Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative, however I would like to establish what exactly you define as power gaming.
If you could would you please take a look at the following character and respond with how it would be viewed at your table.
The character is created with a 15 point buy and has approximately 190 gp remaining to buy additional gear.
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks for the concrete example, as it reminds me of one more thing:
- Absolutely, positively, disallow ALL traits.I don't understand what Paizo was thinking. The added feats tend to be reasonable. I dislike the Eastern weapons, but, as someone else noted, you are perfectly within your rights to declare them Exotic and make someone take a feat to use them.
But I was looking at that barbarian build and thinking, "Fine, fine. No problem..." and got to his equipment and was thinking, "What the heck?!?!? 4th-level characters in my campaigns don't have stuff nearly this good!"
And of course it was yet another odious trait. Things like, "Cast fire spells at an additional level" (that's an extra die of damage, which is a game-changer at low levels), "Have an extra 1000 gold" (another game-changer). I've never met a trait I liked, and they don't "add flavor" to a character, they let people choose greater-than-feats power-ups for their characters that make 1st-level characters fight like 3rd-level characters. It's a BIG difference, and changes the entire flavor of the game. The first few fights are supposed to be, "Oh gosh I hope I don't get killed" affairs that bond the party. If they're a walk in the park, it changes the entire tone of the group.
Did I mention I don't like traits?
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Carried around a small potted plant, would start every combat by throwing it towards the enemy, then cast entangle to root everything, then throw alchemist's fire in order to catch the plants on fire and burn everything to the ground.That's not powergaming. That's playing smart.
Or waiting for a smart GM to entangle him and his party with his own plant...
Seriously, dude is walking around with a potted plant, which would require sunlight and presumably temparate conditions to keep it alive at minimum, so how is he handling that. And how is he casting something with somatic components if he has a weapon in his other hand?
And then of course, the fact everyone thinks he is crazy because he walks around with a potted plant.
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Carried around a small potted plant, would start every combat by throwing it towards the enemy, then cast entangle to root everything, then throw alchemist's fire in order to catch the plants on fire and burn everything to the ground.That's not powergaming. That's playing smart.
Or waiting for a smart GM to entangle him and his party with his own plant...
Seriously, dude is walking around with a potted plant, which would require sunlight and presumably temparate conditions to keep it alive at minimum, so how is he handling that. And how is he casting something with somatic components if he has a weapon in his other hand?
And then of course, the fact everyone thinks he is crazy because he walks around with a potted plant.
LOL -- reminds me of the classic 'tell':
Q: How do you recognize a power gamer?
A: The GM asks him what he has in his hands right at the moment, and he lists 6 items...
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The potted plant is silly because Entangle doesn't magically increase the amount of vegetation, so the only way for a potted plant to entangle someone is for it to be A REALLY REALLY REALLY BIG PLANT. Probably too big to throw (far enough!), certainly likely to cause encumbrance. The pot, if broken, would be too big to be affected with Mending. And definitely too big to bring multiples.
...After reading the spell Entangle I have to say that the spell doesn't work that way and is partially DM enabling.
Well, you'd be incorrect. It does work like that.
There are a lot of things that don't, like your other examples. But the potted plant entangle totally works. This is not DM enabling, for once it is actually people doing it right, despite the fact the player has found a creative way around the limitations of the spell.
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"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
At best, his little pot creates one 5 feet square of it. He needs some Growth spell to make the vegetation big, and those are 2nd or 3rd level spells. This is DM enabling.
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...After reading the spell Entangle I have to say that the spell doesn't work that way and is partially DM enabling.Well, you'd be incorrect. It does work like that.
There are a lot of things that don't, like your other examples. But the potted plant entangle totally works. This is not DM enabling, for once it is actually people doing it right, despite the fact the player has found a creative way around the limitations of the spell.
The spell itself doesn't say the plant grows in any way...it simply says plants in that area entangle the enemy. So unless this guy is carrying around a pretty decent sized tree...not technically going to work.
And if you are reading it as it needs to just be a plant to make 40 ft of plants to spring up and entangle everyone well then you hit the issue of the plant itself only being able to be thrown 10 ft., so every creature including your party and yourself would be stuck inside the area of effect.
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some examples of this guys power gaming: Carried around a small potted plant, would start every combat by throwing it towards the enemy, then cast entangle to root everything,
How can one pot-plant root everything? One small pot-plant couldn't root even a single small character. Entangle makes use of the existing vegetation, it does not grow said vegetation. If you cast it on an area with some vegetation in some areas and not others, it works only on the areas where there is vegetation.
If you're letting him get away with this level of stunt, no wonder he's a problem.
then throw alchemist's fire in order to catch the plants on fire and burn everything to the ground.
That kind of thing will take time, at best it would spread from one square to the next each round, plenty of time to get free.
his stats are usually 18-20 in the primary stat of his class, 16-17 in whatever secondary he has, and 6-8 in everything else.
So he gives himself glaring weaknesses? Exploit them to the max. Let me guess, he comes up with brilliant strategies like that above with an intelligence of 6, right?
His feats/traits/flaws he would choose would be the best min/max he could do for it, as well as min/max his skill choices. One game he built a silver tongued bard that at level 2 had something like a +20 to diplomacy and bluff specifically so he could trick or coerce NPCs into somehow killing themselves.
Sounds like the usual munchkin, who 'forgets' the limits on Diplomacy. It can make people friendly to you, convincing people to kill themselves has about a -50 penalty for suggesting something so dumb.
He mainly powergames in the "do everything to ruin how the encounters play out" way. He's the kind of player that would use a Locate City bomb because it is legal and breaks the game.
So he spoils the game. Don't invite him.
I'm honestly thinking of just not inviting him because when i had talked about my interest in running Skull and Shackles he immediately went on a long rant about how it is by far the "worst possible adventure path ever" mainly because of the Ship to Ship combat discussed in the player's guide.
Perfect excuse.
And to running an adventure path he hasn't read, I would have to homebrew everything from scratch since he reads every single adventure path from any system so he can figure out the optimum character for it. If anyone here has seen Dorkness Rising, the guy who plays the monk personifies this particular gamer. He plays to win, not for the story of the campaign.
And after the win, the retirement. He need no longer play, problem solved.
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But I was looking at that barbarian build and thinking, "Fine, fine. No problem..." and got to his equipment and was thinking, "What the heck?!?!? 4th-level characters in my campaigns don't have stuff nearly this good!"
There is a lot of strange stuff on this thread.
4th level characters in your campaigns don't have 900 gp worth of equipment? At what level could a martial character in your campaign reasonably expect to get hold of a masterwork weapon and a masterwork set of armour then?
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But I was looking at that barbarian build and thinking, "Fine, fine. No problem..." and got to his equipment and was thinking, "What the heck?!?!? 4th-level characters in my campaigns don't have stuff nearly this good!"There is a lot of strange stuff on this thread.
4th level characters in your campaigns don't have 900 gp worth of equipment? At what level could a martial character in your campaign reasonably expect to get hold of a masterwork weapon and a masterwork set of armour then?
A masterwork breastplate? Cheap and common, and probably by 2nd level.
A masterwork nodachi? They would have to custom-order it from a major trading city, and have to explain to me how their characters even knew what it was.
We're running through RotRL right now, the characters just hit 3rd level, and their entire haul is a masterwork longbow and a +1 longsword; the paladin is happy to have some -1 ceremonial plate. Someone above said, "This is roleplaying, not a video game," so my goblins and goblin dogs aren't carrying around bags of gold and jewels while out raiding. The one rich guy they killed and looted was a relative of an NPC, and the paladin insisted on giving the money they recovered to the relative.
They finally did their first dungeon crawl and have 3000 g.p. worth of credit at the weapons store, but they're planning on special-ordering a +1 scimitar for the paladin from Magnimar; that'll take a few days to arrive.
I simply insist that not every podunk town in the middle of nowhere carries every masterwork and/or magic item in any of the books. You want a good item? You have a find a place that can be reasonably expected to sell it...
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Oh and BTW if this is a Druid I'd take away their druid abilities...
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
Abusing that poor plant and killing it intentionally IMO is not reverent.
And if he is a Ranger...well then he is stupid because by the time he can cast this spell its better to just use Gravity Bow on yourself and do some damage...Toss Plant (standard on turn 1), Entangle (standard turn 2 and hope enemy didn't move away from plant), Toss Alchemist's Fire 1d6 fire damage (standard turn 3), and then nothing...Even if the Alchemist's Fire catches the small plant on fire that is another 1d6 fire damage for one more round and then that guy is free. He basically wasted 3 rounds doing 1d6 damage where a level 4 ranger SHOULD be putting a minimum of 2 arrows at 1d10+2 damage into the guy...and probably moving further than 10 ft away from him too.
A masterwork breastplate? Cheap and common, and probably by 2nd level.
A masterwork nodachi? They would have to custom-order it from a major trading city, and have to explain to me how their characters even knew what it was.
Eh Tian Xia isn't too far away in the world and with Absalom being in the middle of the world there are traders eveywhere...its up to you what your players get but its probably not unlikely if you play in the Golarian world...
I'm looking to start up an adventure path that i'm pretty sure one of my group has read cover to cover, and would know how to optimize his character to the point that everyone else is practically useless in the campaign. He's a notorious power gamer in our group who always tries to break the campaign, however when he DMs he gets mad when we have optimized characters.
I'm looking for a good way to give everyone equal spotlight in this campaign, because in our group we have a representation of all 4 major types of gamers in the group: The Hack n Slasher, the Intellectual, the Power Gamer, and the role player/actor.
I was thinking of pregenerating the characters for them, at least stat/class wise, but letting the players flesh out their personalities, and making all the characters PFS legal even though this isnt going to be a PFS game. My friend the intellectual, who also has a problem with our power game suggested just having everyone make their characters the first session and to supervise it, though i'm sure that even with having them make the characters there, our in house power gamer will still make the "ultimate X" character and over shadow everyone else so they feel left out.
I know its extra work to make all the characters and randomly assign them in the first game, but it can allow everyone to be on equal footing to begin with instead of having one super optimized character as well as suboptimal and bad characters.
My other option is not inviting this one guy to the game, however he is still a good role player and is fun to have in the party even when he's overshadowing everyone else.
The campaign i'm looking to run is Skull and Shackles, which fits our group because even when we play a standard "heroic fantasy" campaign, our groups tend to turn to piracy and chaos... always lol. With my luck though, the party will end up being super heroic instead of pirates lol.
So TLDR Which is a better choice: Generating characters the first meeting, or pregenerating the characters for the group?
I HAD two players in my group that were powergamers/min-maxers/optimizers/rules lawyers. I no longer invite them for two reasons: the first being for everything you described above; the second because there are times when I would expediate aspects of a session in a theater of the mind/cinematic style of play only to have these two jackholes state quite emphatically "YOU CAN'T DO THAT. YOU GIVE US A DC, WE GRAB THE D20 AND ROLL!!!". This happened to me a half a dozen times so I stopped running and allowed another GM to take over who tried to do the same thing only to get just as frustrated. Those two gamers are no longer invited at our tables and have pretty much been kicked out of our group. The sad thing is, they were awesome RPers. When it was explained why they got the boot, they got indignant and said said that they were playing the way the game is supposed to be played. My response, go find a group that games the way the game is "supposed" to be played then.
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Re: Entangle
The spell needs plants. If there's no plants, the player uses his own plant in a pot.
Which covers maybe a 1'x1' square. So A 1'x1' square inside the entire area of effect has sufficient vegetation to entangle a foe. Gosh. Oh, and as it was thrown in a pot-plant, it isn't securely rooted, so it won't stop anyone from moving.
It works. It's not powergaming.
No, it's way beyond that.
It's not cheating.
It's just blatant misinterpretation of the rules in a manner no sane, experienced DM would allow.
It's being smart and creative.
Most munchkins think this about themselves.
This isn't a computer game where you can do only what's scripted. It's an RPG. Only your imagination and rules are the limit (sometimes not even rules).
No, but it is a game with rules that regulate actions so that no-body can just say "I win!"
Just remember that if he's not caring for the plant, it might die and be unusable to him.
What, like throwing it away?
Just for the record:
Entangle
School transmutation; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex partial; see text; Spell Resistance no
Note that the Area says clearly "plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread" if the pot-plant is the only plant in the area, it is the only plant effected. The spell does not say that any plants in the area grow to cover the area, merely that all the plants in the area are effected. It does specify that the plants in question have to be large enough to effectively entangle their targets. Any part of the area not covered by plants is therefore unaffected by this spell.
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Gamers of this variety tend to be overbearing a@**~~#s. We had one in our group for a while. We all started out as friends, got along outside of game. As we gamed together, his overbearing a$*#*&%ness started to come out, and after a few years became apparent to everyone that that was in fact his true nature. The kind of person that gains enjoyment from ruining the fun for others, in game, out of game, it didn't matter.
Out of our 6 or 7 person gaming group, NO ONE to this day keeps in touch with this jerkwad.
I advise you to save yourself and your group some grief and let this guy go now.
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Abusing that poor plant and killing it intentionally IMO is not reverent.And summoning animals to fight for him and get slaughtered is? Also the plant isn't killed. It shrinks back to normal after the spell is over. Taking a Druids powers for something like that is a jerk move and punishing a player for using his head.
Reread how summons work you have it wrong...when reduced to zero they simply return to their plane of existance...nothing says they die forever.
And throwing it isn't bad...INTENTIONALLY LIGHTING IT ON FIRE IS! Its premeditated plant murder!
The Area part id what the spell creates, not what it needs to work.
Again you can only throw the plant 10 ft and the area is 40 ft radius, so therefore you just trapped yourself and all of your travelling companions along with the enemy. Also, if he chooses to them burn a HUGE area of plants using Alchemist's Fire how is this NOT irreverent?
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@ImperatorK
It comes down to this. If I turn to that player and point out that they are going to not be able to fight two handed or cast somatic spells while holding a weapon (they are carrying a plant in the other hand) and make them explain how they are keeping it alive and not being thought completely insane for being a guy walking around with a potted plant, and they make it work to fit verisimilitude of the setting, that is being creative.
If when I say the above they say I'm being cruel, they are just being a jackass.
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Which covers maybe a 1'x1' square. So A 1'x1' square inside the entire area of effect has sufficient vegetation to entangle a foe. Gosh. Oh, and as it was thrown in a pot-plant, it isn't securely rooted, so it won't stop anyone from moving.All requirements that the spell doesn't care for.
Yes it does, it clearly states the area of effect is "plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread" and if this is the only plant, it's all that is effected.
The Area part id what the spell creates, not what it needs to work.
If the Area creates plants within the area of effect as you purport, why then do you need to throw a pot-plant into the area of effect for it to work? Obviously it doesn't mean this is what the spell creates, it means this is what the spell has an effect upon.
Let's look at another example, circle of death. It says: "Area several living creatures within a 40-ft.-radius burst" does this mean that (by your interpretation of entangle that the Area is what the spell creates) the entire area fills with living creatures that are then effected? Or does this mean that only living creatures within the area of effect stated are effected?
Yes, it's the latter.
Hence the Entangle spell only works on plants that are within the area. It does not grow them, it does not spread them over the area, it merely allows the plants that exist within the area to entangle those persons unlucky enough to be stood in their square.
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Reread how summons work you have it wrong...when reduced to zero they simply return to their plane of existance...nothing says they die forever.Oh. So unless they die, it's okay? It doesn't matter that they suffer? That's animal cruelty. Druid loses powers!
And throwing it isn't bad...INTENTIONALLY LIGHTING IT ON FIRE IS! Its premeditated plant murder!Sorry, but I said nothing about burning anything. My only argument here is that using a plant in a pot isn't cheating or wrong.
Again you can only throw the plant 10 ft and the area is 40 ft radius, so therefore you just trapped yourself and all of your travelling companions along with the enemy.Things can be thrown up to 5 times it's increment. Or 4. Regardless, further then 10 ft.
#1- Nope. If this were the Druid intentionally sending his Animal Companion into a fight where it knew it was going to get killed or using Handle Animal to send a group of animals into a dungeon to set off traps then I would agree. But, at this point your arguments aren't the same because they are summoned creatures. If we were to play by the rules you are setting forth then everyone that uses summoned creatures for combat would have to be chaotic evil.
#2- Read the OP before posting responses to people that are posting responses to the OP.
#3- I'd pay money to see a druid throw a potted plant 50 ft. with a -8 to hit. If thats his strategy (and I'm sure its not) he isn't a power gamer he is a moron. The impression given is that the player throws the plant and the plant is the only thing that entangles the enemy, so I am pretty sure the player isn't even implying that it generates a 40 ft. radius area.
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So just some thoughts here:
1st: Him reading the adventure path is a big problem, and you need to explicitly explain that to him. I would probably change elements of the adventure path so that he does not metagame as much.
2nd: The Entagle trick you described does not work, and you need to be the one to shut stuff like that down.
3rd: I don't see a problem with tricking enemies into reading trapped papers and the like. That's just smart play.
4th: Remember that as DM, you are GOD. If you don't like something, shut it down. Things work how YOU say they work. If someone is doings something to ruin the fun of the game, stop it.
5th: I understand your hesitation to kick people, but sometimes it's the best thing for everyone.
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Arguing with a munchkin over the rules is like trying to play chess with a pigeon: It doesn't matter how right you are or how good your strategy, the pigeon is always going to knock over the pieces, cr@p on the board and then strut about as if it's won.
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And back at the plot...
So just some thoughts here:
1st: Him reading the adventure path is a big problem, and you need to explicitly explain that to him. I would probably change elements of the adventure path so that he does not metagame as much.
Agreed. In fact by doing this he is effectively excluding himself from the game already.
2nd: The Entagle trick you described does not work, and you need to be the one to shut stuff like that down.
Agreed by just about everyone except ImperatorK who thinks it's cool and balanced.
3rd: I don't see a problem with tricking enemies into reading trapped papers and the like. That's just smart play.
Agreed.
4th: Remember that as DM, you are GOD. If you don't like something, shut it down. Things work how YOU say they work. If someone is doings something to ruin the fun of the game, stop it.
Absolutely good advice.
5th: I understand your hesitation to kick people, but sometimes it's the best thing for everyone.
Which is pretty much where the OP is at, and I second it.
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Abusing that poor plant and killing it intentionally IMO is not reverent.And summoning animals to fight for him and get slaughtered is? Also the plant isn't killed. It shrinks back to normal after the spell is over. Taking a Druids powers for something like that is a jerk move and punishing a player for using his head.
That's not "using his head", it's the opposite.
Powergamer: "I haz potted plant to lob at people so I can cast entangle anywhere."
Gamemaster: "You're an idiot. No."
PG: "But the rulz sez-"
GM: "I AM the rules."
OR
PG: "I lob my plant at him."
GM: "Great, take a standard action to make a to-hit roll. -4 for using an improvised weapon, -8 for range."
PG: *rolls an 18* "I hit AC 9."
GM: "You miss and since there is no vegetation in any square other than where you poor shrubbery has landed you won't be able to use entangle on him next round."
OR
PG: "I lob my plant at him."
GM: "Great, take a standard action to make a to-hit roll. -4 for using an improvised weapon, -8 for range."
PG: *rolls a natural 20* "I hit for 2 pts of bludgeoning damage."
GM: "On his action he leaves his square (and you poor mistreated shrubbery) to charge and attack the guy who lobbed a shrubbery at him and you still won't be able to cast entangle on him next round."
OR
PG: "I lob my plant at him."
GM: "Great, take a standard action to make a to-hit roll. -4 for using an improvised weapon, -8 for range."
PG: *rolls a natural 20* "I hit for 2 pts of bludgeoning damage."
GM: "On his action he stands there dumbfounded by your idiocy. You may now cast entangle on him."
PG: "I DO SO." *casts spell*
GM: "You've successfully entangled his big toe. He leaves his square (and you poor mistreated shrubbery) to charge and attack the guy who lobbed a shrubbery at him and cast a spell that is currently cutting of the circulation to his toe via. enchanted shrub."
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Arguing with a munchkin over the rules is like trying to play chess with a pigeon: It doesn't matter how right you are or how good your strategy, the pigeon is always going to knock over the pieces, cr@p on the board and then strut about as if it's won.
Yup, which is why based on the answers provided, I am pretty sure I would politely smile at ImperatorK then apologize later when I forgot to call him and let him know when we were playing next.
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PG: "I lob my plant at him."
GM: "Great, take a standard action to make a to-hit roll. -4 for using an improvised weapon, -8 for range."
PG: *rolls an 18* "I hit AC 9."
GM: "You miss and since there is no vegetation in any square other than where you poor shrubbery has landed you won't be able to use entangle on him next round."
Yup.
If the best use of a standard action you have is throwing a potted plant at the BBEG you have already failed.
Not exactly a tactic usable by rangers, but right on!
I would just like to point out that when I play a druid, I am usually FAR too busy EATING THE FACES OF MY ENEMIES AS A T-REX to worry about throwing potted plants at people.
That's disgusting. Why on earth do you stop at just their faces?
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Also, I would like to point out:
Derp: I throw a potted plant at that guy!
GM: Ok, roll to hit
*Derp rolls a Nat 20*
GM: Ok, you hit him. He's very confused by your idiocy
Next Round
Derp: I cast entangle on the potted plant.
GM: The plant entangles him. Since it's not rooted to the ground, he walks away on his turn, still totally confused. Bob it's your turn.
Bob: I use a tanglefoot bag on the enemy. Because I'm not an idiot.
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I would just like to point out that when I play a druid, I am usually FAR too busy EATING THE FACES OF MY ENEMIES AS A T-REX to worry about throwing potted plants at people.That's disgusting. Why on earth do you stop at just their faces?
Because my druid is old school and enjoys relishing in the suffering of her enemies.
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Also, I would like to point out:
Derp: I throw a potted plant at that guy!
GM: Ok, roll to hit
*Derp rolls a Nat 20*
GM: Ok, you hit him. He's very confused by your idiocy
Next Round
Derp: I cast entangle on the potted plant.
GM: The plant entangles him. Since it's not rooted to the ground, he walks away on his turn, still totally confused. Bob it's your turn.
Bob: I use a tanglefoot bag on the enemy. Because I'm not an idiot.
I would just like to point out that when I play a druid, I am usually FAR too busy EATING THE FACES OF MY ENEMIES AS A T-REX to worry about throwing potted plants at people.
^Doinitrite.