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As for the topic, I have one key word that is a must. VARIETY!
Women like men come in all shapes, sizes, and personalities. We have just as wide of a range of likes and dislikes as men.
Sluts, strippers, cheesecake art, helpless princess etc. Thats all fine as long as that is not all or even most of the females. For every Cersei have a Brienne, for every Brienne have a Catelyn(game of throne characters.) Have the warrior women, have the barbarian woman(conan but swap genders), have the seductive rogue, have the motherly druid, have the stripper Sorc.
Just have variety, have the princess that needs saved, but also have the prince that needs saved. Make the characters of both genders complex with virtues as well as vices.
When it comes to art, have the stripper sorc, the cheesecake fighter with boob armor, or the half naked druid, but also have the full plate wearing Paladin, the complete clad in black leather from head to toe rogue, the portly practically dressed cleric who acts like every ones mother. Then do the same for the men, have the loin cloth wearing ripped barbarian, have the heavily armored fighter, have the Cassanova Bard, Have the Fatherly wizard who acts like everyones father.
Just have variety in art, concepts, characters, personalities etc for both genders giving equal attention to every area.
If you do that you will appeal to everyone to a point and most people don't mind some things not of their taste if there is things they do like.
As for art I have less of a issue with clothing or lack of, what bugs me tends to be the impossible stances, but worse is when the woman in the art is drawn to look less empowered than any males in the art or drawn as a victim. That art is ok IN the right place, like the art showing a orc raid and both genders are shown as victims, but again variety.
DM here's your chocolate wolpertinger! :D
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All right, beyond that: As a guy who is into gender studies - all D_M said +1. Cersei. Brienne. Catelyn. Arya. Sansa, Female characters that make me feel for them without resorting to cheap threats and succumbing to the "independent woman syndrome"- essentially, A Song of Fire and Ice is sexist, but is sexism helps illustrate gender-roles. Now what _I_'d love to see is a distinctly female approach to fantasy POLITICS. We need to establish customs like marriages fist, I get that, but go for it! :D
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Speaking for my wife, a lack of healthy and caring relationships is a turn-off.
Consider the first few encounters of Rise of the Runelords. Sure, there are a mayor, sheriff, etc. who care about the townsfolk in a general way. But for real, caring relationships among family members or best friends we see only one example.
** spoiler omitted **
I am not advising being silly. No need to have a town map with a building description that reads: "Tannery: owned by Mr. Avorn and his wife, who love each other deeply and have been happily married for twenty years."
Rather, how about more quests to help people support friends and family, without a guaranteed tragic ending? (And not only the stereotypical rescue-and-bring-back plots. A gambler lost a lot of money and his spouse hires the PCs to prove the new gambling house is crooked. Diplomacy is needed to calm a feud that had nearly died out but is threatened to be rekindled. Searching is needed to find the herbs needed for an old favorite recipe for the town's aged and venerated retired priest's surprise birthday party. Two families are at war, holed up in fortified manor-estates, and the PCs are asked to deliver love letters across the battle lines. Etc.)
How about "set the scene" bits about caring relationships? For example, the PCs witness a sheriff and priest arguing in the marketplace about whether justice or mercy would most benefit a certain situation--and then the argument ends by the priest sighing, throwing up her arms, giving the sheriff a kiss, and saying, "Enough. We're getting nowhere. See you at dinner, honey."
Just have variety in art, concepts, characters, personalities etc for both genders giving equal attention to every area.
What visual fantasy troupe do you feel is over used in character design and imagery?
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Just have variety in art, concepts, characters, personalities etc for both genders giving equal attention to every area.What visual fantasy troupe do you feel is over used in character design and imagery?
Not sure i would say over done so much as some others are lacking. The burly female warrior is pretty rare, most female warriors are dressed in boob armor or with a lot of skin exposed which is fine. They also tend to be skinny and attractive. Showing the occasionally very large muscular woman would be nice from time to time, I know I see them from time to time. But I see far more of the first kind of warrior or the seductive rogue or seductive arcane caster. Nothing wrong with the last two, as many of my characters fall into the last two examples, just more variety.
Another thing is not enough seductive men, either rogues or bards etc. With the sleek swimmers build and pretty boy good looks. Also younger male wizards, ranging from geeking looking ones to athletic scholars, not all of them need to be older men.
Looking at the covers of your books on Paizo. I see other than monsters most of the men tend to be melee based, usually well armed and armored. The women are a bit better mixed on what class I think they are, but almost all of them are showing a great deal of skin.
Looking at the books of yours i own, the interior art is better balanced than the covers but they still lean that way. Of course it looks like most of the books of yours I have are either older 3.5 books like Obsidian Twilight Campaign and Master Performers(which of the books I own I thought was your best balanced book as far as art goes), or a lot of low art books like your 2 dozen series of books.
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Read Kingmaker, There are several quests in there that meet the parameters you outlined above.
Agreed. It seems ironic to me that Oglaf's tiny trading post has more heart than all of the larger and better-developed town of Sandpoint.
To answer your newest question, another great way to avoid alienating women gamers is to, when writing female characters and their story arcs, avoid falling into seductress/mother rut.
This, too. Paizo began to strike a nice medium between the genders, I feel--the women can be sexy, but they're never dominated, placed in a submissive position with the boot upon their neck.
That is important, and goes a long way towards striking a solid middle ground that goes a ways towards answering a variety of interests. "They can be sexy, but they'll eat your #($*(#$ lunch!!!" In other words, they're not doorstops.
As a nice bit of history...I pulled out my old PHB from 1995. Not a single female present. I'm willing to believe I overlooked her, though...
Also, second the hiring of female artists. Some video game companies have done the research to realize that yes, female artists and developers do bring in a different perspective.
At 47% of the gaming population, that's potentially a large market share. ...and they want it.
This is a good and constructive thread. Good luck LMP I hope you can put this advice into practice and do well from it.
Think about armor NOT fashion when designing art for women:
It ruins suspension of disbelief when the image you paint for me of a woman warrior in your game has little more than two small strips of plate or mail armor protecting her. My real life body armor is very unflattering, but I would rather be protected from bad guys than be showing bad guys my sexy side. The sexy outfits I own are for wearing to appropriate events or with appropriate people.
Practical outfits should be shown while adventuring (on men and women). When I go for a hike in the forest I don't wear a cocktail dress and heels, I wear boots and sturdy pants. Even if I had access to endure elements I still wouldn't wear something sexy in the wilderness. Something sexy is also something both expensive and fragile. It would be far too easy to rip that nice outfit while scaling a rock face or spelunking into a dark dungeon. And unless I have a magic cleaning service, one grass or blood stain is going to ruin that silk top.
Look at it this way, adventuring gear should be like military gear. You don't see Seal team 6 charging into danger wearing fancy tuxedos, skin revealing swimsuits, or foppishly fancy outfits.
I would add more here about treating women as real people but you already have a ton of great advice on that. Just ignore gender when designing NPCs and then role randomly for gender after their history, personality, and motivations are already in place.
Think about armor NOT fashion when designing art for women:
That is interesting that you say that. I know when it comes to males I am like put them in generic fantasy clothes, but when it comes to women especially recent I will send tons of inspirational fashion images that the artist can draw from for ideas.
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*snippy*
So, two example pictures of "less cheesecake, more action" (yes, I'm tooting my own horn here, but):
These are made for a friend of mine, but I personally enjoy playing fighter-y sort of female characters, who can wade into battle and do some serious damage. I am not averse of muscle-on-women, on account of having genes that tell me I need to have broad shoulders and a build like brick outhouse; when I look at art, I want to find pictures I can identify with, and 99% of the time cheesecake sorceresses aren't going to cut it.
(Yes, my gallery has couple of characters of cheesecake variety. This does not invalidate I'm saying, though, as I haven't found time to upload all the not-cheesecake art I've done.)
I want to see people in action, instead of posing for an invisible camera; this action must be reflected in text as well. If a female badass fighter mows through the horde of enemies, I want that action shown, right down to mighty thews and sprays of blood, just like people would tell the deeds of Conan. I do not want to be just told that "she killed 10 hobgoblins", if the male counterpart is getting his exploits shown in detail.
Does this help?
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Just have variety in art, concepts, characters, personalities etc for both genders giving equal attention to every area.What visual fantasy troupe do you feel is over used in character design and imagery?
I know you're asking Dark_Mistress (as well you should) but I feel like participating: look at the iconic witch in Pathfinder (Feiya). Pretty much that. Really skinny, unusual hair or eyes, lots of complexity in a costume that also makes it look impossible to move in including an almost Liefeldian number of straps and belts and pouches, clothing looks more like lingerie than gear, lots of focus on form over function (you can have both) .
In short: looks like a hot chick in a Halloween costume, not a competent adventurer.
Please let me note: I have no problems with hot chicks in Halloween costumes. I would like to promote their existence and proliferation.
But not as representatives of capable adventuring heroines. That's my personal taste. When I look at Feiya, I think, "Hey, cool Loligoth Halloween costume!" But I do not think, "Hey, I want to be like her when I'm pretending to save the world!"
Going back to what I and a lot of other people were saying earlier -- just go for variety. It's okay if you repeat past tropes even--tropes become tropes for a reason, because at some point, they've worked. Just don't use the same tropes over and over.
Think about armor NOT fashion when designing art for women:That is interesting that you say that. I know when it comes to males I am like put them in generic fantasy clothes, but when it comes to women especially recent I will send tons of inspirational fashion images that the artist can draw from for ideas.
Would you yourself volunteer as a target practice dummy wearing fully covering armor or a speedo swimsuit and lots of strappy fancy bits?
It is fine to have some artistic flair added to armor (both male and female). But the armor should still BE armor and not just swimwear that looks like armor only. I mean this IS a fantasy game. Adding some decorative trim or a colorful helmet plume is desirable. Just try to keep it realistic.
About the art topic, I'll say only that, despite being a male who of course likes pretty girls, I'm totally of the "keep ridiculous scantly clad out of my games" side, and tend to avoid products that objectivize women in that way.
For the other aspects, in the overall of gaming and women, I think there is one unpleasant thing.
In our world, gender equality is the future (I hope), sadly not the present, and certainly not the past. Past from which many, if not most, games and settings plunder their fundations, and then apply to them all the fantasy stuff.
I mean, the usual fantasy RPG is basically middle-age plus magic and magic creatures. And in middle-age (as in most, if not all, other ages) woman status was totally different from what many say (here and elsewhere) that they'd like to see in their game about the matter of women. A female knight, just to say, was such a rarity that I wonder how many could be named other than Jeanne D'Arc.
Of course, and luckily, games cannot be made "male-only, with a rare female exception" for a large number of reasons, but at the same time the world of the game is anyway, more often than not, male-inclined. I mean, you can have women as queens who rule above their own kings, as powerful heroes and characters of any type and all, but when you look at the basic level of society, women usually remain as the ones who stay at home, cleaning and cooking, while their husband goes to do his job and to the tavern after it. Prostitution in the streets is near-totally female. And other things.
I'm barely scratching the surface, there's much room for more words on the subject. But made simple, my point is just that the whole matter has controversial facets to be acknowledge before making any choice or even just any thought in how to run things in a given fantasy world. Given, of course, that the basest female objectification is to be avoided in any case.
Would you yourself volunteer as a target practice dummy wearing fully covering armor or a speedo swimsuit and lots of strappy fancy bits?
If my body looked like LL Cool J's, I would not wear clothing but since you could donate my body to science fiction, I think I will stay away from this as a whole.
It is fine to have some artistic flair added to armor (both male and female). But the armor should still BE armor and not just swimwear that looks like armor only. I mean this IS a fantasy game. Adding some decorative trim or a colorful helmet plume is desirable. Just try to keep it realistic.
Agreed.
At 47% of the gaming population, that's potentially a large market share. ...and they want it.I'm curious where you came up with the 47% figure. The only professional demographic report I've seen that measured women in gaming was done back in the summer of 1999 by WotC, which can be viewed over here, says the following:
Second, it is clear that female gamers constitute a significant portion of the hobby gaming audience; essentially a fifth of the total market. This represents a total population of several million active female hobby gamers. However, females, as a group, spend less than males on the hobby.If somebody has data that's more recent, I hope they show it here.
The number came from the Entertainment Software Association, and was recorded in a NY Times Article on August 1, 2012. I remember it raising my eyebrows too, but then...it's not too surprising, is it?
Not surprising that that might be more difficult to realize? We're used to a certain perception. And, women themselves may not be helping. For instance, when things are uncomfortable, for any human being, the tendency is often to avoid it. But, women like to game, too. So, women form women-only groups, hide under a male persona, or just don't speak up. It's not uncommon at all.
1999 is also just 4 years away from the PHB that had no female heroes...or at least, so few that I missed them thumbing through the book!
As for pen-and-paper gaming, I would not be surprised to see higher numbers than in 1999.
I know it's bad form to double-reply, but. ...I had a thought which might help with this.
-> Of all game types, women seem to favor RPGs (according to different articles I'd read...I'd have to look them up, as this is off the top of my head)
This has had some consequences in my own life: whichever local gaming group we put together, the strongest votes for RPGs have tended to be the women.
In online RPGs which I've gamed in, so long as the environment seems to be decent, there's a healthy mixture of genders, with a possible greater number of women (I'm excluding the guys-as-girls, here).
Maybe...just maybe? It's possible that RPGs are actually a strong potential market to the female gender, instead of the opposite, as has been long-assumed.
We may just be beginning to see this, as women are just now able to be more vocal--via forums, online, and so forth, and that there are numbers enough to have an impact.
A fifth of the population in a less-heavy internet era would not have the impact or message that 47% would in a post one.
Either way, the market is changing.
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May I just, as a male, point out the double standard of female players who complain about how females look 'too much like strippers', who then also have shelves full of romance novels where the covers are PG-17 to Hard R rated, usually containing one or more Fabio's or Fabio clones, and women who are dressed in next to nothing, look like strippers or prostitutes, and are generally being portrayed as helpless victims?
Sorry, return to the discussion now that pet peeve has been raised.
May I suggest a book to read if you're interested in a good bit of insight into female gamers? It's called Confessions of a part-time sorceress. It was published by an Intern at WoTC and details how she was introduced to gaming when she got a job there, and how she grew to like the game. It has a lot of insight into what female players are looking for, or at least, it gives some insight into what that one female gamer was looking at and what she liked and didn't like. My wife read it as part of getting into gaming, and loved it. She bought 3-4 copies and gave away all but one.
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Sorry, return to the discussion now that pet peeve has been raised.
1) False equivalency is false: romance novels are read for getting your jollies off, whereas RPGs are USUALLY for other kinds of kicks, of a sort where you don't roll the small pink d20, if you know what I mean.
2) I do not think that romance novel covers (nor romance novels themselves) should be held as a standard we should aspire to, especially when we want to woo for female gamers to join the hobby; to reach there to complain about them is missing the forest for the trees; to look behind at them is like bemoaning that we should go there instead of going forward to more inclusive, more interesting stuff.
3) I can speak for myself when I say that I have zero romance novels in my personal library, and I find a lot of them extremely distasteful, having read plenty of them in my youth (sometimes, especially way back in Stupid Era -- aka No Mobile Internet or Even Internet -- you got stuck in a situation where the only options are either be bored to tears, or try to read something, and sadly that something wasn't always within my choice).
I understand that others may like them (such as my grandmother, whose books I occasionally read out of boredom avoidance), but a whole lot of that cheap stuff resorts to extremely old-fashioned ideas of womanhood (and in some cases, ethnicity and cultures), which just gives me the creeps.
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I have to agree with Skiriki on all three points.
mdt?! really? I might post more when my thoughts are better collected. Right now I am just stunned he just made a connection between adolescent fantasy and RPGs... THOSE situations are NOT the ones we want to play out at a table of our friends. To use that connection is to suggest that is what mdt wants?
Hey, there. @Alzrius, thanks for the time and attention to it. I felt comfortable quoting it because there's such crossover.
I think we'll see more marketing questions like the ones above as the industry itself shifts to adjust to this change. We've developed since the 90s, and I think in a good way.
I suspect we'll get more numbers as marketing departments continue to crunch and adapt. I'm excited about these, too. If you ever do an analysis on some of these, drop me a line; I'd love to see it.
@Mdt: I usually enjoy your posts. You've always had some great things to say. This is about what increases a product's marketability to women, though.
I'm sorry for my own role in getting off-track. Let's bring it back on track before it goes into a he said, she said argument? As we move forward, one of the things we need to do is get past these arguments, and realize that the other "side" is trying to communicate.
And then see what we can take from that conversation.
Well lets get people's opinion on this image: this is our newest iconic that we created for NeoExodus named Amne Isa Zara. She is a Gevet (Tiefling) Cleric.
That is not to suggest what I want to play out at the table. That is to suggest that it is a double standard to get upset at males for liking risque female forms, but to find it perfectly acceptable to like male risque forms if you're female.
Primarily, this came about as a pet peeve in college, where a rather obnoxiously feminist fellow student preached day and night about mens magazines, and how they were demeaning to women. This same woman had no issues with the covers of her trashy romance novels (and she actually explicitly liked the 'bodice ripper' sub-genre). She saw it as completely ok for her to ogle males of certain types, and read trashy novels that demeaned both men and women, because she was a woman. But men were pigs for picking up a mens magazine. The mind boggles.
From that day on, I've noticed who complains about any genre where the women are 'typically' depicted (not my word, the word I borrow from others, usually the complainers) as wearing less than a nun habit. Then I ask these complainers if they read romance novels. Right now, I'm running about 85% yes, they do. Only about 50% admit to it, but the other 35% turn red and stammer out a denial, so I put those down as yes.
So if you don't have trashy romance novels on your shelf, you can complain all you want about whatever depictions you want of females, and more power to you.
If you instead have a shelf full of such rubbish, you've got no high-horse to stand on and complain about males being pigs for liking artwork of attractive females. And yes, it is a double standard if you do. What you're really saying is, it's perfectly fine to have low standards over here, where I like low standards, but you have to have high standards over here, where I want high standards. If you don't want to play trashy romance at the RPG table, that's great and fine. I don't run games with trashy romance in them myself. Nor do I run games with chainmail bikini's (although evil drow matriarch's do tend to dress like dominatrix's, but that's a hold over from the way the race has always been, so I don't feel guilty about it), lots of titillating descriptions of brothels, or with strippers on poles in the local bars. Does that stuff exist in the game world? Yeah, do I draw attention to it? No. If someone says their character (male or female) goes out looking for a decent brothel, then I have them do a gather information check, then a charisma check, and roll a dice to see how good a time they had. Sometimes in certain cities inn servers offer extra services, because that's part of the trope. I don't go into details, I just role a die and tell the player their character had a good/bad time. Maybe they woke up with their gold gone. Either way, I run a mature (as in Maturity, not as in XXX) game. So if the accusation of a double standard hit a little close to home, and you had to strike back by claiming I run some sort of adolescent smut shop game, you're not only wrong, you're seriously in denial.
Well lets get people's opinion on this image: this is our newest iconic that we created for NeoExodus named Amne Isa Zara. She is a Gevet (Tiefling) Cleric.
Can't speak from a 'what would a woman want' but, from a critical perspective, she doesn't look like a cleric. What I mean by that is, a cleric is not an adept, and is expected to be armored. She looks more like a Zen Archer monk, to be completely honest. From a stylistic perspective, the artwork looks good, just not what it's advertised as. If you got rid of the bow, she'd be fine as a cleric/priestess. But with the bow out and strung and an arrow knocked, she's in a combat situation, which really should bring armor on as well. And no, I didn't say cheesecake armor. :)
@Mdt: I usually enjoy your posts. You've always had some great things to say. This is about what increases a product's marketability to women, though.I'm sorry for my own role in getting off-track. Let's bring it back on track before it goes into a he said, she said argument? As we move forward, one of the things we need to do is get past these arguments, and realize that the other "side" is trying to communicate.
And then see what we can take from that conversation.
Sure, I can drop it (read this after I posted up above). It just really is a pet peeve of mine, and I do consider it a double standard. I guess I've just had to deal with too many people (both male and female) who had this double standard in my life. The funny thing is, I usually am one of the first people to complain about cheesecake armor in RPG books. But I complain about it because it's stupid armor, not because I think it's some big sexist plot. :)
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Well lets get people's opinion on this image: this is our newest iconic that we created for NeoExodus named Amne Isa Zara. She is a Gevet (Tiefling) Cleric.
Nice artwork, however the black thing on her chest (armor?) looks like a sling to carry an infant in.
Edit: I'm reliably informed by my wife that it is probably an archery chest-guard that would normally be worn under clothing.
Overall, I think that this is good image to use as a visual description of a class/race. The clothing isn't suitable for adventuring in a lot of situations, but if you think of it as a commissioned portrait then it is fitting.
Well lets get people's opinion on this image: this is our newest iconic that we created for NeoExodus named Amne Isa Zara. She is a Gevet (Tiefling) Cleric.Nice artwork, however the black thing on her chest (armor?) looks like a sling to carry an infant in.
Edit: I'm reliably informed by my wife that it is probably an archery chest-guard that would normally be worn under clothing.
Overall, I think that this is good image to use as a visual description of a class/race. The clothing isn't suitable for adventuring in a lot of situations, but if you think of it as a commissioned portrait then it is fitting.
...how many copies of this book can I get? :D
That is my response!!!
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I know you're asking Dark_Mistress (as well you should) but I feel like participating: look at the iconic witch in Pathfinder (Feiya). Pretty much that. Really skinny, unusual hair or eyes, lots of complexity in a costume that also makes it look impossible to move in including an almost Liefeldian number of straps and belts and pouches, clothing looks more like lingerie than gear, lots of focus on form over function (you can have both) .
In short: looks like a hot chick in a Halloween costume, not a competent adventurer.
Please let me note: I have no problems with hot chicks in Halloween costumes. I would like to promote their existence and proliferation.
But not as representatives of capable adventuring heroines. That's my personal taste. When I look at Feiya, I think, "Hey, cool Loligoth Halloween costume!" But I do not think, "Hey, I want to be like her when I'm pretending to save the world!"
Indeed, Feiya not only fails the "practical outfit to wear when adventuring" criteria but even the "practical outfit to wear for a day at the Con" criteria.
Some comfortable, practical, cosplay-friendly visuals would be nice.
Feiya has no pocket big enough to keep a Con day lunch and water bottle. And she is supposed to be exploring and adventuring like that? Perhaps Witches live on Pocky and hers are stored in that Efficient Quiver at her hip?
Sure, I can drop it (read this after I posted up above). It just really is a pet peeve of mine, and I do consider it a double standard. I guess I've just had to deal with too many people (both male and female) who had this double standard in my life. The funny thing is, I usually am one of the first people to complain about cheesecake armor in RPG books. But I complain about it because it's stupid armor, not because I think it's some big sexist plot. :)
@Mdt: I usually enjoy your posts. You've always had some great things to say. This is about what increases a product's marketability to women, though.I'm sorry for my own role in getting off-track. Let's bring it back on track before it goes into a he said, she said argument? As we move forward, one of the things we need to do is get past these arguments, and realize that the other "side" is trying to communicate.
And then see what we can take from that conversation.
@mdt: That is awesome of you. I'm really glad to see this book, and will be purchasing a copy of my own. I intend to share it with friends, too, and let them know about it.
The arguments you bring up are some of what I think is an initial basis for a conversation that needs to happen, probably a few times. We need to let it wear down, though, as it will over time, and move past so that the sharp edges are discussed less often as fact (which they're not). The truth always lies somewhere towards the middle. And hopefully, so does the solution.
It's this way we'll get where we truly want to be, which is an area we'll all more likely agree on than not, though it might not seem that way at the moment. :)
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What I mean by that is, a cleric is not an adept, and is expected to be armored. She looks more like a Zen Archer monk, to be completely honest. From a stylistic perspective, the artwork looks good, just not what it's advertised as. If you got rid of the bow, she'd be fine as a cleric/priestess.
My elven cloistered cleric would have a word with you. ;)
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I will add that I don't mind impractical outfits and armor, as long as that is not all there is or even the majority. The reason being is this is fantasy not real life. Yes in real life if I was going into combat I would want the most armor I could wear and still function. In fantasy with magic, if I had a choice between a leather corset or full plate and both protected me the same, well i wouldn't wear the full plate. That's a big reason I like variety.
As for Feiya... yeah the outfit is more of a fashion statement and wouldn't really be practical for anything else. But I actually like it a lot and don't mind it for the same reason I listed on not minding silly armor, as long as their is variety and equal examples of all kinds. I know I am harping a bit on this equal variety but I feel strongly about it, I think going to far in either direction is a bad thing. Going to far towards cheese cake is silly and can turn people off, to far into realistic and things start to get stale and boring. You can only draw full plate to look so many ways and still be practical.
As for the new sample art, she looks ok. I don't mind the cleavage, as long as there would be some art in the book where we don't see the woman's cleavage. I don't judge art in the context we are talking in isolation. I think it needs to be judge in context with what the written words and books is about and what the rest of the artwork looks like.
May I just, as a male, point out the double standard of female players who complain about how females look 'too much like strippers', who then also have shelves full of romance novels where the covers are PG-17 to Hard R rated, usually containing one or more Fabio's or Fabio clones, and women who are dressed in next to nothing, look like strippers or prostitutes, and are generally being portrayed as helpless victims?
In all the female gamers personal libraries I have seen (about ten) I have never seen any romance novels, ever. I have seen more romance novels in male gamer book collections in fact (The Legend Of The Ice Making, *cough* Ice People Saga).
May I suggest a book to read if you're interested in a good bit of insight into female gamers? It's called Confessions of a part-time sorceress. It was published by an Intern at WoTC and details how she was introduced to gaming when she got a job there, and how she grew to like the game. It has a lot of insight into what female players are looking for, or at least, it gives some insight into what that one female gamer was looking at and what she liked and didn't like. My wife read it as part of getting into gaming, and loved it. She bought 3-4 copies and gave away all but one.
I didn't read it, however I recall some females who were very disappointed by that book. Quite possible it was even here on Paizo messageboard where I did read negative opinion posted about Confessions.
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May I just, as a male, point out the double standard of female players who complain about how females look 'too much like strippers', who then also have shelves full of romance novels where the covers are PG-17 to Hard R rated, usually containing one or more Fabio's or Fabio clones, and women who are dressed in next to nothing, look like strippers or prostitutes, and are generally being portrayed as helpless victims?In all the female gamers personal libraries I have seen (about ten) I have never seen any romance novels, ever. I have seen more romance novels in male gamer book collections in fact (The Legend Of The Ice Making, *cough* Ice People Saga).
May I suggest a book to read if you're interested in a good bit of insight into female gamers? It's called Confessions of a part-time sorceress. It was published by an Intern at WoTC and details how she was introduced to gaming when she got a job there, and how she grew to like the game. It has a lot of insight into what female players are looking for, or at least, it gives some insight into what that one female gamer was looking at and what she liked and didn't like. My wife read it as part of getting into gaming, and loved it. She bought 3-4 copies and gave away all but one.I didn't read it, however I recall some females who were very disappointed by that book. Quite possible it was even here on Paizo messageboard where I did read negative opinion posted about Confessions.
Not quoting you to point at you, just cause you are the last post as I type this. This discussion right here is why I preach variety. Women are... wait for it.... different. We all like different things. I know some women that love 50 Shades of Grey. I personally find it a stupid book. I know women that love cheesecake art and it makes them want to play that character. i know women who hate and despise cheesecake art and it annoys them to see it. I know some women liked the Confessions book and some who thought it was stupid. The person i know with the largest porn collection I have ever seen is a woman. I know women that loved Twilight and some that hated it, I know some that loved Big Trouble in Little China and some that thought it was stupid.
My point is we are varied and while there are stereotypes just like with men. The majority of us don't fit into nice little packages. So there is no right or wrong answer in the discussion, because it will be a totally different answer from woman to woman. But if you have variety you will appeal to everyone some of the time.
What I mean by that is, a cleric is not an adept, and is expected to be armored. She looks more like a Zen Archer monk, to be completely honest. From a stylistic perspective, the artwork looks good, just not what it's advertised as. If you got rid of the bow, she'd be fine as a cleric/priestess.My elven cloistered cleric would have a word with you. ;)
A) Your elven cloistered cleric has no armor proficiency, and is therefore not expected to wear armor (he's also not expected to wield a bow).
B) Cloistered Clerics are 3.5, not PF, we're talking PF. :)
As for Feiya... yeah the outfit is more of a fashion statement and wouldn't really be practical for anything else. But I actually like it a lot and don't mind it for the same reason I listed on not minding silly armor, as long as their is variety and equal examples of all kinds. I know I am harping a bit on this equal variety but I feel strongly about it, I think going to far in either direction is a bad thing. Going to far towards cheese cake is silly and can turn people off, to far into realistic and things start to get stale and boring. You can only draw full plate to look so many ways and still be practical.
Note that this is the Witch class, and as such, doesn't wear armor, so she can pretty much wear anything she wants. As for being impractical, you've hit the nail on the head. It's a fashion statement. The picture is most likely what she wears around town or at formal functions. Even so, if she wants to wear something impractical out and about, it's no different from everyday women who do so. For example, I've know at least two women who wear 5 inch heels and have a job where they are on their feet all day (one working in women's clothing stores, one in a book store). I also know a woman (my cousin) who used to spend 3 hours every morning getting her hair teased just right, sprayed down, and then wore an outfit that I swear would have been right at home on the Sunset Strip. Then she went to work in a liquor store (not high heels though, she preferred knee high platform boots). To be fair, I knew a guy in college that spent an hour getting his hair just right every morning, and wore an ascot every day (we used to call him Freddy behind his back). :) Men can be just as vain as women, it's just usually that male 'high fasion' is easier to deal with than what ladies put up with.
Our iconic sorceress wears an outfit that offers no protection at all, but again, she's not an armored class, so that's not a big deal. Yeah, it's mostly cheesecake, but nothing more 'risque' than you can see at the mall (at least, the malls in New Orleans).
Personally, my favorite female iconic is the Paladin. She's got a full plate set that looks good enough to be real. Second place would be the Inquisitor. Yeah, she's sporting cleavage, but she's also wearing leather armor, and a long duster, and she's got all sorts of equipment that looks realistic for a bounty hunter. Plus she's not human or elf and that's a huge plus.
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A) Your elven cloistered cleric has no armor proficiency, and is therefore not expected to wear armor (he's also not expected to wield a bow).
B) Cloistered Clerics are 3.5, not PF, we're talking PF. :)
Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.
Cloistered clerics are proficient with light armor and with the following weapons: club, heavy mace, light mace, quarterstaff, and sling. They are not proficient with shields.
:)
As for being impractical, you've hit the nail on the head. It's a fashion statement. The picture is most likely what she wears around town or at formal functions. Even so, if she wants to wear something impractical out and about, it's no different from everyday women who do so.
Actually, neither my wife nor I minded the illustration inside the APG for just this reason. It looks like a "town witch" shopkeeper trying to dress for the role.
But on the back cover, and in other Paizo publications, she is indeed adventuring in that getup!
As for being impractical, you've hit the nail on the head. It's a fashion statement. The picture is most likely what she wears around town or at formal functions. Even so, if she wants to wear something impractical out and about, it's no different from everyday women who do so.Actually, neither my wife nor I minded the illustration inside the APG for just this reason. It looks like a "town witch" shopkeeper trying to dress for the role.
But on the back cover, and in other Paizo publications, she is indeed adventuring in that getup!
Yes, but that's more to do with cost of artwork, and trade dress. They have to be careful to make the iconics look the same all the time, to keep trade dress up. If they didn't, they could dilute their own trade dress and lose the ability to protect it if someone comes along and tries to steal it. Same reason why they use the same look and feel for all the books, the same fonts, etc.
A) Your elven cloistered cleric has no armor proficiency, and is therefore not expected to wear armor (he's also not expected to wield a bow).
B) Cloistered Clerics are 3.5, not PF, we're talking PF. :)
Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.Cloistered clerics are proficient with light armor and with the following weapons: club, heavy mace, light mace, quarterstaff, and sling. They are not proficient with shields.:)
So, if you're not wearing light armor, then you're not being a safe and smart adventurer. :)
Yes, but that's more to do with cost of artwork, and trade dress. They have to be careful to make the iconics look the same all the time, to keep trade dress up. If they didn't, they could dilute their own trade dress and lose the ability to protect it if someone comes along and tries to steal it. Same reason why they use the same look and feel for all the books, the same fonts, etc.
I suppose. But I still have last December's Paizo "happy holiday" card (with the iconics wearing sweaters) on my mantle. It's so great to see them wearing something different than usual.
Ever read Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCafcrey, or Terry Pratchett? Those are my wife's favorite authors. Their heroes and heroines often have to deal with outfits, social customs about dress, how to carry all their gear while being presentable in the city, etc. I'm sure my wife would better relate to a published adventure module if it gave reason for her PC to own more than one pair of shoes, and allowed benefiting from more than one magical necklace at the same time.
Actually,
Yes, I've read all three, and all three are among my favorite authors. Things like more than one pair of shoes are taken care of as part of outfits. My wife rolls her eyes when people start talking about shopping in a game. She'd rather cast spells or make her improved familiar pounce the bad guy. :) But yes, each game should be catered to the players and what they find interesting. So if your wife finds shopping in game to be interesting, she should get that during trips to town. And the GM should let her define what her outfits look like, and even give some rewards (rp or xp) for all the work she's putting into it. But I don't think an AP should enforce you to figure out how many pairs of shoes you have or what color or style they are. That's for individual creativeness. Might as well dictate what classes everyone plays and how many players you can have.
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That is not to suggest what I want to play out at the table. That is to suggest that it is a double standard to get upset at males for liking risque female forms, but to find it perfectly acceptable to like male risque forms if you're female.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything in this thread where anyone bashed males for liking risque female forms.
Who likes risque female forms? Okay, I'm a female, in fairness, but I don't think that gives me a "pass," per se. I'd be a hypocrite for getting upset at someone else for liking the same thing I do. All I ever asked for was moderation and diversity, and that's the theme of most of the posts I've seen here as well.
I am truly sorry you've got baggage due to a really bad experience in college, and thank you very much for agreeing to drop it. Indeed, please forgive me for bringing it up after you in fact agreed to drop it, but I felt the need to please ask you that in future to reconsider throwing your baggage from college all over a conversation that wasn't even talking about the thing that bothers you to begin with.
And while I'm posting about things that bother *me*... all you dudes saying "my wife this and my wife that" ... could you please ask your wives to take a minute to post themselves? I'd love to hear their perspectives from their own mouths (or keyboards, as the case may be).