Tangle bolt - Crossbow - 226 gold - /threadLook up the "entangled" condition and get back to us with that.
Check out tangle bolt and get back to me. Reflex or fall for flying creatures. At least check the gear before you have a go. And maybe get a salt lick for that high horse...
@Sangalor
I applaud your approach but you clearly don't understand.
See...Fighters...can't fly.
But casters...they can fly.This will not be resolved by appealing to sensibility.
Hehe :-)
Well, not correct: by using their class feature "feats" (standard feats for that, bonus feats for combat) fighters can get flight with the eldritch heritage feat tree ;-)
For those who just cannot pick a bow, accept help or down a potion...
Daily reminder that fighters do have tons of feats, and proficiency with bow. Sure, it is a secondary option, but the gripe of not being able to attack with his primary damage option is akin to having a elemental bloodline sorcerer and whine when you fight things with resistances and immunities to your primary element, and you have to resort to something OTHER than your primary damage spells.
This complaint is essentially baseless unless your GM is a douche that have every encounter be a flying monster with infinite overhead space. Kinda like if someone rolled a fire-sorc and had every encounter be resistant to fire. Or a rogue and all you encounter is barbarians and elementals.
I could easily make a CR=<APL-2 that would TPK the group that I currently GM, by abusing all their weaknesses and handcrafting encounters. But instead, I make encounters that foster teamwork and make the players feel good about beating them.
But then again I play with adults that work as a group, and cover each other to ensure efficiency and survival, and not a bunch of kids who want to one-up each other by doing more damage than the next.
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But a class should be able to do what their very NAME suggests they do without depending on others and wasting the other party member's actions. Especially when multiple other classes can do it on their own without wasting someone's actions and throwing away money (Barbarian has dragon totem, Synthesist has overland flight or flight evolution, Magus has Force Hook Charge/Dimension Door+Spell Combat with Feather Fall prepared).
You do realize that Pathfinder is a team oriented game.
What this means is everyone works together to cover the weaknesses of others. Not every class is meant to do everything.
Then stop playing fighters if you don't like what they are. Why is it such an incredible problem to have one non-supernatural class for those who want to play one?
Nice. I must inform that you logically imply that fighters are useless after a certain level; where everyone starts doing the supernatural, the naturals fall by the wayside. That was the point.
And for the record, I don't want to play classes when they are irrelevant.
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Why do fighter's need to be supernatural?
They are able to do things that go way beyond the norm of physics and other things considered normal.
If I'm able to put a hurt'in on a demon, for example, with just my "normal" ability while someone else needs a spell then I would give that person using their "normal" ability more respect.
You cannot hurt a demon beyond a certain level. They'll just teleport away and leave you irrelevant. Supernatural powers trump natural ones.
Then stop playing fighters if you don't like what they are. Why is it such an incredible problem to have one non-supernatural class for those who want to play one?Nice. I must inform that you logically imply that fighters are useless after a certain level; where everyone starts doing the supernatural, the naturals fall by the wayside. That was the point.
And for the record, I don't want to play classes when they are irrelevant.
Note that batman aren't useless besides superman and green lantern, and iron man isn't useless besides spider man and wolverine.
And fighters can do supernatural things. Like regularly drop from orbit and survive. Or punch through a stone wall like normal people punch plywood. They just can't do "flashy" things without using gear.
So nowhere is it logically implied that fighters are useless, unless you say that someone who does not have flashy supernatural powers are always useless compared to someone with flashy supernatural powers - in which case I must point to innumerable fantasy tropes where a "regular guy" has won against supernatural odds.
You cannot hurt a demon beyond a certain level. They'll just teleport away and leave you irrelevant. Supernatural powers trump natural ones.
Forcing the demon to flee can be very relevant. And it still assumes the demon has the initiative. Also, *item* of dimensional anchor. Or a wizard friend who might have it's ass handed if alone against the demon.
You cannot hurt a demon beyond a certain level. They'll just teleport away and leave you irrelevant. Supernatural powers trump natural ones.So, fighters now have to be able to teleport as well as fly?
You know, everyone who can't cast dimensional anchor as an immediate action (because teleporting after someone isn't really easy) is irrelevant.
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The problem I see with arguments like these is the fact that the examples are always those purposeful corner where the fighter is always setup to fail as much as possible.
That would be like me throwing all monsters at a Wizard who have Spell Resistance, Immunities, the Wizard's spellbook was stole,, he only has two spells left, 2 hit points, poisoned, level drained, and blind. Then I discuss how I think he sucks at this point.
Again, a fighter has feats. I present you the anti-teleport flying dutchman, eh, fighter:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
-> put in racials where necessary, just not penalties in Cha for this build...
Levels & Feats:
1 Combat reflexes
1 Skill focus: Heal
2 power attack
3 eldritch heritage: celestial; heavenly fire
4 deadly aim; STR (or something else) +1
5 weapon focus: scimitar
6 Disruptive
7 dazzling display: scimitar
8 weapon specialization: scimitar; CHA+1
9 lunge
10 Spellbreaker
11 improved eldritch heritage: wings of heaven
12 Teleport tactician; STR (or something else) +1
This is not even an optimized build, nor it the only possible one.
It can however fly on its own and combat teleporting opponents effectively. You could easily implement the greater weapon spec tree, shield bashing or the like, maneuvers and so on.
I think feats are generally underestimated :-)
The best you can come up with is feats and 'get a bow' even though a bow doesn't work for a melee fighter (to hit is too low)?
Comparing a shock lizard to a wizard or a SLA demon?
I'm impressed. I change my point of view!
The best you can come up with is feats and 'get a bow' even though a bow doesn't work for a melee fighter (to hit is too low)?
Comparing a shock lizard to a wizard or a SLA demon?
I'm impressed. I change my point of view!
Uhm, you did see that I showed how to use the class feature "feats" of a fighter to achieve the things the op wanted? Even the teleporting thing that was brought up?
And to hit = too low is not true IMO. There's weapon training, enhancement bonuses etc.
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The best you can come up with is feats and 'get a bow' even though a bow doesn't work for a melee fighter (to hit is too low)?
Comparing a shock lizard to a wizard or a SLA demon?
I'm impressed. I change my point of view!
Where in the hell do you come up a bow doesn't work for a melee fighter?
Even without feats and Weapon Training, a fighter can still use a bow with no problem.
Once again, this is like looking at the abilities of a PC then intentionally creating a scenario where they will most likely fail.
If I look over your Wizard's spell-list and I notice he takes all fire spells and I create an encounter where everyone is immune to fire how would you feel then when I told you your PC sucked?
Now if I did the same as above but not intentionally then that is a different story.
Stop moving those goalposts please.
You can still be a pretty g$~~#&n competent archer even if the bow is your secondary weapon.
In fact, I'd say the only smart way to build a fighter is to devote a few feats here and there to your secondary weapon. Which should be ramged if your primary is melee, and vice-versa.
Absolutely :-)
Please note that the sample build I showed above even allows you to *fly* to melee and gives you attacks of opportunities for teleporting opponents.
One could in theory even retrain the deadly aim I put in there if taken as fighter feat...
Anyway it has been shown by that the fighter can fly on his own without gear and deal with teleporting opponents while remaining melee.
So what will be the next thing he is supposed to do I wonder? :-)
To be honest, an archer build is probably preferable to a melee build...assuming the campaign is mostly set in outdoors / above ground environments. The archer does suffer if he ventures into dungeons that twist and wind.
Hm, not sure about that. Melee can do other things with less investment of feats. Also arrows are more easily countered: deflect arrows, missile shield, protection from arrows, wind wall, lying on the ground for extra AC etc.
Actually, I think it would be good to have rules or at least guidelines for how stuff like jumping on the back of a monster or such works. Even if it's possible as is, it requires extra work and the game doesn't really encourage you to do extra work to do something that is most often suboptimal.
I do think that combat maneuvers should get a boost so that even one not focused in them finds them useful once in a while. It's very hard to do that though, without making them spammable or overpowered. Crit feats are one way, but I don't really like that either for various reasons.
Even as someone that sees no problem with fighters at higher levels, I wouldn't mind some insight into how to run encounters where the PC's can swarm up a foe.
Similar to 'Shadow of the Colossus' really, but where the foe is more active in perhaps trying to brush you off.
I'm not even asking for new rules, just some insight into possible ways to run such an encounter (I have, having more input is always good)
Even as someone that sees no problem with fighters at higher levels, I wouldn't mind some insight into how to run encounters where the PC's can swarm up a foe.
Similar to 'Shadow of the Colossus' really, but where the foe is more active in perhaps trying to brush you off.
I'm not even asking for new rules, just some insight into possible ways to run such an encounter (I have, having more input is always good)
I don't know that "Shadow of the Colossus" you are talking about, but generally speaking I would say:
PC side:- If they have the gang-up feat and some reach weapons, it will quickly become a field day for rogues
- Aiding another is really great
- Teamwork feats such as escape route (again with reach weapons, improved unarmed strikes in addition are a plus) will annoy the heck out of a big opponent since his reach will almost be irrelevant
- ever considered enlarging someone with reach weapon, improved unarmed strike (or some other means for close battle), combat reflexes and maneuvers
Foe side:
- Whirlwind attacks
- grapple and other maneuvers, maybe sundering their weapons
- keep moving to avoid full attacks
- vital strike for those big massive weapons
- maybe some style feats that make PCs think twice about attacking and moving about
Does this go into the right direction?
Actually, I think it would be good to have rules or at least guidelines for how stuff like jumping on the back of a monster or such works. Even if it's possible as is, it requires extra work and the game doesn't really encourage you to do extra work to do something that is most often suboptimal.
I do think that combat maneuvers should get a boost so that even one not focused in them finds them useful once in a while. It's very hard to do that though, without making them spammable or overpowered. Crit feats are one way, but I don't really like that either for various reasons.
There are some really good ones in the homebrew forum.
Here's the thread and my own contribution. There are a bunch of different formulations by different folks, so you can choose one to your taste.
Sort of, yes.
I guess I'm really asking for rules on handling 'Godzilla' combat where the PC's are just normal sized.
Shadow of the Colossus is a game where you, the hero, run around and defeat monsters of reality defying size by scrambling up their bodies and solving 'puzzles' essentially.
I like your suggestions, but I wonder how applicable they are to a foe the size of a large city block =D
This is entirely off topic of course, but its fun.
Sidenote:
Do you still flank just by being on opposite sides of something, no matter its size?
Edit:
Thanks Evil Lincoln! Exactly what I was after =D
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Actually, I think it would be good to have rules or at least guidelines for how stuff like jumping on the back of a monster or such works. Even if it's possible as is, it requires extra work and the game doesn't really encourage you to do extra work to do something that is most often suboptimal.
I do think that combat maneuvers should get a boost so that even one not focused in them finds them useful once in a while. It's very hard to do that though, without making them spammable or overpowered. Crit feats are one way, but I don't really like that either for various reasons.
There are some really good ones in the homebrew forum.
Here's the thread and my own contribution. There are a bunch of different formulations by different folks, so you can choose one to your taste.
I know there are some good ones, we use an altered version of your Brutal Maneuvers actually, to great effect (we've limited it a bit though, and altered the "you can trip with any weapon" rule, so unless you've got special feats you usually do your unarmed damage on most combat maneuvers).
But having such rules core would be an improvement, I think.
In particular, I'd love a maneuver system that somehow helped show temporary weak points in characters - for example, critical misses that cause you to loose your footing, causing a +4 bonus to any trip/bull rush attempt (and your opponents know this). That kind of rules that rewards taking opportunities rather than making trip-spammers.
Cool! Can you bump that thread maybe and tell me how it's been going?
I don't even use it myself, although I still like it. I have a different formulation I'll post in that thread.
The best you can come up with is feats
Oh, now we're pretending "has lots of feats" isn't a class feature of fighters? So I suppose the new goalpost position is "Show how a fighter can single-handedly kill a teleporting flying demon using nothing but Armor Training, otherwise the game is broken"?
Just played a half-orc rng5/bbn5 with NO special build for flight or anything, and what happened? the BBEG was a winged demon, and there was a bridge, a big chasm and a high ceiling. So, what did I do? Round 1: drink potion of invisibility and drop down to edge of bridge. Round 2: draw and drink potion of fly. Round 3: fly up, hide under bridge. Round 4: wait patiently as rest of party confronts demon, move up behind. Round 5: RAGE, 5' step, full attack with my big ass titan-mauler weapons! Round 6: chase fleeing demon, kill with critical hit.
DEMON treasure for the expenditure of 2 potions. That, and a half-orc barbarian slaughtered a badass demon. Yup. And a fighter can have those exact same 2 potions. No, not a class ability, an "any 10th level can purchase" item.
that is still a 20% chance that said wizard will lose a slot.Wait, assuming I can get my DM to allow this "optional" extra mechanic, I can give up my turn in order to have a (chance of hitting) x (0.2) chance of making him lose his turn? That doesn't seem like a very good deal to me.
even without the "Called Shot." you can ready an action to interrupt the wizard's spell with an arrow.
or you can turn him into a pincushion before his next spell. a 10th level archer gets like 4 attacks before haste.
with weapon specialization, weapon training +2, deadly aim, a 16 STR and 20 Dex with a +3 bow. you have a to hit bonus of (with rapid/manyshot) at 10th level
+14/14/9 and the first arrow deals double damage.this also factors deadly aim.
damage is 1d8+16 or 2d8+32 on the first arrow. i doubt the wizard is really able to survive the damage without the assistance of his spells. it's not hitting the AC that is the problem, it's getting past his miss chances and other defenses, which each require a standard action because both the quicken spell feat and rods of quicken spell aren't really in his budget. at least not without some major sacrifice.
wizards are laughably hittable, unless they waste standard actions and spell slots to augment their defenses.
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Just played a half-orc rng5/bbn5 with NO special build for flight or anything, and what happened? the BBEG was a winged demon, and there was a bridge, a big chasm and a high ceiling. So, what did I do? Round 1: drink potion of invisibility and drop down to edge of bridge. Round 2: draw and drink potion of fly. Round 3: fly up, hide under bridge. Round 4: wait patiently as rest of party confronts demon, move up behind. Round 5: RAGE, 5' step, full attack with my big ass titan-mauler weapons! Round 6: chase fleeing demon, kill with critical hit.
DEMON treasure for the expenditure of 2 potions. That, and a half-orc barbarian slaughtered a badass demon. Yup. And a fighter can have those exact same 2 potions. No, not a class ability, an "any 10th level can purchase" item.
You missed the central part of this thread: Drinking a potion, accepting a spell from a party member or using a bow is considered to be unfair to the fighter, especially since he cannot be effective with a bow as a secondary weapon when he is a "melee fighter" (a definition and build I still wait to see), he has to be a dedicated archer or otherwise he won't hit. A fighter should be able to do all of that by himself, it shouldn't eat into his WBL.
-> That's the reasoning trying to be made by the OP and some others here.Your suggestions are good IMO but considered invalid by those :-P
Edit: Oh, and btw. you missed the point also because you are not using the fighter class which is being heavily criticized here. Barbarians and rangers and such are apparently considered to be fine :-)
And don't forget race abilities are out too.
I think i burnt my popcorn. Man i love this argument. Um sorry debate?
Does it account for the fact that backs vary widely by shape? size? and angle? Or where the heck you're trying to scale something's back from?
Using existing rules that can work has a major advantage, you don't need to memorise a new set of rules for every corner case.
Actually, yes, my version of the Cling maneuver does not assume a humanoid target, and it draws on the grapple rules, the "hidden" state from the stealth redux blog and aspects of the Snatch monster feat.
It also includes a crazy-hero bonus for landing on things from above.
For all of those reasons, I am quite happy with my version. I think it is simpler than the OP's version in that thread, but being a fan of Shadow of Colossus I know exactly what he was going for.