Stacking Pugwampi's Grace + Misfortune Hex + Ill Omen


Rules Questions


16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Which of these stack? How many times do they reroll when a d20 is called for?

Pugwampi's Grace (Inner Sea Magic)

Misfotune Hex (APG)

Ill Omen (APG)

Number of re-rolls for:

1) Pugwampi's Grace + Misfortune Hex
2) Pugwampi's Grace + Ill Omen
3) Misfortune Hex + Ill Omen
4) Pugwampi's Grace + Misfortune Hex + Ill Omen


None of them say they don't stack with any other effects that forces rerolls, and none of those spells put any sort of typed penalty, so there's nothing to not stack.

Mathematically, if they did stack, each reroll would also require a reroll, so, at minimum levels, the first three situations would force four rolls, while the last eight.

However, I don't think that tactic would make you very popular at the table, plus it's pretty resource-intensive against only one opponent. Sure, save it for BBEG with claw-claw-bite, and maybe folks don't mind sitting around while the poor GM has to roll 24 attack rolls each turn. Of course, at upper levels where ill omen is forcing five rolls instead of two, your great wyrm tries its eight or so natural attacks on you and everybody goes for coffee while the GM makes his 160 attack rolls per round...


My opinion is that they don't stack because they do very specific things. They do not make someone roll an extra die. They specifically make them roll 2 dice instead of 1.


If you roll two dice instead of one each of those two dice is (drumroll please) a die roll. That's why it multiplies instead of adding.

You can use this on the players with a quartet of not very high level actual pugwampi witches: Ill omen has no save and can't be removed until the victim gets a turn, then Save four times against evil eye unless you have a luck bonus and take -2 to saves for a round even if you make the save, then save four times at -2 against misfortune, then save 8 times at -2 against slumber. Then slumber the next player. Then CDG them all with tiny scythes.


If someone is failing twice on will saves then they deserve all the bad stuff that follows. It could easily be charm or sleep or any number of worse things. As is ill omen is not that impressive to use on players. I know I would just use acrobatics as part of my movement the next round, fail that roll and then smash the little witches face in with my now unhindered attack roll.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd take a cue from the multiplication rules.

Something that has roll 2 take the lower? Do that.

Two such things? Roll 3 and take the lowest.

Three such things? Roll 4 and take the lowest.

Also: Pugwampis are broken and should be banned, their ability is too stupidly powerful for their CR and (optimization wise) they seem built just to stick one, invisible, in a room to screw over a party against [insert actual opposition].

Those other roll 2, take lower abilities all have some or all of the following: single target, save negates, and/or very limited duration / amount of forced rerolls before expended.

EDIT: Oh, that's a spell that actually is in line with the other effects. Not an actual, broken, no save, AoE pugwampi...


Ah, misremembering ill omen. It should be second to last in the cycle so it effects the slumber saves. You're not getting out by blowing an acrobatics roll, though. You're not going to get that turn unless you're an elf (or half-elf or probably drow) or very lucky.


So I asked James Jacob's his thoughts on this matter and he responded here.

He first said:

James Jacobs wrote:
I would say that they don't stack. Mostly because they're all very similar effects, and by not stacking, you don't slow the game down too much by making TOO many rolls have to happen.

but then when I asked him to clarify on whether this was an actual ruling or what you would do to speed up table play he punted to the Venture Captain.

When I asked my local Venture Captain he punted to the GM. So for now, until there is an official FAQ, the GM at your table can interpret how these spell effects stack.

Personally I would do it as StreamOfTheSky suggested above, get one additional roll for each effect because the penalties are non-typed. If they were typed, like "profane" or something like that it would be clear that they couldn't stack.

Please FAQ the original post to bring this to the attention of the devs.


Any updates on this? Was this ever FAQ'd?


Add actual pugwampis to this too- first world summoners are basically one trick pony witches focused on an AoE, multiturn, node based misfortune hex.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Stacking Pugwampi's Grace + Misfortune Hex + Ill Omen All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.