| 11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Does the Armor Training from Fighter 3 stack with that from Myrmidarch 8? Probably not a build a lot of folks are doing, but one of our players is currently an F3/Myr7 and is wondering if he will get to improve his Armor Training from fighter when he gains it as Myrmidarch 8. I am inclined to say "Yes" but wondered if there was an official answer.
I would be inclined to rule that the effects stack (given that nothing prohibits them from doing so), for a +2 max dex and -2 ACP. But as it is Fighter level 1 from two sources, I wouldn't grant the benefit of fighter training 2 in regards to unrestricted movement in heavy armor.
Agreed, RAW, it wouldn't work.
At the least, I would say they each work independently, so the armor check penalty and max dex bonus adjustments would stack, but you wouldn't add them together for determining movement speed or the like.
The source is the same, they wouldn't "stack." If they were different amounts you would get the best from either.
The "fighter training" ability specifically says "if he has levels in fighter, these levels stack", which neither the "weapon training" or "armor training" abilities specify. Which indicates that by RAW, they wouldn't stack.
But personally, I would let them stack. I feel the myrmidarch should have proper synergy with the fighter.
Yeah, it doesn't really make sense that if they had called it Mymidarch Armor Training and repeated all the verbiage, then it would stack because it is an untyped bonus, but because they tried to save page space they just referred back to the fighter ability, it doesn't stack.
The source is the same, they wouldn't "stack." If they were different amounts you would get the best from either.
This is neither A) a bonus, nor B) a spell or effect, which is what the rules of same source not stacking apply to.
I would not stack the benefits.
Anything that goes up by level, I'd stack the levels, as fighter training calls out. But not bonus's.
Stacking while outlined in the magic portion of the book, still occurs and comes into play outside of spells. "Effects" is a very very large unbrella and if an ability DOESN'T state it stacks with something, it doesn't stack by default. Feats are a prime example, if you have a feat and later gain the feat a second time from class or whatnot, you don't get to gain it's "effects" twice unless it explicitly says so. DR is another and given the time or desire I could find more, but my point is made.
Game design is based on telling you what you CAN do the vast majority of the time. If it was based on telling you what you CANNOT do, the book would never be published because the core rules would be a set of encyclopedias if we were lucky. Making calls on rules because "it doesn't say I can't do it" isn't a good gaming practice, it put it in a politically correct way.
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Stacking while outlined in the magic portion of the book, still occurs and comes into play outside of spells. "Effects" is a very very large unbrella and if an ability DOESN'T state it stacks with something, it doesn't stack by default. Feats are a prime example, if you have a feat and later gain the feat a second time from class or whatnot, you don't get to gain it's "effects" twice unless it explicitly says so. DR is another and given the time or desire I could find more, but my point is made.
Game design is based on telling you what you CAN do the vast majority of the time. If it was based on telling you what you CANNOT do, the book would never be published because the core rules would be a set of encyclopedias if we were lucky. Making calls on rules because "it doesn't say I can't do it" isn't a good gaming practice, it put it in a politically correct way.
But for example if you get Uncanny Dodge from 2 sources what happens?
Most of the abilities that grant uncanny dodge say something to the effect of "if you already have uncanny dodge from another source, you gain improved uncanny dodge instead".
Read the description of the second version to see how it interacts with the first, then follow what it says?
The general design of PF is that if you get the same level dependant ability from two sources the levels in the ability stack. Uncanny Dodge being one example. My guess is that they failed to spell this out in this case. Until it is spelled out you cannot stack the levels. FAQ'd
- Gauss
Another shortcoming of Paizo's work. They really should have mentioned something about this in the archetype description.
RAW no, but I believe that by intent, yes...
Based on what happens when Fighter Archetypes remove SOME Armor Training, the remaining ones apply 'as if' they were advancing it 'one step'.
Even if they don't 'stack' as in 'advancing' the part about movement restrictions,
the reduction in ACP should still apply from both classes...
Another shortcoming of Paizo's work. They really should have mentioned something about this in the archetype description.
You're assuming they meant it to stack? Paizo is pretty strict about giving out class defining abilities (of which armor training, the ability in question, is) so I don't see them intending it to stack unless stated to. Add in the fact that the training is non standard progression at specific levels, stacking is even less likely.
They should have stated something about the stacking or not. That we are in the dark is the problem. At the moment it just appears that they didn't give any thought about combining fighter with this archetype.
It could just as well stack, given that taking fighter levels means sacrifice in other areas.
JrK: WoTC had just as many oversights. Paizo is no different and maybe even a bit better. (3.0 was vastly worse than Paizo has been.)
Skylancer4: Yes, we are assuming they meant it to stack. It is a well established design principle that if you have another class's level based abilities and you are multiclassing with that class then they stack together to determine the level. Usually though it comes with a statement to that effect. It is easy to imagine they forgot that line in this case.
- Gauss
It is just as easy to imagine it was intentionally left out.
They should have stated something about the stacking or not. That we are in the dark is the problem. At the moment it just appears that they didn't give any thought about combining fighter with this archetype.
It could just as well stack, given that taking fighter levels means sacrifice in other areas.
Given that the general rule is that things don't stack unless stated, why is it that hard to comprehend that it might not be meant to stack as they didn't say it does stack? Maybe they have considered a multiclass with fighter and decided to not make it more attractive than normal to do so?
It could just as easily not stack, given that taking of magus levels means a sacrifice in other areas does it not?
By no means am I saying I know RAI, I'm saying I can read RAW and am not going to blame or fault Paizo for bad writing or assuming they didn't cover their bases every time I don't like something or disagree with something. Best bet, click FAQ and run with RAW until it changes.
Given that the general rule is that things don't stack unless stated, why is it that hard to comprehend that it might not be meant to stack as they didn't say it does stack? Maybe they have considered a multiclass with fighter and decided to not make it more attractive than normal to do so?
I do not entirely agree that the general rule is that things don't stack. We have rules concerning that the type of bonusses doesn't stack, and rules concerning that bonusses from the same source of spells and effects doesn't stack with eachother.
But as a general rule, if things do not fall into these categories, they do stack. We stack things all the time when calculating AC, attack bonusses, and damage bonusses.This is case which doesn't fall into the rules of not-stacking. Not being a bonus, and not being a spell or effect, there is nothing in RAW that suggest that we must disallow a synergy between the abilities.
HaraldKlak: What is more, there IS a general principle that two variable level based abilities from different classes do stack. Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge being two examples.
- Gauss
You mean the RAW of abilities stating they stack with other class levels that grant the same ability? That set of words that is absent in the magus archtype?
I'm not arguing intent, I'm saying that RAW the armor training from the archtype DOES NOT stack with the fighter class because unlike other class abilities which state they stack, it is missing the verbage for it.
If you think it is in error, feel free to click the FAQ and hope that the devs address it, until then RAW doesn't say they stack even if you believe that is the intent.
Skylancer4, I agree the RAW is that they do not stack. I stated this some time ago.
My posts are a response to your statements that in fact it is more reasonable to assume the developers forgot to put the line in since they normally do so on similar abilities. Of course, both of us are making guesses as to the developers intent.
- Gauss
HaraldKlak: What is more, there IS a general principle that two variable level based abilities from different classes do stack. Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge being two examples.
- Gauss
Two examples of abilities that have wording stating they stack, which this ability decidedly lacks.
Again I don't care about intent, if the intent was for it to stack they failed to make it RAW. They can fix it with a FAQ or an errata to that point. But we're in the Rules forum, so hammering down RAW for gameplay is the focus.
Skylancer4:
Good point, I normally stick to RAW in the rules forum. But in this case intent is important because if enough people feel the intent is that they should stack then they will hit the FAQ button.
Thus, we have RAW with a dose of possible intent in order to get a FAQ on something that so far, most people seem to agree is probably against the intent. Or at least against established general design principles of the game.
- Gauss
Edit: A FAQ thread belongs in the Rules forum btw. :)
You mean the RAW of abilities stating they stack with other class levels that grant the same ability? That set of words that is absent in the magus archtype?
I'm not arguing intent, I'm saying that RAW the armor training from the archtype DOES NOT stack with the fighter class because unlike other class abilities which state they stack, it is missing the verbage for it.
If you think it is in error, feel free to click the FAQ and hope that the devs address it, until then RAW doesn't say they stack even if you believe that is the intent.
You are somewhat comparing apples and oranges here. For level based class features, specifying that the levels stack has a distinctive function.
If they had the normal fighter armor training, this would make sense to specify since it would grant additional synergy.But given that they follow a different scaling of the ability, their levels cannot be counted together to know the effect.
However nothing in this suggest that the effect of both class features cannot be applied. In fact they can, without anything RAW suggesting otherwise.
A similar situation is the multi-classed caster, who have the "spells" class feature multiple times, which despite the same name, stacks in the sense that you get both effects, but the don't stack level-wise to affect eachother. Casting prestige classes on the other hand need to specify stacking, since they stack level-wise on the ability granted from another class.
I'm no pro-WOTC guy Gauss.
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From the CRB FAQ, under channel energy stacking
"No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on."
You are somewhat comparing apples and oranges here. For level based class features, specifying that the levels stack has a distinctive function.
If they had the normal fighter armor training, this would make sense to specify since it would grant additional synergy.But given that they follow a different scaling of the ability, their levels cannot be counted together to know the effect.
However nothing in this suggest that the effect of both class features cannot be applied. In fact they can, without anything RAW suggesting otherwise.
A similar situation is the multi-classed caster, who have the "spells" class feature multiple times, which despite the same name, stacks in the sense that you get both effects, but the don't stack level-wise to affect eachother. Casting prestige classes on the other hand need to specify stacking, since they stack level-wise on the ability granted from another class.
I disagree, it's apples and apples. If you take the dodge feat and later are granted the feat from a PrC or spell, you don't get +2 to dodge, you get +1. You have a redundant ability that doesn't stack with itself. If you have a Ring of Evasion and Evasion from levels in Rogue, you have redundant abilities. if you have Armor Training (-1) from levels of Fighter and Armor Training (-1) (or Armor Training 1 as they've started to call it) from levels of Magus, they are the same 'source' even if the source is different classes, and so are redundant abilities.
From the CRB FAQ, under channel energy stacking
"No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on."
Armor traning 1 from two diferent sources woild not give armor traning 2. However each one separately reduce the Armor check penalty, so that bonus should stack. Or at least is how i would rule.
"Armor Training 1" and "Armor Training 1" are the same source.
Each one has seperate uses per day that need to be tracked and wouldn't increase each others effectiveness unless they are stated to stack, in which case their effectiveness would increase but uses would not. That is oranges in comparson to the apples of Armor Training.
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As they are untyped reductions and increases, I would allow them to stack by combined level, with a penalty to level. Meaning a fighter 3/magus (myrmidarch) 8 would have armor training 2, factoring in a -3 which is (or should be) implied by Fighter Training gained at magus (myrmidarch) 7. IMO.
While there's not much supporting this interpretation in regards to Armor Training, I agree that this is how it should work.
As they are untyped reductions and increases, I would allow them to stack by combined level, with a penalty to level. Meaning a fighter 3/magus (myrmidarch) 8 would have armor training 2, factoring in a -3 which is (or should be) implied by Fighter Training gained at magus (myrmidarch) 7. IMO.
The general rules of the game don't back that up though. Maybe if it were an untyped bonus it could bear out that way, however they are actually called out as an ability "Armor Training X" which means we have a source of varying degrees and the general rules of the game disallow "stacking" of the same source, the general rules of the game allow for the best/highest effect of multiple instances of a single source.
It's like DR #/-. If you have DR 1/- and DR 3/- you don't get DR 4/-, you have DR 3/-. It's an "untyped reduction" to damage taken, so by your opinion they should stack. But they don't. Same ability, different values, use the "best" value.
They should have stated something about the stacking or not. That we are in the dark is the problem. At the moment it just appears that they didn't give any thought about combining fighter with this archetype.
It could just as well stack, given that taking fighter levels means sacrifice in other areas.
Given that the general rule is that things don't stack unless stated, why is it that hard to comprehend that it might not be meant to stack as they didn't say it does stack? Maybe they have considered a multiclass with fighter and decided to not make it more attractive than normal to do so?
It could just as easily not stack, given that taking of magus levels means a sacrifice in other areas does it not?
By no means am I saying I know RAI, I'm saying I can read RAW and am not going to blame or fault Paizo for bad writing or assuming they didn't cover their bases every time I don't like something or disagree with something. Best bet, click FAQ and run with RAW until it changes.
Just out of curiosity, can you find me an example of a "typed" bonus to armor check penalties?
Just out of curiosity, can you find me an example of a "typed" bonus to armor check penalties?They should have stated something about the stacking or not. That we are in the dark is the problem. At the moment it just appears that they didn't give any thought about combining fighter with this archetype.
It could just as well stack, given that taking fighter levels means sacrifice in other areas.
Given that the general rule is that things don't stack unless stated, why is it that hard to comprehend that it might not be meant to stack as they didn't say it does stack? Maybe they have considered a multiclass with fighter and decided to not make it more attractive than normal to do so?
It could just as easily not stack, given that taking of magus levels means a sacrifice in other areas does it not?
By no means am I saying I know RAI, I'm saying I can read RAW and am not going to blame or fault Paizo for bad writing or assuming they didn't cover their bases every time I don't like something or disagree with something. Best bet, click FAQ and run with RAW until it changes.
Armor Training X? Seriously that, Masterwork, Mithril (and any other material that "reduces") are essentially what you are asking for.
No, those are sources.
Like for Armor Class, I can get a deflection bonus from different sources, but deflection bonuses don't stack. I'm just curious if any specific type of bonus to armor check penalties is ever actually typed. As far as I can tell, every bonus to armor check penalties is untyped, whether it's from materials, spells, magic items, classes, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong, which would be pointing to a source that says something like:
Super Awesome: This ability gives you a Smooth bonus to armor check penalties. 60% of the time it works all the time.
I've read that before BUT notice it is in regards to an archtype and that particular class getting abilities that increase on themselves. NOT multiclass stacking. You have a fighter getting one set of abilities and magus getting the same ability, the magus stacks with itself, the fighter stacks with itself, the fighter and magus aren't stated to stack and the rule you stated doesn't reference multiclass just single class. It doesn't come into play RAW.
No, those are sources.
Like for Armor Class, I can get a deflection bonus from different sources, but deflection bonuses don't stack. I'm just curious if any specific type of bonus to armor check penalties is ever actually typed. As far as I can tell, every bonus to armor check penalties is untyped, whether it's from materials, spells, magic items, classes, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong, which would be pointing to a source that says something like:
Super Awesome: This ability gives you a Smooth bonus to armor check penalties. 60% of the time it works all the time.
Armor training is a source, it has multiple amounts, just like DR as I mentioned earlier. It isn't a bonus or penalty either, it is a reduction spelled out from a source. Two completely different animals game mechanically.
If Armor Training from separate sources does not stack, does that mean Weapon Training from different sources does not stack?
Also, if Sargavan Guard and Armor Expert stack, why not Armor Training?
If the source of the weapon training doesnt say it stacks, there isn't any errata/FAQ for the case in question, than no it wouldn't. Weapon training is slightly different because it isn't a static increase to the same thing, you choose groups. If you got weapon training from one class and then again from another you would have a +1 for the first group and a +1 for the second group, no +2 (again barring errata or an FAQ that might be floating around out there).
The traits are two seperate sources, not Armor Training (x) and Armor Training (y), which is the same source with different amounts of reduction.