Now fair is fair, here is our Human Inquisitor Oleg Ilyanovik. What do you think about his appearance?
The Masters of the Universe were a set of lurid, rapacious plastic dolls that his otherwise perfect daughter liked to play with. They looked like Norse gods who lifted weights, and they had names such as Dracon, Ahor, Mangelred, and Blutong. They were unusually vulgar, even for plastic toys.
Your guy has a better name, I'll give him that.
I dunno. Mangelred is pretty hilarious if you speak Swedish.
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Now fair is fair, here is our Human Inquisitor Oleg Ilyanovik. What do you think about his appearance?
The few times I actually play a fighter type, this is more of what I imagine.
How do find good portraits that match your characters? Just google image search?
For example, here's a sorceress character of mine: Xenarchy Malzash
www.deviantart.com
A lot of artists that work for Paizo have web pages there, and there's a lot of good fantasy art on it.
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This is a parody image and rather funny, I find the facial expression of the woman especially amusing. But it does kinda go with what I mentioned earlier about one of the things that most annoys me about fantasy art, the woman put in a subservient position/role in the art. You can find the artwork here. It is work safe but borderline.
I'd totally drink gallons of BZRK! :D You made my day, D_M! XD
So manly he wears hoop earrings!
This is a parody image and rather funny, I find the facial expression of the woman especially amusing. But it does kinda go with what I mentioned earlier about one of the things that most annoys me about fantasy art, the woman put in a subservient position/role in the art. You can find the artwork here. It is work safe but borderline.
That is hilarious. And yes, mocks exactly the kind of artwork that I think turns women away from fantasy materials.
Wow perfect example. Thanks Dark_Mistress.
I was looking for an example of male supers posed like and wearing female style costumes but I couldn't find the page any more. Your example works better anyway.
Feiya's charisma is quite rubbish. She doesn't know how to dress herself.
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Wow perfect example. Thanks Dark_Mistress.
I was looking for an example of male supers posed like and wearing female style costumes but I couldn't find the page any more. Your example works better anyway.
There's this one of the Avengers that made the rounds not too long ago. They're not in female style costumes... Just in Escher-girl-poses. The one of The Hulk cannot be unseen.
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Not sure if this has been brought up, but the idea of women wearing boob armor has always bothered me, not only because it seems odd, but because of the mechanics of armor (I know boob armor is brought up a lot, but the reasons might be different).
As a martial artist (and with many friends active in the SCA), I see a lot of full force combat scenarios. Armor is meant to deflect blows and protect the wearer. With a flat or slightly curved shape breast plate, weapon strikes are more likely to deflect to the side, protecting the wearer by reducing the impact of the blow. If you include two metallic boob-shaped extrusions on the breast plate, that gives a spot to stop the weapon rather than deflect, bringing the full force of the blow directly to the chest cavity. Punctured lungs and shattered ribs, anyone?
It's just not feasible for realistic combat.
Wow perfect example. Thanks Dark_Mistress.
I was looking for an example of male supers posed like and wearing female style costumes but I couldn't find the page any more. Your example works better anyway.
There's this one of the Avengers that made the rounds not too long ago. They're not in female style costumes... Just in Escher-girl-poses. The one of The Hulk cannot be unseen.
Has this been posted yet? Male comic book heroes dressed in cliche comic heroine's clothes.
A word on cheesecake art and selling to males, if I may.
Disclaimer: I am an extremely hetero male.When I see a woman in realistic battle armor, with muscle tone, and who looks like she can run several miles without her boobs getting in the way? That races my motor.
I am also a heterosexual male, and I like pictures of women in skimpy costumes. I also like to see women (and men) in armor that looks like it is powerful and deadly. Men in skimpy costumes obviously don't interest me as much, but it doesn't bother me either.
So when I see a sexy woman on the cover of a book it grabs my attention. I admit it. Now, if it is obviously pandering I may still look at it, but it will be with a more sceptical eye. So, you might get me to look at your product with an eye-catching woman on the cover, but I will not buy the book unless it delivers some substance on the inside.
When I see a boobalicious woman in a stripper costume like Seoni? I generally look for other products. Equally bad is when I see anorexic "little-girl" women like Lidda and Merisiel. (That's not to say the women should be obese; all that extra weight would inhibit their adventuring, n'est-ce pas?)
As to the "boobalicious" or equally bad "anorexic little-girl women", they are not bad. To echo what many of the women who have posted on this thread said earlier, it is about variety. There are attractive "boobalicious" women out there in real life. There are also many other types and they should all get some screen time.
I take special exception to the description of "anorexic little-girl women" as bad. When I met my wife she was in her early twenties, 4'11" tall and 78lbs. She is also smart, strong-willed and talented. What's so bad about her? Is it some kind of perversion that I should be ashamed of that I was attracted to her? I am not a big guy. I am shorter than average and thin, so is it that strange that I like short, thin women?
I don't want Playboy bunnies in my fantasy art. I don't want Twiggy. I want Joan of Arc and Brienne and so on.
And I'm a guy.
Bottom line, it's nice that you like what you like. But there are plenty of guys that like Playboy bunnies. Others like Twiggy types and there are plenty of others that like women that are more full figured.
Personally I think that the vast majority of breast implants out there are a crime against nature (I mentioned I like slender women didn't I?), but I seem to be in the minority.
I am also a heterosexual male, and I like pictures of women in skimpy costumes. I also like to see women (and men) in armor that looks like it is powerful and deadly. Men in skimpy costumes obviously don't interest me as much, but it doesn't bother me either. So when I see a sexy woman on the cover of a book it grabs my attention. I admit it.
That's fine and dandy. I didn't claim my preferences were universal; only that the typical rationalization of "well, we need Playboy covers in order to sell to men" is counterproductive in the case of at least one member (and I would assume many others as well) of the target consumer group.
The old excuse may be true for you; I have no idea -- but it's not always true, and I doubt if it's even most often true.
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You need to recognize that most fantasy RPG settings are truly gender-neutral in terms of roles, professions, and achievements.
But really they're not. It's easy to look at a few of the iconic settings (including Forgotten Realms, Golarion, and Eberron for example). Just looking at the major gods in golarion (one of the better settings from a gender perspective), 12 are men and 8 are women. Looking at the iconic characters, 3/6 female have stupid/unreasonable/sexualizing clothing (barbarian, rogue, sorcerer) while only 1/7 (again, more men than women) of the men have this (monk).
Stating that "fantasy rpg settings are truly gender-neutral" comes across as ignorance by the privileged (I don't know your sex or gender, and I'm not saying you're ignorant, but that statement was).
Ignoring gender tends to favor the status quo. I say this as a person who's been active in several groups working against racism, sexism, homo- and transphobia and the other hierarchies. Even within our own group we've needed to deliberately track who's talking, how people are talking and other things and analyze this from different perspectives. Even within our own groups, working against this very kind of things, when we ignored gender (identity), sex, and race, white cis-men tended to speak more than everyone else, and in more absolute terms rather than questions.
And the fact that LPJ felt the need to start this thread indicates that the company at least might get less bad in this respect. There's no trying too hard in this case.
EDIT: To second Kirth, I'm also a cis-male that can be attracted to females but don't care for sexualized covers. It feels like "sell stuff with a girl" (link is to a swedish image gallery, if you wonder about suspect address/weird language).
To look at a fictional work that was decently gender neutral, look at Battlestar Galactica. Then compare it to the later created prequel Caprica, which was less well-made from a gender perspective. Compare and analyze what went right in the first but wrong in the second, despite them being made by the same people in the same universe.
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To look at a fictional work that was decently gender neutral, look at Battlestar Galactica.
DISCLAIMER: He obviously means the 2000s reboot, not the 1970s original!
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I think the question is, mostly:
If Aragorn had done everything he did, carried himself with the same msytery + decorum and been utterly badass as he is... would it have made any difference if he had been she, if Aragella had been the Queen of Gondor, would she have been any less awesome?
If the answer is yes, you're a terrible person and should reconsider your entire soul.
If the answer is no then... take that thought and carry it with you as you write.
To look at a fictional work that was decently gender neutral, look at Battlestar Galactica.DISCLAIMER: He obviously means the 2000s reboot, not the 1970s original!
Yes. Yes, I very much mean the reboot xD
EDIT:
Remember that just because the gender distribution may technically be equal within a group, that doesn't necessarily have to mean it's a good gender representation.
One easy example is to look at two of the main "pairs" of the series': In battlestar galactica, you have Kara "Starbuck" Thrace and Lee "Apollo" Adama, both fighter pilots and officers in the fleet. In their relationship to each other, both have complex feelings of different kinds, on and off, and in the series in general, their main roles (apart from being sociable creatures) is that of their jobs: Fighter pilots and officers.
Compare this to one of Caprica's main pairs, Daniel and Amanda Greystone. Daniel and Amanda both have respectable professions - engineer and surgeon respectively - yet we never get to see Amanda in her professional role, while Daniel is shown that way all the time. When it comes to feelings, Daniel is portrayed as the "rational" and "stable" part of the relationship (or at least far less unstable), with Amanda being an irrational, emotional "sink" to a large degree. Women are shown as manipulative a lot, while men are shown as brutish. Daniel takes a lot of initiatives in handling his issues, while Amanda just gets shoved around.
Now, there are good things in that show too - i'm not saying it's all bad - but there's a definitive difference there in how it portrays women and men.
Since this was brought up today to me and I have never done it, I wanted to ask people opinion on it: How does the possibility of cosplay OR the lack there of effect your choices to play in a RPG setting? This is more for people who DO cosplay over those that don't. Thanks!
An answer from an old time male gamer:
1. For a fantasy example from D&D itself, check out the Gynarchy of Hardby from Greyhawk.
2. There are many, many, many examples from fantasy literature of the last 20 years that are useful references. The DAW revolution of the 90s, ranging from Tanya Huff to Mercedes Lackey (Heralds of Valdemar, Chronicles of Alanna, Wizard of the Grove Duology, Deed of Paksennarion, Moon's new series), Min from Sanderson's Mistborn saga, some of the women from Wheel of Time (the Aes Sedai, the Windtamers, etc). Melanie Rawn's Sunrunner series, Gail Robertson's Dragonsword duology, Taizu from C.J Cherry's the Paladin. My two biggest recommendations would be Kamala from C.S Friedman's the Magister Trilogy, and Merlin from David Weber's Safehold series.
Kamala is a sorceress who has to feed on the life force of humans to wield power, as do all spellcasters in the Trilogy's world. It's an interesting example of a woman gaining power in a male-dominated society, and having to battle another woman who finds another method to wield the same power, but with even more dire consequences (the Magisters merely shift from one host to another to drain, while this other caster makes an alliance with a creature that feeds from everything that lives). Merlin is a woman from Earth, who has to become a man in a cybernetic body (which can change gender) so she can bring back human society to a planet constructed with an artificial religious-sociologial matrix designed to prevent invention beyond certain levels. The irony is that the matrix was designed by humanity to prevent aliens from destroying them completely, and the directors became convinced they should never advance beyond this point.
3. Don't be afraid to explore mature themes from multiple perspectives, such as slavery, prejudice, love, war, magic, etc. Or even challenge the idea of gender itself, as Ursula Leguin did in her writing. And my last suggestion, no more S&M uniforms masquerading as clothing. I had enough of that in White Wolf. (Looks at cover of the newCastle Maure with Eli Tomorast the demon graft freak caster in leather stretchy pants....)
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Since this was brought up today to me and I have never done it, I wanted to ask people opinion on it: How does the possibility of cosplay OR the lack there of effect your choices to play in a RPG setting? This is more for people who DO cosplay over those that don't. Thanks!
This is less about females in RPG and more about race in RPG.
Cosplay-wise, I find that it is difficult to cosplay as most of my favorite characters from an anime, video game, or PRG because it's rare to see any Hispanic character portrayed as anything more than a side character. I think I've cosplayed as Brock from Pokemon and Barret from FF7 more times than I really want to. I'd really like to see a couple more iconics and other artwork that expanded to several types of ethnicity. It's something I'm impressed by Paizo tbh. I'm working on my Sajan costume now! And by that, I mean I'm going to the gym...
Just something to consider. It's great you want to appeal to the female players. I just hope you appeal to others that may feel marginalized by the current trend of video games/rpgs/anime/etc.
If Aragorn had done everything he did, carried himself with the same msytery + decorum and been utterly badass as he is... would it have made any difference if he had been she, if Aragella had been the Queen of Gondor, would she have been any less awesome?
If the answer is yes, you're a terrible person and should reconsider your entire soul.
If the answer is no then... take that thought and carry it with you as you write.
Aragorn is a straw man. His primary traits, as you have mentioned, are not masculine per se. I can easily imagine Mercedes Lackey writing a story with Aragella. (*)
Instead consider the ultimate scruffy masculine hero: Disney's Robin Hood.
He is brave, loyal, and funny. Generous, charming and debonair. All the women call him handsome. He can handle a sword, swing from a rope, or dive from atop a burning tower. Good with kids in a slightly rough and tumble way. Even risks his life to save a friend's kid. Confident but not arrogant. His biggest desires are a peaceful town and a stable marriage with his childhood sweetheart. He is not the best at everything, but is the local champion of at least one thing.
It's no wonder that movie launched the Furry subculture. Robin Hood is a dreamboat.
He is also an idealized male role model purposefully put in a story whose biggest target audience is young boys old enough to be paying extra attention to male role models.
You can't change his gender without utterly changing his core.
So, sure, let 99% of your NPCs have personalities that are independent of gender. But it is no crime -- and may enrich the setting -- to have a few NPCs that are irrevocably masculine or feminine.
(And ask yourself who seems better husband material, Aragorn or Robin Hood, and why?)
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(*) I say Mercedes Lackey because Tolkien would not have written about Aragella. In Tolkien's mind a core part of Aragorn is that he is the rightful king. The Peter Jackson movies minimize this by making Denthor so detestable. In the books it is very clear that Aragorn should be king irrelevant to if he would rule better than Denthor because he is the rightful king. It is Christian imagery, just like Aragorn descending into the earth to free the imprisoned souls before ascending back to the surface to claim his throne. Tolkien intentionally distributed aspects of Christ imagery among Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam; leaving Aragorn out of that dynamic would have been really strange.
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Although the pictures of the male super heroes in drag are pretty darn funny, I am not sure if gender neutral should be the goal as much as gender appropriate. I think is is important to remember that men and women are different... and yes they even dress differently...on purpose and of their own free will. Every day I see women walk by in ridiculously small outfits not because someone made them but because that is what they want to wear. I see no reason why people in a fantasy world would be any different.
That being said someone's occupation has an impact on dress. Female steel workers don't wear mini-skirts and female warriors should wear armor. I think the key therefore is not to expect the sexes to be protrayed exactly the same but to be protrayed appropriately.
I am sure it has been discussed here but another topic that should come up is the protrayal of men and why most out of shape regular guys don't have a problem with heroes all looking like olypic athletes. I think the key to this is that they are heroes and we expect them to be exceptional. I don't want to roleplay middle-aged out of shape guy (I can do that any day without pretending). When I play I want to be a hero.
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So here is some of my thoughts coming as a male gamer and GM:
I think a lot of what keeps women away from tables is male attitudes about role playing. Now, there isn't a lot that a system can do to combat that. But it can take steps to make sure it isn't encouraging that kind of behavior.
I've been fortunate enough that at all my tables we've had a nice 50/50 mix of men and women, and a lot of that is taking great strides to make the table a safe environment for everyone to play. I have a zero tolerance policy for sexist behavior at my table. You don't have the right to make one of my players feel uncomfortable with your behavior. You cause problems and you are gone. I have people waiting to fill seats in some of my games.
In terms of designing a system, the best idea is to make everything gender neutral. If that becomes a challenge, I like what pathfinder has done in making every other class male or female for the purposes of pronouns and sticking with that convention.
When it comes to designing a campaign or a setting or story, a big pitfall is thinking in terms of gender. I notice that you posted in one of your early threads about what is a typical Male or Female class, and I think that's a big mistake
Imagine if someone had asked "What is the typical white class and what is the typical black class?" You'd say that is stupid, and racist. Well it's pretty much the same thing with gender. Women want to be treated as people.
I really liked the idea someone posted about designing characters without gender in mind and then assigning genders at random. I've done that myself in the past and it creates great characters.
These ideas are good because they give the players a great deal of freedom in designing the game they want, and thus, you don't have to worry about sexism in the system.
Since this was brought up today to me and I have never done it, I wanted to ask people opinion on it: How does the possibility of cosplay OR the lack there of effect your choices to play in a RPG setting? This is more for people who DO cosplay over those that don't. Thanks!
Cosplay doesn't particularly decide whether I play or not, good mechanics, setting, and gameplay do. Cosplay is however a nice bonus. A good game that presents relatively easy to cosplay characters (both for male and female cosplayers) will be more well-liked in my books than an equally good game with mostly difficult characters to cosplay.
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Although the pictures of the male super heroes in drag are pretty darn funny, I am not sure if gender neutral should be the goal as much as gender appropriate. I think is is important to remember that men and women are different... and yes they even dress differently...on purpose and of their own free will. Every day I see women walk by in ridiculously small outfits not because someone made them but because that is what they want to wear. I see no reason why people in a fantasy world would be any different.
"Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.
Whether or not there are differences beyond the cultural norm, the cultural norm sure makes up the majority of it (as easily proven as many things considered "masculine" now where considered "feminine" in other societies and vice versa).
That a fantasy game has to be the same, or that a fantasy game has to (indirectly) PROMOTE that sexist structures through having them without considering them is a bad idea. I see enough of that in real life - when I play fantasy I want to get away from all that crap. And when sexism is in a fantasy fiction, I want it portrayed as a bad thing, not neutral (or even "good" as it is often done).
While there's no reason people in a fantasy world would be any different, you choose what society to portray. It's natural that in a sexist society women and men will act very differently, but you can also instead portray a non-sexist society where the sexists are the bad guys, just like how in most fantasy settings racism is portrayed as a negative trait (unfortunately it's often excused too though).
Cosplay doesn't particularly decide whether I play or not, good mechanics, setting, and gameplay do. Cosplay is however a nice bonus. A good game that presents relatively easy to cosplay characters (both for male and female cosplayers) will be more well-liked in my books than an equally good game with mostly difficult characters to cosplay.
Is the ability to dress up for cosplay OR is it the ability to do some live role playing that interests you most about cosplay?
And the fact that LPJ felt the need to start this thread indicates that the company at least might get less bad in this respect. There's no trying too hard in this case.
Felt the need, or saw a marketing opportunity in starting another discussion on the topic?
This just smacks of "reverse pandering" to me.
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"Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.
This paragraph is bullcrap. Pure and utter bullcrap.
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"Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.This paragraph is bullcrap. Pure and utter bullcrap.
No Brian it isn't.
We all, women and men, have a dress code we have to follow. It's painted on by cultural expectations. You do have to wear sexy clothing IRL if you want to be seen as part of the trendy crowd. Even rebel cliques have their own dress codes or you are quickly ostracized from the group. Do you go to a job interview or even the job itself wearing something comfortable NO you dress how they expect you to dress or you don't get to have the job.
I wish I could cosplay... but I don't want to do it alone so I don't.
And the fact that LPJ felt the need to start this thread indicates that the company at least might get less bad in this respect. There's no trying too hard in this case.Felt the need, or saw a marketing opportunity in starting another discussion on the topic?
This just smacks of "reverse pandering" to me.
You are confused. Reverse pandering would be making these games to only fulfill what women what. They are trying to appeal to each gender in a fair way.
Cosplay doesn't particularly decide whether I play or not, good mechanics, setting, and gameplay do. Cosplay is however a nice bonus. A good game that presents relatively easy to cosplay characters (both for male and female cosplayers) will be more well-liked in my books than an equally good game with mostly difficult characters to cosplay.Is the ability to dress up for cosplay OR is it the ability to do some live role playing that interests you most about cosplay?
Realistic builds rather than the super heroic body on some of the characters would be different and I don't think the fans would mind. You don't see many plus size Iconics I don't think they would look bad. It is something I'm working on in my own artwork since I found that most of my characters looked like comic book super heroes.
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"Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.This paragraph is bullcrap. Pure and utter bullcrap.No Brian it isn't.
We all, women and men, have a dress code we have to follow. It's painted on by cultural expectations. You do have to wear sexy clothing IRL if you want to be seen as part of the trendy crowd. Even rebel cliques have their own dress codes or you are quickly ostracized from the group. Do you go to a job interview or even the job itself wearing something comfortable NO you dress how they expect you to dress or you don't get to have the job.
Free will is not bullcrap if you have a choice in whether to act as you perceive that society wishes you to.
You'd also be on very thin ice if you didn't hire the most qualified candidate for the job just because you didn't like how they dressed - there's a whole world of discrimination lawsuits wrapped up in that.
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Free will is not bullcrap if you have a choice in whether to act as you perceive that society wishes you to."Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.This paragraph is bullcrap. Pure and utter bullcrap.No Brian it isn't.
We all, women and men, have a dress code we have to follow. It's painted on by cultural expectations. You do have to wear sexy clothing IRL if you want to be seen as part of the trendy crowd. Even rebel cliques have their own dress codes or you are quickly ostracized from the group. Do you go to a job interview or even the job itself wearing something comfortable NO you dress how they expect you to dress or you don't get to have the job.
Or the ability to choose not to give a damn about "being seen as a part of the trendy crowd" or any "clique" or "group" to be ostracized from.
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Since this was brought up today to me and I have never done it, I wanted to ask people opinion on it: How does the possibility of cosplay OR the lack there of effect your choices to play in a RPG setting? This is more for people who DO cosplay over those that don't. Thanks!
I've been thinking about this, as I'm not really a cosplayer, but there is fantasy artwork, including fantasy RPG artwork, that occasionally makes me go, "Ooh, I wonder if I could dress up as that." (For example, if I could find some boots with lifts, I'd want to see if I could carry off Imrijka... Ah but that's my personal problem with cosplay, I'm too tall to be a dwarf, too short to be a half-orc, and too fat to be anything else--which is no one's issue but my own, mind. It is what it is. Course, I could fairly easily cosplay as that chick from Dr Lucky there, but even then I wear glasses usually and can't wear contacts... dammit!)
I also think about conversations I have with cosplayers.
I think while they may buy artwork that inspires them to cosplay, which may include RPG books, if they're not interested in the game, they probably still won't play it.
But by the same token, cosplayers who are passionate about a game or story will find a reason to cosplay a character in it if they love it enough.
So I would say that if what you want is to attract folks to games, make it a good game and include good artwork. If it's GOOD, the cosplayer will find reason to cosplay your artwork and stick around. If the game is BAD, maybe they'll cosplay it if they like the art, but they still won't be playing, which is more your goal, if I'm not mistaken.
Cosplay doesn't particularly decide whether I play or not, good mechanics, setting, and gameplay do. Cosplay is however a nice bonus. A good game that presents relatively easy to cosplay characters (both for male and female cosplayers) will be more well-liked in my books than an equally good game with mostly difficult characters to cosplay.Is the ability to dress up for cosplay OR is it the ability to do some live role playing that interests you most about cosplay?
For me personally, it's the ability to dress up. I'm not much of a LARPer. Some people are though.
"Free will" is bullcrap. You dress that way because your social experiences tell you to. Women want to wear "small outfits" because that's the way they're told they should act, just like men will objectify them because that's the way they're told they should act.This paragraph is bullcrap. Pure and utter bullcrap.No Brian it isn't.
We all, women and men, have a dress code we have to follow. It's painted on by cultural expectations. You do have to wear sexy clothing IRL if you want to be seen as part of the trendy crowd. Even rebel cliques have their own dress codes or you are quickly ostracized from the group. Do you go to a job interview or even the job itself wearing something comfortable NO you dress how they expect you to dress or you don't get to have the job.
Free will is not bullcrap if you have a choice in whether to act as you perceive that society wishes you to.
You'd also be on very thin ice if you didn't hire the most qualified candidate for the job just because you didn't like how they dressed - there's a whole world of discrimination lawsuits wrapped up in that.
Really? Most professional companies I know about will tell you that if you don't wear a suit, they won't hire you, no matter his good your qualifications are. It shows lack of respect and an unwillingness to conform to company policy, which are two qualities every company looks for. I've been to a lot of job fairs; and it's fairly standard that if you want a job interview or a job, you need to dress sharp. Jobs are not just about qualifications, they're also about how well you will fit with the company.
And to provoke thought, are you showing free will if you decide not to follow the trends of society, or are you just following the trends of a smaller group to which you relate (or want to relate)? Is it truly free will, or is it a different sum of experienced that causes you to choose a different path? After all, your brain is just a collection of chemicals (albeit a complex interaction of them), and the neurons in your brain have been selected based on your experiences. (No one has to answer this, it's just a thought game).
Edited to remove double quoting.
And to provoke thought, are you showing free will if you decide not to follow the trends of society, or are you just following the trends of a smaller group to which you relate (or want to relate)?
What if you don't want to relate to any group period? What if you simply want to do what you want to do, regardless of whether anyone else besides yourself approves or disapproves? What if any similarity between a group's desires and your own is coincidence, nothing more?
Your actions will have consequences, surely - you may well be ostracized, and if the things you want to do have been deemed illegal or harmful you might well be punished for pursuing them. But you still have the choice to do so and risk said consequences, or plan for them, or to go along with the crowd.
A choice that is followed by an undesirable outcome doesn't make it any less of a choice. And for some, they might not be so undesirable. Speaking for myself alone, 99% of what the "in crowd" is looking for is unwanted by me. I don't care for the majority of fads, I'm not into sports or the vast majority of the drivel that Hollywood puts out. I don't dislike them enough to participate in any kind of counter-movement, so that's out. I just ignore most of it and go about my daily life. (Granted, I'm far from an example case in any regard, between being a virtual hermit, highly asocial, asexual, and apathetic to the idea of what others think of me, so full disclosure there I guess.)
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Most professional companies I know about will tell you that if you don't wear a suit, they won't hire you, no matter his good your qualifications are. It shows lack of respect and an unwillingness to conform to company policy, which are two qualities every company looks for.
You might be able to get away with it if there is a reasonable justification for a company dress code - safety or branding or something like that. Otherwise you are open to discrimination lawsuits. If your advert mentions a smart suit dress code, you could even be open to a lawsuit from someone who was put off from applying if they can show that their race/religion/gender would be unlikely to possess/wear such a thing. This probably varies strongly by country though.
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And the fact that LPJ felt the need to start this thread indicates that the company at least might get less bad in this respect. There's no trying too hard in this case.Felt the need, or saw a marketing opportunity in starting another discussion on the topic?
This just smacks of "reverse pandering" to me.
FWIW, whenever anyone says "reverse [whatever]", I automatically think: "Oh, there's someone who was born into privilege. They think that they're special; and so any [whatever] that's suddenly aimed at them when it's 'supposed' to be directed at others (like discrimination), or vice-versa (like pandering)? That's shocking and 'reverse'. Whereas everyone else is just supposed to suck it up as their lot in life. What an [redacted]."
ETA: And I say that as an attractive white male. It's not that I don't have privileges; it's just that I appreciate them.
You are confused. Reverse pandering would be making these games to only fulfill what women what. They are trying to appeal to each gender in a fair way.
Nope, not confused at all. What I'm referring to is a marketing scheme that panders to those who feel the "sexy" art is pandering to a particular demographic.
No Brian it isn't.
We all, women and men, have a dress code we have to follow. It's painted on by cultural expectations. You do have to wear sexy clothing IRL if you want to be seen as part of the trendy crowd. Even rebel cliques have their own dress codes or you are quickly ostracized from the group. Do you go to a job interview or even the job itself wearing something comfortable NO you dress how they expect you to dress or you don't get to have the job.
Yes, it really is.
Employment-dictated dress codes are a cop-out example. As far as "sexy" clothing required to be "trendy", you're failing to realize that there's a multitude of "trends" out there, and there's no societal requirement to be a part of any specific trend (or any trend at all, really).
If you feel the need, well, I'm sorry that you're weak-willed.