
Menelmacar |
Hey guys,
I just got into a heated discussion about Knowledge to identify the properties of a monster (and to an extent of a person). The main question is, am I, by RAW, able to deduce the class (or certain class abilities) via Knowledge.
In my oppinion that would be kinda strange, considering you could just stand in the middle of a city and look at people to determine their classes, without them carrying any weapons, component pouches or stuff like that. On the other hand, Knowledge (Local) is used to identify Humanoids.
The question arised because of the Fighter's Archetype Lore Warden. By RAW you could use a Knowledge (Local) check to 'identify' a person to get a +2 bonus to attack and damage if I recall correctly. As soon as you see that person fighting, I'm okay with that, you can deduce certain weaknesses in their movement, find weak points in the defense. But I could also do that a round before combat even begins. That seems strange to me. (but wouldn't be a RAW issue.. just an imagination issue)
But what information would you get if you beat the DC for identifying a human by more than.. let's say 20 (which isn't that hard considering they are very common). Would you just get the information 'Well they drown if you bind a stone to their feet and throw them into the river" or would you actually get information about their class abilites?
On a related note: The rules for Knowledge for identifying a monster is:
"In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR."
Consider this: You got 2 Goblins next to each other. The first is a generic goblin, CR 1/3. The second is a goblin with 10 levels of fighter, making him a CR 9.
By RAW I'd say that means with a rolled 11 my result would be: "Monster No. 1 is a goblin! But I have absolutely no idea what monster No. 2 is."
Of course that would be absolute nonsense. But I think by RAW it would be right.
What are your thoughts on that?

BltzKrg242 |

Knowledges would help you determine ethnicity and potentially region of issue (assuming that the person wears regional attire) but not likely class.
Certain items would point to certain classes but specifics would not be indicated.
Obviously the heavier the armor, the more likely that the person is a martial class unless holy symbols and so on point to Cleric or inquisitor (but could also be a paladin)
The pointier and taller the hat, the more likely you are looking at a mage.
More camouflaged and animals surrounding, and you've got yourself a Ranger or a druid. (look for double weapons or a sickle to narrow it down)Also if a female NPC doesn't shave her legs EVER.. think druid.
Knowledges let you know racial type and weaknesses, special attacks that the standard race has and resistances... Individuals within that race could be much more or much less.
The only thing that MIGHT tell you exactly what a specific member of a race does are Know: Nobility (you've heard tales of Sir Hector) or Know:Local (rumors about Madkin the wizard)
but up to the GM as always...

VRMH |

You know the racial properties of a Human with a simple roll, as they're the same for Bob the Commoner and the Black Knight you're facing. But for the specific idiosyncrasies of mr. Knight, you'll need to roll high. Very high. Because he's unique.
Class properties would fall somewhere in between. Knowing that people in heavy armour usually have a high Fortitude save, is neither a simple, applies-to-all-humans roll, nor specific to a unique individual.

BltzKrg242 |

For the second part of you post:
You'd determine that both are goblins. Class levels wouldn't be readily noticeable from the knowledge check but the way the higher level one carries himself and the gear he's wearing would indicate to anyone with a Perception of 1 or higher that he's more of a threat.

Menelmacar |
For the second part of you post:
You'd determine that both are goblins. Class levels wouldn't be readily noticeable from the knowledge check but the way the higher level one carries himself and the gear he's wearing would indicate to anyone with a Perception of 1 or higher that he's more of a threat.
Of course that's logical. But RAW that seems wrong. It never says you only take the base DC of the race. It tells you to take the monster's DC, that's what's bothering me.

Gauss |

Alright, nothing in the knowledge checks states that you can identify class.
My take on it:
A knowledge (local) check will tell you it is an orc, tell you the orc can see in the dark. But, it may also give you social elements such as: they are usually evil, in certain regions they tend towards lawlessness and many of them get really strong when they get really angry (RP description of barbarian).
I can see the same being applied to other races which have racial class stereotypes. But, that does not mean you can use a knowledge check to identify a person's class without overt signs.
BTW, telling someone is dangerous can be done irl just by how they carry themselves. A person does not need to see someone fight to know they are dangerous. However, that is more of a sense motive thing.
If my players see an NPC in action I will start giving indicators as to the experience level of that NPC. Example: The guy sneaking in the corner is clumsy at it. He is trying to move stealthy but he seems to be far behind your abilities to do so (and it's not due to his armor).
- Gauss

Menelmacar |
But in my oppinion, by logic, that would be more of an Wisdom Check.
For me it's like this when I see a monster like perhaps an Imp. An Imp has very distuingishable optical properties. I always understood Knowledge as... Knowledge you got before. So I see an Imp, make my check and remember reading in some distant library something about small creatues with wings and stuff like that being able to become invisible whenever they want. Maybe in the book there even was a drawing of an Imp.
Back to Knowledge(Local) and humanoids, especially humans. Human are just so individual, every one of them, that the only thing I should be able to get by a Knowledge check would be "That's a human. If they get into full body contact with water for more than 3 minutes they are most likely dead.". That is Knowledge.
Deducing his combat skills by watching him move in my opponion is more of a Perception thing.
But that leads to another question. Do characters know about 'classes'? Does someone who sees a Rogue backstab his friend know that he most likely is a good trap spotter as well. Or that a girl with a fox on her shoulder who just made my comrade sleep in the middle of day with just a blink of her eye is able to curse me in so many other ways (and what curses that are)?
Can a character who has just witnessed one of the situations above make a Knowledge check and get additional information about the abilities or are classes just an arbitrary construct made for rule purposes only?

Fredrik |

BltzKrg242 wrote:Of course that's logical. But RAW that seems wrong. It never says you only take the base DC of the race. It tells you to take the monster's DC, that's what's bothering me.For the second part of you post:
You'd determine that both are goblins. Class levels wouldn't be readily noticeable from the knowledge check but the way the higher level one carries himself and the gear he's wearing would indicate to anyone with a Perception of 1 or higher that he's more of a threat.
The key word there is "monster" instead of "creature". It's talking about identifying properties of the race, not the individual.

Gauss |

Menelmacar:
Perception is noticing the person is there or noticing tiny details about that person's attire. Deduction is reasoning. However, since there is no knowledge skill that covers combat abilities (there should be) I suggested sense motive to determine how dangerous a person is. It is a reasonable compromise.
- Gauss

Cult of Vorg |

I believe that Know Your Enemy is based on the creature, not the specific individual, so class levels should be ignored. It means they get an easy check for combat perks vs common races, which fluffs out IMO as a list of weak points (3rd vertebrae, solar plexus, etc).
+1 to Sense Motive or Perception to figure out class/levels, can see arguments for either or both but not neither.