Time Stop and Mage's Disjunction

[pad300]

Can you use a Mage's Disjunction inside a time stop?
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Time Stop:

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
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Mage's Disjunction:

School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area all magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst, or one magic item (see text)
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance no

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are unraveled and destroyed completely (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item for the duration of this spell. An item in a creature's possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor's Will save bonus, whichever is higher. If an item's saving throw results in a natural 1 on the die, the item is destroyed instead of being suppressed.

You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

You can also use this spell to target a single item. The item gets a Will save at a -5 penalty to avoid being permanently destroyed. Even artifacts are subject to mage's disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. If successful, the artifact's power unravels, and it is destroyed (with no save). If an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish. Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.
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The RAW says yes. It affects an area and has a duration longer than the time stop. The implications are ugly. You can, for example, Time Stop, Disjunction someone to get rid of all protections, and then surround them with summoned monsters who will act on your turn (you summoned them) at the end of the Time Stop... Opinions and balance suggestions welcome.

[wraithstrike]

edit:I misunderstood the question.

Yes, that seems to be legal.

[Odraude]

Well, I know what my level 20 BBEG is doing to my players! :)

[AvalonXQ]

pad300 wrote:

You can, for example, Time Stop, Disjunction someone to get rid of all protections, and then surround them with summoned monsters who will act on your turn (you summoned them) at the end of the Time Stop.

I think that maybe summoned monsters won't get to attack until the following turn.

[pad300]

AvalonXQ wrote:

pad300 wrote:

You can, for example, Time Stop, Disjunction someone to get rid of all protections, and then surround them with summoned monsters who will act on your turn (you summoned them) at the end of the Time Stop.

I think that maybe summoned monsters won't get to attack until the following turn.

Maybe as a balance suggestion, but the normally summoned monsters get to attack on they round they appear - which is the round after you start the spellcasting, "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn"... The problem is, that Time Stop gives you at least 2 full rounds, 1 to disjunction, and 1 to cast. So the monsters will appear before the time stop ends... and it's lunch time.

[Malikor]

One thing though, the summoned moneters would be disjoined, unless you happen to be holding hands with them. Additionaly, I think the Time Stop would be disjoined as well ((maybe) the whole wording "are you carrying or touching the spell?)

[wraithstrike]

What do you mean they would be disjoined?

[Malikor]

As the spell describes "All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.T hat is, spells and spell-like effects are unraveled and destroyed completely (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item for the duration of this spell."

[Are]

He means that once you cast the mage's disjunction, both time stop and the summon spells will immediately end.

So the combo isn't awesome.

[wraithstrike]

OK, good point, but you could drop disjunction 1st, and then bring in the summons in the following rounds. As for the time stop, just don't have yourself in the area of affect. Actually you could have all your summons on one side of the target, and place disjunction so that it never touches your summons.

[pad300]

Disjunction definetly won't affect the Time Stop "All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch". Time Stop has range personal, so it's carried by you. The caster should be able to place his summoned monsters outside the burst of the Disjunction, and have them charge (and pounce! Dire Tigers are sweet) after the Time Stop ends.

[Are]

An effect isn't carried or touched by anyone. That exception is for magic items.

But as wraithstrike says, this works fine if you place disjunction's origin too far away to include yourself.

[Malikor]

I think Are is right, a spell isnt carried or touched by you, so the spell would be disjoined if you cast it with yourself in the area.

[Diego Rossi]

wraithstrike wrote:

OK, good point, but you could drop disjunction 1st, and then bring in the summons in the following rounds. As for the time stop, just don't have yourself in the area of affect. Actually you could have all your summons on one side of the target, and place disjunction so that it never touches your summons.

Disjunction has a duration so it will continue di disjoint spells in its area of effect for the whole duration of the spell apparently.

The wording isn't so clear as Paizo has changed the spell from the d20 version, giving it a duration and greatly reducing the chance of permanently de-magicing a magic item but they haven't made it crystal clear if the disjointing part is instantaneous and then the duration refer only to the length of time that the magic items will stay powerless or if the whole effect last for the duration of the spell.

If the disjointing effect last the whole duration of the spell we have several strange effects:

1) the magic items in the area of effect will have to make a save every round (there is no line in the spell saying that if you have saved once you are immune to that casting of the spell);

2) creatures in the AoO of the spell will be protected by all spell and spell like abilities (they are unraveled as soon as they enter the Mage's Disjunction AoO (so your summoned monsters will have little effect unless they have mundane or supernatural ranged attacks);

3) it will block line of effect for spells and spell like abilities as they are unraveled as soon as they pass the AoO.

Quite different from the 3.X version.

All the above can be avoided if the intended effect is to have a instantaneous disjointing and the duration is only meant to specify for how long the affected magic items will lose their powers. But if we use that interpretation then Mage's Disjunction will not work with time stop.
Probably that is the RAI of the spell but decidedly not the RAW.

About the question if the spells on the casting spellcasters are unraveled, my interpretation is that they aren't. But again we are speaking RAI, not RAW.

Good candidate for a FAQ.