|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My post was talking about people repeating information already contained in the OP's question instead of answering the question.
The answer is so obvious as to not need stating.
There are, after all, only two types of people. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I hope you don't include me in the "I'll kill 'em and give reasons to justify it for the evil" group.I spoke of no such group. My post was talking about people repeating information already contained in the OP's question instead of answering the question.
Then I misunderstood. My apologies.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Then I misunderstood. My apologies.I hope you don't include me in the "I'll kill 'em and give reasons to justify it for the evil" group.I spoke of no such group. My post was talking about people repeating information already contained in the OP's question instead of answering the question.
*waggles finger at Matthew*
I am curious how other GMs feel about this? I don't get to play often and I experienced this at GenCon while playing there and was so surprised when it happened.
My policy: I try to avoid attacking helpless targets unless it would make no sense not to do so (e.g. a ghoul is stuck to the floor next to a paralyzed character and has no other targets in reach).
|
|
Amazing how the OP basically asks "if there's no in-character reasons to do X, should the GM do it anyway?" and then the majority of the replies are "here's an in-character reason to do X".
That type of thing seems to happen a lot around here...
I suppose I irritated Jiggy with my list of reasons.
To answer the OP's second question, and to beg for Jigg's approval, I personally would not expect anything from any GM that I have not played with, we all have different play styles, and GM styles. This is even more important when playing in different regions, and at conventions.
I hope you don't include me in the "I'll kill 'em and give reasons to justify it for the evil" group.I spoke of no such group. My post was talking about people repeating information already contained in the OP's question instead of answering the question.
I think it is because posters here have a habit of answering their own questions in their post so the question presented is not actually the question being asked.
Example:I know _____ is a jerk move, but should I do it anyway.
Now in the example the OP has already admitted _____ was jerk move. Generally speaking jerks moves are a "no no". What he most likely is really asking for are detailed reasons why he should or should not do it, or more likely he wants confirmation/justification that will make him feel better if he is going to do it anyway.
I think it is the job the Judge to play the NPCs to the height of their intelligence. If it's a big dumb animal, it should act like a big dumb animal. If it's a hyper-intelligent, sentient being, it should act hyper-intelligently.
Not sure how you mean this? What do you suppose a "big dumb animal" would do? Pick up the new food it just killed and run away, or square off against the next target?
Case in point, this character (and the group) were fighting two gricks near a pool of water. This character went into negatives and fell. GM hadthe grick that "killed" me turn around and fight the paladin in our group. I called foul. That grick was just dumb enough to try to grab the food and escape into the water with a new meal.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
I think it is the job the Judge to play the NPCs to the height of their intelligence. If it's a big dumb animal, it should act like a big dumb animal. If it's a hyper-intelligent, sentient being, it should act hyper-intelligently.
Not sure how you mean this? What do you suppose a "big dumb animal" would do? Pick up the new food it just killed and run away, or square off against the next target?
Case in point, this character (and the group) were fighting two gricks near a pool of water. This character went into negatives and fell. GM hadthe grick that "killed" me turn around and fight the paladin in our group. I called foul. That grick was just dumb enough to try to grab the food and escape into the water with a new meal.
Perhaps it was really hungry, and wanted to grab an appetizer to go with its dinner...
|
So to make it clear, I am not saying Killing a PC is Bad...
I am Mostly Saying Continuing to beat on a PC who is Down and wasting your time when there are much greater dangers around is Bad form by a GM... And that is what I was witnessing.
So to give some details..
It happened to me Once in the Scenario almost twice But I got lucky the first time. It also happened to another character and it was the second time he Died in the Scenario.
After reading the scenario much of the reasoning the GM was giving for my PC being numero uno target I am calling BS on, but I may have biased opinion on that at this point in time.
|
|
How does a pc/npc know if the target they just brought below 0 hp is dead or just dying?
How does he know that their next attack just brought their target from dying to dead?
How does he know when to stop attacking a target that was initially in the dying state but became dead through the pc/npc's attacks?
What kind of action does it take for a pc/npc to get this information?
|
|
How does a pc/npc know if the target they just brought below 0 hp is dead or just dying?
How does he know that their next attack just brought their target from dying to dead?
How does he know when to stop attacking a target that was initially in the dying state but became dead through the pc/npc's attacks?
What kind of action does it take for a pc/npc to get this information?
None of that matters, when the PC goes down and there are much more dangerous PCs in the combat to worry about now that the PC you just took down is not in it anymore.
The point is not if the opponent knows if he killed or just put a PC into dying, the point is once the PC is down he is no longer a threat when you are surrounded by many other ones, Unless there is a very (Stress very) valid reason for the opponent to think otherwise.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I try to put myself in the monster's shoes. Even a dumb monster fights instinctively. If there's another threat, he'll deal with it before killing the unconscious PC - usually.
If a BBEG is acting out of anger, rather than tactically - then yes, he kills. But even an angry man doesn't want to die.
Point being, there are cases when killing a PC intentionally (rather than dealing with other threats) is called for... but those cases are very very rare.
If there's an AOE spell that kills a PC whilst dealing with another threat, that's different.
I see it differently.
Scenario: Monster is doing a full attack action (3attacks) against a lone PC (lone = nobody within a 5foot step). 2nd attack drops the PC and it has only one left.
Why would the monster stop attacking? If you are fighting someone how long does it take you to realize they are going down? Wouldnt you have put in a couple of extra attacks before you realize they are dropping? I wouldnt. With another threat in the area I might pause while attacking to see how effective I am being but otherwise I will focus entirely on the creature I am facing.
Other scenarios would have other results.
If there is another threat within easy reach then no, the monster should not beat a downed PC unless it is appropriate for that monster to do so.
Sometimes, it just sucks to be on the receiving end of this.
- Gauss
I agree with Gauss. Rip and tear, rip and tear, but don't always kill everyone that is downed.
|
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Society needs more GMs like Shar Tahl.
It's not the GMs job to play the NPCs to the fullest of their ability. It is the GMs job to make sure the players have fun.
Kill PCs who wander off from the party, who make bad decisions, who commit evil acts. Kill PCs who are out of control. Punish bad playing.
But PFS isn't a competition of GM versus Player. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. This entire genre is based upon characters being brought to the brink of death, tested to their limits, and succeeding. Frodo dunked the ring, Eragon and Luke overthrew the bad guys, Harry Potter died but he still won. I know this isn't answering your question regarding the rules of how an NPC knows when to stop fighting a down character, it's to remind GMs of the first rule of Pathfinder Society, "Have fun!"
To directly answer your question, yes, it is bad form. Mechanically, it can happen. Personally, I think it is pretty meta on the GM's part to target your cleric under the mentality that "Monsters know they should go after people with holy symbols first" when there are 2 Paladins in the party. If the GM is going to play the characters like that, then he needs to spend 3 rounds full attacking the corpse on the ground to ensure it is not getting up because how does the monster know if he's truly staying down. I'm sorry you got stuck with a killer GM.
|
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton
|
It's not the GMs job to play the NPCs to the fullest of their ability. It is the GMs job to make sure the players have fun.Some players find it ruins their fun if the DM doesn't play the NPCs to the fullest.
And some players don't, so what's your point? It's still not the GM's job to run them to the fullest of their ability. They can if that's what is going to be fun for the group. If it's not fun for the group, they're not going to come back.
|
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton
|
Are you just trying to rationalize killing every PC you run for? Or are you just a troll, based upon the rest of the posts in this thread? You're not really going to change my mind or "win" any point in this. The Killer GM mentality is a growing problem in PFS. We're dealing with it in 2 LGS in my area with GMs who boast their kill count. It was a problem on free RPG day with under powered pregens and players who wanted something different from D&D4E and saw PFS as just another game for the min/maxers. There were even complaints at GenCon from players distraught over TPKs with their new characters, and this thread is based upon people dieing twice in the same scenario.
No one is telling you not to play NPCs to their utmost. If the players can't keep up with your skill level and quit playing because they get frustrated from dieing all the time, it's not the player's faults they aren't having fun. There's a line between challenging and bullying.
|
|
Is it not a given it is part of the GMs job to at least try to ensure players have fun?
And if the players cannot have fun when the DM softballs the NPCs, then it is his job to play hardball.
The Killer GM mentality is a growing problem in PFS. We're dealing with it in 2 LGS in my area with GMs who boast their kill count.
If you do not like that playstyle, stop playing with those DMs.
|
|
I've GM'd a lot of games. And, let me tell you, this can be almost as sticky of a subject as an alignment arguement.
The answer to "Should a GM hit a PC when he's down (in PFS)" is obvious. If it's reasonable and expected within the alignment/behaviour of the NPC/Monster, than of course he should.
The problem (and the arguement) comes in because the above can be pretty subjective sometimes. Does a bugbear with a few attacks use all three to tear up the guy who went down after the first hit, or does he get tactical in his bunny brain, five foot step over and use the rest on the paladin with the shiny shield? Does an evil wizard move his fireball over an extra square and finish off the downed PC to make sure that the person wearing a symbol of Sarenrae can't raise him (He doesn't know she's a cleric, but it's a good possibility!) The arguements on every "What if" alone could fill up threads.
It's just going to be one of those things that most of us have to, for the sake of harmony, agree to disagree on. I like the spirit of the OP who thanked the GM for his hard time in setting up/running the scenario. At the end of the day, even if your character died, hopefully you're man enough to understand that while we take this stuff a bit seriously (as we should), it is just a game, and we're not always going to agree on the call the judge (gm) makes in every situation no more than everyone agrees with every penalty flag in football. If there was a mistake, I certainly feel for your less, but loss due to GM error is part of the game, and it does happen on a rare occasion. (And, hey, it works both ways...I cannot tell you the dozens of times I forget to use creatures' special attacks or defenses resulting in players NOT dying where maybe they should).
|
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton
|
The Killer GM mentality is a growing problem in PFS. We're dealing with it in 2 LGS in my area with GMs who boast their kill count.No one is telling you not to play NPCs to their utmost. If the players can't keep up with your skill level and quit playing because they get frustrated from dieing all the time, it's not the player's faults they aren't having fun. There's a line between challenging and bullying.
I thought the whole point of PFS was to be a kinda 'easy mode'. It's more for fun than realism, and unless you have your character do something incredibly stupid, death should not occur regularly.
If this is the case, then no, the GM should not CDG or kill downed players.
If this isn't the case, then have the NPCs do what makes sense at the time. Proud of your awesome fighter? Well, so is that Orc that dropped him. So proud in fact he's going to make sure he never has to fight him again...
|
|
It is the player's fault if they knowingly continue to game with a bully. If you tell me you don't like the taste, I'm going to tell you to stop drinking it. Simple as that.
I almost exclusively play with my group of friends, so I know what to expect from them, but when I go to Gen Con and get one of these killer DM's, then what is my recourse? I mean, my character is already dead. Not gaming with them is moot at that point.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@ ciretose Amen! I don't go out of my way to kill PCs, but when you're sore, wounded, low on resources and they're still coming is when the adrenaline flows.
@Cylyria. *shrug* When I played Dex (5 GM credit scenarios in) and he was bleeding out, I said "characters are like Doritos. Crunch all you want, I'll make more." Do I want to lose a character? No. Will I get over it? Yes.
|
|
I almost exclusively play with my group of friends, so I know what to expect from them, but when I go to Gen Con and get one of these killer DM's, then what is my recourse? I mean, my character is already dead. Not gaming with them is moot at that point.
Find out who is DMing your tables ahead of time and research them on the forums? Kyle is pretty notorious for killing PCs from what I've read around here.
If they don't post here, you have to make the decision to take the risk yourself. If you don't think you can handle the chance of getting a killer DM and losing your PC, don't play that table. It is too late to complain about it when your character is already dead. You took that risk and have to live with the result.
|
|
The difference is, Kyle is actually reasonable about how he runs his encounters and monsters. When I played with him one PC died but it was to a breath weapon not because the dragon thought it made sense to walk over and attack him while he was down.
Some DMs will go out of their way to kill a PC for no reason other than some rack up some sort of silly kill score.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@Feral, This is always a possibility.
OT spoiler
It's a tough job, and I don't pretend to be good at it. (though I am good at funny voices) If a GM gets a 'thrill up his leg' at killing PCs, then he needs to re-evaluate why he's at the table.
|
|
But, really, unless the GM is clicking his heels and laughing meniaclly that "he killed you," you're discerning an aweful lot based on one run at GenCon. It seems much more plausable that the GM made a call that the monster/baddie finished you off, and you didn't agree with his 'monster reasoning'...and now you're stomping your feet and claiming that he 'enjoys killing PCs.' (Either that, or he acted like he didn't like it even though he did and you rolled a 20 on your sense motive!)