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The Quickrunner's Shirt set a precedent that I'd like to see followed.
The Quickrunners Shirt got the axe because it was an admitted 'must have' for everyone. The Sipping Jacket is the same deal. It breaks the action economy by allowing character to 'drink' a potion loaded into it as a swift action 1/day. It costs 5k + potions to keep it running.
Do we want this level of power increase in PFS? Granted it's a bit more limited in scope, this arguably gives a free move action and a free standard action, a noticeably bigger power jump than the Quickrunner's Shirt.
Thoughts?
Edit: Corrected the thread title.
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I think a conservative approach towards what to allow will do PFS a great service.
Honestly I don't see this as anything close to as bad as the quickrunners shirt.
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Agreed. I think the PFS 'release' date for the book needs to be pushed back a couple weeks so the campaign staff can have some more time to look things over.
I'd like to see Mike/Mark employ their more regular players to proof this stuff. I know the first instinct would be to have the Venture Captains handle this sort of thing but Venture Captains aren't recruited for their game knowledge or handle on system mastery. VCs are organizers first and not necessarily equipped for this sort of responsibility.
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Agreed. I think the PFS 'release' date for the book needs to be pushed back a couple weeks so the campaign staff can have some more time to look things over.
I'd like to see Mike/Mark employ their more regular players to proof this stuff. I know the first instinct would be to have the Venture Captains handle this sort of thing but Venture Captains aren't recruited for their game knowledge or handle on system mastery. VCs are organizers first and not necessarily equipped for this sort of responsibility.
This has been in the hands of VCs for a while now. They were told to look through it and express concerns they may have.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Do you mean the Sipping Jacket (Ultimate Equipment pg 222)?
IF so, I think it's fine.
1) Only one potion at a time.
2) Effects last only 24 hours. So you won't be able to carry potions from scenario to scenario. (Unlike the quickrunner shirt, which 'self recharges')
3) Cost is much greater. (5K+potions vs 1K*)
4) Various tricks, (accelerated drinker + tiefling tail) already dispense with the standard action.
5) If someone wants to spend 5K to have their spread their 750 haste potion split over 5 rounds rather than all at once, I don't see it that bad.
*
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This has been in the hands of VCs for a while now. They were told to look through it and express concerns they may have.
I know the first instinct would be to have the Venture Captains handle this sort of thing but Venture Captains aren't recruited for their game knowledge or handle on system mastery. VCs are organizers first and not necessarily equipped for this sort of responsibility.
I know VCs that still insist that Vital Strike is usable on a charge...
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Though this item is not as clearly-crazy as the quickrunner's shirt, it still messes with the action economy when used, providing a large effect (a move/standard pair) activated as a swift action.
Fortunately, it does not work with potions of enlarge person, because it only works with effects whose durations are instantaneous or rounds/lvl.
Either way, messing with the action economy is always a Pandora's Box, and I can see this item leading to some really egregious effects (swift-action displacement, off the top of my head.)
-Matt
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This has been in the hands of VCs for a while now. They were told to look through it and express concerns they may have.I know the first instinct would be to have the Venture Captains handle this sort of thing but Venture Captains aren't recruited for their game knowledge or handle on system mastery. VCs are organizers first and not necessarily equipped for this sort of responsibility.I know VCs that still insist that Vital Strike is usable on a charge...
What's your point? One VC you know doesn't know a rule therefor... ?
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I have countless other examples but that's not the point.
My point was that citing the VCs as a team to look over material that may be problematic for PFS is not a good system. Some of them may be, but they're not 'rules guys'. They're leaders and organizers, not technicians.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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<sarc>Maybe we should see Quicken Spell banned since it messes with the 'action economy'. </sarc>
More seriously, a potion put into the shirt is 'used' once it's started. You have to declare when you're putting it in. Several scenarios take place over multiple days. If you start day 1 and put your potion of enlarge person in the shirt, it's going to suck when the scenario says "The first 3 days pass uneventfully."
In fact, with these kind of time frames, the shirt is more trouble than it's worth.
Day 1 "I put my potion in my shirt." "The day passes uneventfully."
Day 2 "I put my potion in my shirt." "The day passes uneventfully."
Day 3 "I put my potion in my shirt." "They day passes uneventfully."
Day 4 "I put my potion in my, nah forget it, I've already burned three potions." "You get attacked by bugbears, roll for initiative."
<sarc>Maybe we should see Quicken Spell banned since it messes with the 'action economy'. </sarc>
More seriously, a potion put into the shirt is 'used' once it's started. You have to declare when you're putting it in. Several scenarios take place over multiple days. If you start day 1 and put your potion of enlarge person in the shirt, it's going to suck when the scenario says "The first 3 days pass uneventfully."
In fact, with these kind of time frames, the shirt is more trouble than it's worth.
Day 1 "I put my potion in my shirt." "The day passes uneventfully."
Day 2 "I put my potion in my shirt." "The day passes uneventfully."
Day 3 "I put my potion in my shirt." "They day passes uneventfully."
Day 4 "I put my potion in my, nah forget it, I've already burned three potions." "You get attacked by bugbears, roll for initiative."
Another possibility is that you wait until you know you'll be facing enemies, or at least pretty sure, and then using it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Another possibility is that you wait until you know you'll be facing enemies, or at least pretty sure, and then using it.
So people will pay 5k gold for the chance to drink their potion the round after they break down the door instead of the round before?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Cheapy,
It's a standard action to infuse the jacket with the potion. Once infused, the potion's effects may be triggered, as a swift action, in the next 24 hours. Potions with durations greater than instantanious can be divided into rounds, doesn't work on oils. Ooh, just caught this, only works on potions with instantanious and round based durations, so enlarge person is right out. So's shield of faith darkvision and a bunch of others.
Absorbent fibers line this heavy
canvas coat. Once per day as a
standard action, the wearer can pour
a potion onto this lining, suffusing
it into the coat. If the potion has an
instantaneous duration, the wearer
can activate the coat as a swift action
to consume the potion. If the potion’s
duration is measured in rounds, the wearer can activate the
coat as a swift action to gain the potion’s benefits for 1 round,
repeating as desired each round until the potion’s entire duration
has been used. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. The
coat absorbs only potions with instantaneous or round-based
durations, and only those which affect creatures (for example, it
does not work on oils). Once the coat absorbs a potion, the potion
cannot be retrieved from it, only used as described above. The
absorbed potion loses its powers after 24 hours, even if unused.
How would you guys make optimal use of this item?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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How would you guys make optimal use of this item?
Best use I can find for it is as a healing buff. Pour into shirt, move into combat. Since an AoO is still on my turn, I can use it if I get hit hard. (Standard -> Move for my flanking buddy -> get hit -> use swift action to heal).
I'm sure someone else will find something cheesier, I admit I don't know every spell in the book.
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Very nice, and I can see a great use for it, since Haste is round-based, and this could help, enormously, at those levels 'tween, when you don't have someone in the party able ro willing to cast Haste.
'tween being that time after you can afford the jacket, and before you pick up Boots of Speed or the Speed enhancement for your weapon.
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Honestly, I think this is on a different scale than the Quickrunner's Shirt. If you want to spend 25k gp + up to 5 potions to do this in 5 combats per day, then knock your socks off.
It's not 5k gp for 5 move actions per day. It's 5k gp to convert drinking a potion from a standard to a swift, and if it has a round/level duration then it's a swift action every round you want to use it. That means you're not using any other swift actions you may have. It doesn't let you move and full attack, which was really the big issue with the Quickrunner's Shirt.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Compare this to the boots of speed - 10,500 gp 10 rounds per day get one round of haste as a swift. The jacket is cheaper at first, but after 8 uses with a 3rd level potion, it's more expensive.
The potion of vanish trick is neat, but potion of vanish has a 1 round duration so it's a once/ day thing... most neat stuff you can do with the jacket are similarly limited to only a few rounds/ day and the more powerful effects are expensive to maintain on a regular basis.
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How would you guys make optimal use of this item?
Off the top of my head...
-Silence, centered on the user. This one has a lot of potential.
-Blink or displacement both seem really nice.
-Poor man's boots of speed with a potion of haste.
-I could see vanish being useful.
-As would liberating command.
-I could appreciate a swift-action emergency mage armor, useful when ambushed or when traveling with greedy players who don't share their spell slots.
-There's always the option of a swift-action cure serious wounds.
-Ooh... the ability to self-use gallant inspiration is worth investigating.
-I just checked on bladed dash, thank goodness that one's Personal and not potion-able.
This item isn't as egregious as the quickrunner's shirt, but as mentioned earlier, things that mess with actions are always "tread carefully." Fortunately, a discussion board is a great place to iron out these sorts of issues, if the posters are able to refrain from sarcasm and the "Nuh-uh! Yeah-huh!" oneupmanship, and instead think analytically.
Thank you, Feral, for bringing this item up.
-Matt
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The more I think about this, the more I think the power of this item has nothing to do with action economy. To get that benefit, you have to correctly guess whether you'll need a specific potion during the next 24 hours.
No, the value of this is to break up a potion's duration. When a fight starts, you spend the normal move and standard actions to pull out a potion and pour it into your shirt (yuck) and then spend a swift to start it up. If your buff potion of choice is irrelevant on a given round (you're paralyzed/unconscious, you're not near a target but it's an attack buff, whatever) you get to go through that round without ticking down the duration. Then when it becomes relevant again, you spend a swift action to take another hit from the jacket.
At least, that's my assessment.
Ah yea, Liberating Command would be nice.
If casters have time to prebuff (they do), then people have time to use this. Especially since it's 24 hours o_o
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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-Silence, centered on the user. This one has a lot of potential.
Nice! Take your turn normally, then before ending you activate a round of silence to shut down enemy casters. The effect ends at the beginning of your turn, so you can cast as normal. Rinse and repeat.
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Off the top of my head...
-Silence, centered on the user. This one has a lot of potential.
Spend a swift action for 3 rounds for 3 rounds of silence? Seems fair.
-Blink or displacement both seem really nice.
-Poor man's boots of speed with a potion of haste.
5 swift actions for 5 rounds of each of those. Again, not a huge deal IMO.
-I could see vanish being useful.
Invisibilty for 1 round as a swift action? Maybe give you a free sneak attack or allow to escape.
-As would liberating command.
Wouldn't work, as liberating command lets you make an Escape Artist check as an immediate action. Unfortunately, you have to have a swift action available to take an immediate action on your turn. You just used that to drink the potion.
-I could appreciate a swift-action emergency mage armor, useful when ambushed or when traveling with greedy players who don't share their spell slots.
Doesn't work, as mage armor is 1 hour/level duration.
-There's always the option of a swift-action cure serious wounds.
5k gp + 750gp/day to maybe your life? Doesn't seem unreasonable.
-Ooh... the ability to self-use gallant inspiration is worth investigating.
Gallant inspiration is already an immediate action. Hardly game-breaking to allow it as a self-use swift action.
-I just checked on bladed dash, thank goodness that one's Personal and not potion-able.
-Matt
So far I don't see anything that's going to single-handedly win combats.
Ok, the silence trick is pretty sweet, and can shut down a caster pretty effectively, but it's not much worse than casting silence on a stone or something.
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Doesn't work, as mage armor is 1 hour/level duration.
Oops.
The silence use really has me thinking. The spell is a "1 round" casting time normally, so of my list, the jacket has the largest effect on that spell.
I'm glad we had this discussion. I now know that the proper response to this tactic: ready an action to cast once the silence drops.
-Matt
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Compare this to the boots of speed - 10,500 gp 10 rounds per day get one round of haste as a swift. The jacket is cheaper at first, but after 8 uses with a 3rd level potion, it's more expensive.
5K gp for the jacket, one-time expense.
750 gp for erach potion of Haste, for 5 rounds, usuable more-or-less at will for a day.12K gp for Boots of Speed
7K gp difference in cost, besides requiring you to save up (or acquire froma single scenario/module the 12K gp)
7000/750 = 9.333
So, 9 uses of 5 rounds of Haste before the accumulated cost goes above that of the Boots of Speed.
18 Fame to purchase the Jacket
9 Fame to purchase the potions, or spend 2 PP per potion
31 Fame to purchase the Boot sof Speed
13 Fame difference, a minimum of 7 scenarios where you could make use of the jacket. And, once you can purchase the boots, you can use the jacket to hold some other potion as an option (potion of invisibility, gaseous form, cure X wounds, etc.)
And, at least for most of my PCs, using up their swift action for a turn won't do much. Yes, there are some builds which make great use of swift or immediate actions, but many builds don't.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The catch is that while you can afford the jacket at a much lower level, the 750gp per day is a lot of gold (or PA) at those levels, (1/3 of Subtier 4-5 expected reward, 1/4 for Subtier 6-7). Add to that the fact that a typical scenario might span 2-3 days and suddenly the jacket is much more expensive to use or simply not useful much of the time. You can only buy one item with PA in any given scenario and burning PA on potions every scenario to fuel this thing is a pretty huge cost.
The utility of the jacket is balanced by the fact that you have to commit expensive resources fueling it. How many people are going to spend 750 or 1500 gp per scenario to have this available? The per day expense alone is enough to keep most people away.
The silence thing is neat, but only for a fairly small number of characters who want to cast spells and silence enemies (magii, eldritch knight?), if you just want to silence them, it's far cheaper just to quaff the potion of silence or even cheaper to use a wand/ scroll.
Now if it worked with Extracts and infusions... :D
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The item doesn't seem to be in the same league as the Quickrunner's Shirt. My initial fear was fighters everywhere would be guzzling potions of Enlarge Person, but it doesn't work that way.
As for rogues prepping one round vanish, it's expensive and it's finally something nice for rogues. I think it's fine.
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hmm, this is not meant to be a troll response... but im Really confused on some of the rulings on this item.
page 179 PHB "The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there
are 10 rounds in a minute of combat."
the spell "shield" has a duration of 1 min/lvl
Ergo:
the spell "shield" has a duration of 10 rnd/lvl
the spell "Mage Armor" has a duration of 1 hour/lvl
Ergo
the spell "Mage Armor" has a duration of 60 rnd/lvl
.......
(I know this, as I constantly use a wand of mage armor and have to keep track of durations frequently in adventures.)
the item description does NOT mention an upper limit of rounds that the potion can contain. that would read something like:
"up to a maximum of 9 rounds"
the previous posts seem to use the logic: the instant you have a one min duration or more, this jacket will not accept the potion.
for example:
a 10th level cleric with brew potion cannot put his full caster level into a potion of prayer, as now the duration is 1 min. (or 10 rounds)
this does not make any sense to me. did I get a "pre-release" version of the book that is missing some text?
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I dont think you understand my question...
its like going to the store and saying "I need to walk out of this store with 32 oz of soda." and the store clerk saying "I'm sorry, we only sell 8 oz cans, try going to the other store down the street"
32 oz of soda = 4 * 8oz cans...... wtf.
^Edit 8 * 4 = 32 oops bad math
the wording on the coat only prevents "permanent" durations.
are you saying if a 12 level cleric brewed a potion of prayer (thus creating a 12 level caster potion of prayer ) that it would not work with this coat?
that's like saying "you can eat 6 seconds for free for every birthday you have had" then charging me for eating over a minute.
do you see the issue?
this should work with any spell that is
A> potion compatable
B> has a duration. (or is instantaneous)
what next, Am I to be told I cant benefit from mage armor in combat because its printed duration is not in rounds?
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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You don't get to use the jacket with any potions that last for a long time. That means if the potion has a duration quoted in minutes, you don't get to use it in the jacket. Saying "ah, but I can just multiply the number of minutes by 10, and say it lasts that many rounds" doesn't work.
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Thanks for your answer Will Johnson, you seem to get what I'm asking.
the issue seems to be poorly worded text in the item description.
it could have been written:
"The coat only absorbs potions with a duration of instantaneous or rounds per level in the spells base description"
- and that would have saved me a few arguments.....
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Honestly I don't see this as anything close to as bad as the quickrunners shirt.
+1
It's not as bad but I'm on the fence. This is probably a must-have item also at upper levels. If it were 1000g it would be must-have for everyone, since it's 5000g it's must-have for upper levels only.
The main problem I see with this item is that it makes potions more popular. This is a problem because players are notorious for not re-purchasing or buying potions when they use them. If the GM wants to mark and check chronicle sheets for potion usage, sure, but most GMs don't exactly check chronicles. So I can see this getting a little out of hand.