this is not a real fix, they will not replace the AoMF, and it is, as a solution, OFF the table.
However, looking at deliquescent glove in the UE, one option might be...
Agile Gloves
Cost: 8,000gp
This pair of fine, fingerless gloves have no effect unless the wearer has the Weapon Finesse feat, and is using a light or finesseable weapon (including unarmed strikes). In the event of this, the attack is treated as if having the agile weapon property, adding dexterity bonus to damage in place of strength.
A few items like this would allow the AoMF to be a little more viable by placing the extra properties in the gloves and allowing the AoMF to be used for enhancement bonus.
what we, as gamersTo steal from someone who used that against me today: do you always use the majestic plural when stating your opinions?Because I am majestic. And also, because I was referring to we as in those of us who posted in that thread offering monk solutions.
MA
It doesnt really bother me, so dont take it as a criticism, but I was curious why you added "as gamers". Who else would even care?
Heh. Rhetorical flourish, I reckon.
MA
Ah. I was overthinking it. :)
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Lol, I hope someone else has noticed. I love how deeply it's ingrained in our sub-conscious.
Not sure if anyone else pick it up, but I find it hilarious that a thread complaining about the Monk crowd and how we highjack any thread that remotely touches on the Monk to offer suggestions for fixes... is currently being highjacked by the Monk crowd by discussing possible fixes for the Monk.
Kind of ironic isn't it?
Whoever was holding up the Sensei as an example of a good archetype, compare it to the core Bard or the Evangelist Cleric some time.
Sensei loses all the bonus feats so that advantage is gone. It gets half as many rounds of buffing as those classes. It doesn't get full divine or 6 level arcane spellcasting. It, in short, fails miserably at being competitive with similar classes and archetypes.
If it kept either flurry or the bonus feats it might have some use, but as it stands it's a complete waste unless you plan on adventuring in the mana wastes.
The monk's problem isn't core only.
As far as I can tell the list of functional monk archetypes that are actually better at anything than other PC classes is down to Maneuver Master and Tetori. The Martial Artist is a barely functional poor man's fighter, but at least he can hurt stuff thanks to the accuracy boost and DR penetration of Exploit Weakness, but still lags behind the Unarmed Fighter archetype from the same book in actual capability. Add Sohei and Zen Archer if the Flurry nerf is rolled back. Every other monk archetype fails to fix things.
This was the post in question.
I dunno, I think the Sensei can be kind of cool if you don't try and think of the Sensei as a combat class.
I don't know if you visited the link, but it's a theoretical Monk build that initially looks like a Caster because of what he can do. He's not a true replacement for a Bard, Wizard, or Cleric, but when you initially look at him, he can almost hide as a Bard based off his abilities.
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I would suggest 1 ki point to get a single additional attack (at your highest attack bonus, while using your flurry BAB) when moving 10' or more, charging, or using the Spring Attack feat . . . not 1 ki point to get a full attack on a move.
But maybe that is just me.
MA
Two attacks at full and Max BAB (Like a 2hF gets by 20) has been shown to be almost mathematically equivalent (it's actually a little bit better in all cases except those where you need to crit to hit, or hit on anything but a 1) to A full attack routine at fighter BAB.
Look into Trailblazer by BadAxe Games, and the various threads that led up to it.
Sometimes in order to fix something you need to toss out problem parts and replace them if you refuse to do so you're just tacking on new gadgets onto a broken core system.
But tacking on new gadgets onto a broken core system has been sufficient for them for the past 4 years.
It's been said that they haven't been working on the Monk problem.
Clearly fixing underpowered classes and releasing the fix is not a priority (and for all I know they might be outright against doing so).
People aren't satisfied with the monk. They aren't satisfied with the rogue either. There are TONS of fan fixes for the monk, less for the rogue. There will likely be tons more. I don't think an official fix is a likely thing.
Rogues suck. But you can make a ranger be your new rogue with by taking two archetypes that don't conflict. And you won't suck.
Monks suck. There's less in the way of an easy fix to that one. Hence the fan fixes.
As someone else pointed out, Paizo's business model is more about APs than it is about game design. They have fantastic writers. They have some fantastic game designers as well, but there's less focus on that aspect; and I don't think they will be going back and fixing the various holes in the game that we've all discovered since 3.0 in 2000 that are still around in PF. Not any time soon. Nagging at them to do so seems an exercise in futility. People have been doing so since pathfinder was released. It hasn't happened. They aren't likely to overhaul the system and fix the many things wrong with it. At least not before they decide to release a new edition.
But I am saying those of us trying to figure out this issue are very, very confused.
Is a re-write coming (which I would be opposed to, as I don't think it is needed) or is it just going to be a tweak.
Ok, let us compare a rogue to a monk. Actually, that’s a great comparo. Both are martial classes, but aren’t tanks.
It’s true that a Monk has MAD, but so does that Rogue. Both need that same CON. Both need SkP, so can’t dump INT (rogue needs more SkP but has more per level). Both need STR. Monk needs WIS far more than Ro, but rogue can’t afford to dump Wis, since Perc is critical. Both need Dex, Rogue moreso, true. Finally- rogues often can’t afford to dump CHA, while Monk can dump like crazy there.
So they are equally MAD.
Now starting your breakdown:
1st a Rogue is up by at least +1 (Nope)
2nd a Rogue can afford masterwork, monk has no masterwork option, Rogue is up +2 (Yep, rogue is up +1)
3rd Rogue can afford a magic weapon, monk can't. (Sure he can. A Monk can buy a temple sword or a kama or whatever he wants. Why not? Oh wait, you’re saying in order to Flurry, a Monk needs TWO magic weapons. That’s just plain not true. A Monk can flurry with one, just like a rogue with TWF and one +1 weapon and a MW wpn can. Half of both their attacks are not magic or +1, true. But note that a Monk gets TWF for free, the rogue has to spend a feat on it. This makes up for the rogue being able to get MW weapons. Ok, so now the Monk has just gotten Weapon focus for free to compare to this rogue getting TWF for free, so the Monk is back up. But actually there are lots of better feats, including the very cool Style feats from UC, which the rogue can’t take. Like Crane, which totally rocks)
4th Monk still can't afford a magic weapon. Rogue just bumped Dex. (Wrong, and Monk can bump a stat also. Note that the rogue with his short sword is still doing D6, the monk has d8 with unarmed attacks, which is a +1 dmg enhancement)
5th Monk can spend literally half their WBL to get a +1. A rogue can have two +1 weapons.
6th Rogue can afford a +2 Dex item, so the rogue is now likely at least +2 for attack over the monk. (The Monk can buy one also. Are all your monks on Vop? And since you say a Dex item boosts the rogue attack, that means the rogue has burned yet another feat on WPn finesse)
7th level rogue can probably afford to have a least one weapon +2. Monk...next bump with cost 15k more than the AoMF they have, so no way.
8th. Still more than half the Monk's WBL to bump, Rogue can have two +2 items for 16k . (Note that Monks unarmed attacks now do D10, rogues still are d6, that’s a +2 dmg enhancement).
This whole argument forgets that a monk can use a single magic weapon just fine- but JUST LIKE THE ROGUE with TWF, can’t make all their attacks with just that one weapon. The argument goes on to assume that the Monk is MAD, but so is the Rogue. And the argument gives the rogue two free feats (whereas it’s the MONK who gets free feats, 3 by 6th level) , and then blithely sez that the Rogue can hit harder, forgetting that the monks unarmed attacks do a LOT more damage.
Now sure- the rogue get Sneak Attack, which can be lethal. But the Monk gets Ki, Fast Movement,(and a host of other coolness, but admittedly the rogue gets cool stuff too). and THREE GOOD SAVES Whoops, that’s two more feats the rogue can to burn to keep up with the Monk.
The two classes are just about equal.
Now, sure- no doubt we still have linear fighters and quadratic wizards in PF. So, neither a rogue or a monk (nor a fighter or a Bbn or a …) can keep up with any full spellcasting class at high levels.
I believe that you overstate the degree to which a Rogue is MAD, Dr. Deth. The Rogue can get by (with nearly no problems) with a stat array of Str 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, and Cha 10. That is a 5-point build, leaving everything else for Dex. Yes, he needs Weapon Finesse in order to be effective, but that is typically how Rogues get built (in my experience).
On a 15-point buy, that Rogue will have Str 10, Dex 18 (after stat adjustment if Human, Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Elf, or Halfling), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, and Cha 10.
20-points mean that you bump up Int to 14, or Int and Cha to 12, and either Str or Cha to an 11.
25-point buy and you are in Rogue heaven, with Str 10, Dex 20 (after racial mods), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, and Cha 10.
Now, why can a Rogue get by with a 10 Str (bumping his Dex) and the Monk cannot? The Rogue gets that fireball in a short sword damage enhancer of sneak attack that makes up for the lack of Str bonus. And once the Rogue gets to the point where he can afford a +2 weapon, agile gives him close to the same damage bonus on his weapons as the fighter gets with Strength (just as long as the fighter doesn't two-hand the weapon, that is).
Whereas the Monk still needs that 14 Con. He needs Dex and Wis for AC. He doesn't have a built in damage boost in the class, and therefore needs Strength as well. If he is going to be using maneuvers in combat, he needs at least a 13 in Int. That is 23-points for a build with Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, and Cha 10 (before racial stat modifiers).
How many games allow their monks a 23 or higher point build, while restricting everyone else to a 15- or 20-point buy?
Not many.
MA
You know, it occurs to me, that one of my groups GMs first started playing 3.5 as a Paladin (before he was in a location to play with us again). He mentioned how hard it was to play one because of so many ability score needs. After showing us what he meant, it became a houserule that Paladins got 5 more points than other classes.
At the time, no one really wanted to play a Monk. I did when I joined the group, but, with the exception of a 1 session play where the DM was not in a good mood and made very bad decisions, I only saw a total of some 3 Monks played in 3.5, and only one was any good.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't adopt a similar house rule. If we play 20 point buy, the Monk gets 25. If we play 25, the Monk gets 30, if we play 15, the Monk gets 20, etc. It'd be a very selective rule though. I'd talk with the player first and see where it is he wants to go with the Monk. If he's planning 1-20 of Monk, sure, 5 points more, but if he's just starting off Monk as a dip, then he gets the same as everyone else. I'm thinking at least a 50/50 or 60/40 split with Monk being the higher class for a player to get the increased point buy.
Take one level of monk, put points in scores you'll be using in your other class, multiclass out, never to return :D
(might be a good idea, but you can achieve the same thing just by giving the monk a bit more armor items easily, so he doesn't need to use so much Dex. Remember, 4 attributes is pretty close to the norm.)
You know, it occurs to me, that one of my groups GMs first started playing 3.5 as a Paladin (before he was in a location to play with us again). He mentioned how hard it was to play one because of so many ability score needs. After showing us what he meant, it became a houserule that Paladins got 5 more points than other classes.
At the time, no one really wanted to play a Monk. I did when I joined the group, but, with the exception of a 1 session play where the DM was not in a good mood and made very bad decisions, I only saw a total of some 3 Monks played in 3.5, and only one was any good.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't adopt a similar house rule. If we play 20 point buy, the Monk gets 25. If we play 25, the Monk gets 30, if we play 15, the Monk gets 20, etc. It'd be a very selective rule though. I'd talk with the player first and see where it is he wants to go with the Monk. If he's planning 1-20 of Monk, sure, 5 points more, but if he's just starting off Monk as a dip, then he gets the same as everyone else. I'm thinking at least a 50/50 or 60/40 split with Monk being the higher class for a player to get the increased point buy.
You could give the monk an extra point buy point (that can be saved to be spent any time you level) at each of the first 5 levels, fluff this as their ongoing dedication to intensive training/meditation. If they have more levels in a class other than monk they start to lose the extra points at a rate of one per level representing a lack of dedication to ongoing training.
Director of Games
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Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
The monk's problem isn't core only.
Agreed. Some archetypes like the zen archer and the sohei and the quingong monk are pretty good, playable even. However, some, like the monk of the healing hand, manage to be even more dire than the core monk.
Ok, let us compare a rogue to a monk. Actually, that’s a great comparo. Both are martial classes, but aren’t tanks.
Actually the rogue is considered by many to NOT be a martial class. The rogue has a hell of a lot of non-combat skills and abilities, including his primary role as trap-springer.
The monk has no such. Calling the rogue a martial class is really stretching things.
It’s true that a Monk has MAD, but so does that Rogue. Both need that same CON. Both need SkP, so can’t dump INT (rogue needs more SkP but has more per level). Both need STR. Monk needs WIS far more than Ro, but rogue can’t afford to dump Wis, since Perc is critical. Both need Dex, Rogue moreso, true. Finally- rogues often can’t afford to dump CHA, while Monk can dump like crazy there.
So they are equally MAD.
No...sorry, just no. The rogues is NOT expected to mix it in combat save at opportune moments when he can stick the knife in somebody's back.
Strength - rogue has sneak attack, he doesn't need strength, monk has...OK, monk needs strength to do damage. Monk 1 rogue 0
Dexterity - both need dexterity, the rogue more so than the monk. Monk 2 rogue 1
Constitution - everyone needs con, the monk probably more so than the rogue because he is expected to mix it up in a fight more; he's more of a combat class than the rogue. Monk 3 rogue 2
Intelligence - neither can afford to dump it, but it is not essential for either.
Wisdom - monk needs it, rogue cannot dump it. Monk 4 rogue 2
Charisma - neither need it.
So in fact the monk is twice as MAD as the rogue.
Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
Thanks Jason, it's reassuring to know you are looking at it. You don't mind if we bounce around ideas, do you? Most of us are cool with you using any we come up with that you like, and it may save you some time when it comes to brainstorming fixes if we've already crunched numbers and assembled mechanics.
We totally get that whatever fixes you use will have to be minor and will have to be tacked on as one-lines here and there to the core monk - that this will not be a complete rewrite. We also accept the limitation that the AoMF is here to stay, and that there will be no replacement items.
Within that context, we have already got a long list of proposals for fixes that would enable the monk to punch at it's weight while not usurping the full BAB classes' place as damage dealers...
One proposal, by Epic Meepo, that I saw in the Prerelease discussion was that whenever the monk did a combat maneuver, they dealt damage as if they made an unarmed attack. Obviously might not work well with the maneuver master archetype, but it's a cool idea.
One proposal, by Epic Meepo, that I saw in the Prerelease discussion was that whenever the monk did a combat maneuver, they dealt damage as if they made an unarmed attack. Obviously might not work well with the maneuver master archetype, but it's a cool idea.
It's a shiny, but not a fix. A nice shiny, though. It would make a nice feat.
The monk's problem isn't core only.Agreed. Some archetypes like the zen archer and the sohei and the quingong monk are pretty good, playable even. However, some, like the monk of the healing hand, manage to be even more dire than the core monk.
Ok, let us compare a rogue to a monk. Actually, that’s a great comparo. Both are martial classes, but aren’t tanks.Actually the rogue is considered by many to NOT be a martial class. The rogue has a hell of a lot of non-combat skills and abilities, including his primary role as trap-springer.
The monk has no such. Calling the rogue a martial class is really stretching things.
It’s true that a Monk has MAD, but so does that Rogue. Both need that same CON. Both need SkP, so can’t dump INT (rogue needs more SkP but has more per level). Both need STR. Monk needs WIS far more than Ro, but rogue can’t afford to dump Wis, since Perc is critical. Both need Dex, Rogue moreso, true. Finally- rogues often can’t afford to dump CHA, while Monk can dump like crazy there.
So they are equally MAD.
No...sorry, just no. The rogues is NOT expected to mix it in combat save at opportune moments when he can stick the knife in somebody's back.
Strength - rogue has sneak attack, he doesn't need strength, monk has...OK, monk needs strength to do damage. Monk 1 rogue 0
Dexterity - both need dexterity, the rogue more so than the monk. Monk 2 rogue 1
Constitution - everyone needs con, the monk probably more so than the rogue because he is expected to mix it up in a fight more; he's more of a combat class than the rogue. Monk 3 rogue 2
Intelligence - neither can afford to dump it, but it is not essential for either.
Wisdom - monk needs it, rogue cannot dump it. Monk 4 rogue 2
Charisma - neither need it.So in fact the monk is twice as MAD as the rogue.
...Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon.
now lets look at saves---at level 6 the rogue is 2,5,2 the monk is 5,5,5 so the rogue has to put how many extra points into con and wis just to stay even? say the monk had 16 wis to start--the roque would need a 22 wis. Don't forget the monk advantage in saves and ac the rogue has to make up. or maybe the monk would be 3, 3, 3 saves at level 6?
You can see Epic Meepo's suggestion here.
I laughed at this comment by Mark Moreland (pre-working at Paizo). Even back then people were making a million monk "fixes".
One thing I always see and worry about is one class looks at a different class and sees something they would like to have and be better at, without realizing that they in return have benefits that that other class does not have. If they got to do as well as that other class in area a--while still holding a significant advantage in area b over that other class, then it isn't fair.
take the rogue and monk discussion. monks do better tripping and throwing, have better ac and better saves. Now if they want to do the damage of a sneak attacking rogue--where does that leave rogues(when everyone is basically able to do the trap job--read the thread where people say you dont need rogues)
if both are doing equal damage--but the monk has better saves, ac and CMB advantage---the rogue is what?
I can see why monks are feeling disappointed--you feel you dont have any speciality. But dont be surprised if that specialty may not come at the cost of some abilities you do have. IE you get brass knuckles as unarmed usable and flurry usable--but you drop to rogue saves and ac. or rogue saves and lose some CMB.
now lets look at saves---at level 6 the rogue is 2,5,2 the monk is 5,5,5 so the rogue has to put how many extra points into con and wis just to stay even? say the monk had 16 wis to start--the roque would need a 22 wis. Don't forget the monk advantage in saves and ac the rogue has to make up. or maybe the monk would be 3, 3, 3 saves at level 6?
Certainly, if you accept that the monk therefore requires an intelligence 8 points in advance of the rogue's in order to match the rogue's skill ranks.
The whole point of a comparison is just that, you compare two classes, or similar features of two classes. You don't try and turn one class into another because if it were even vaguely possible, they wouldn't be separate classes in the first place.
Compare the features that are similar, match those that grant other advantages and disadvantages separately.
Monks have good saves, it's part of being a monk.
Rogues have good skills, it's part of being a rogue.
ok so monks have half the skills of a rogue
fighters have half the skills of a monk
fighters have worse saves than a monk
fighters and monks get close to same ac
so if you want the same bab as a fighter?
your own arguement for tradeoff works against you.
your saves and skills are offset by the fighters BAB and dpr
so if they give you the BAB or up your dpr by using the light weapons as flurryable and enchantable wit unarmed---what does the fighter get? Your saves and skills?
you can't always forget your strengths versus their weakness when comparing your weakness to anothers strength
fighter saves at 6th are 5, 2, 2. much easier to dominate and turn him against his own party
people will spend a LOT of money to get their saves up. Every class but basically one has at least one weak save for two good ones. Many classes have two weak for one good one.
Hakken, they have 5 months of constant experience for debating that point and their conclusion has been already drawn (just as most others' has been, I'd wager) :)
So...godspeed.
aye, I agree Cheapy. Nothing you or I, or really anyone else says on here will really matter. I am just pointing out to people that when a balance comes there may be some take with the give. So don't be surprised.
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take the rogue and monk discussion. monks have better ac
Untrue.
Chain shirt is 4 Base AC boost, Monk need 18 Wis to meet that.By time they get upgrades, Rogue has +1 Chain shirt (AC 5 boost).
if both are doing equal damage--but the monk has better saves, ac and CMB advantage---the rogue is what?
People want to up hit, not damage.