So now that the Star Wars beta information has started to circulate, I thought I'd toss this up.
What we know:
What I am guessing/thinking:
So what do you all think? Doom and Gloom? Rosey Happy Fun times? Something else entirely?
I... don't know what to think, yet. Will have to see it in print. I've played all the SWRPG editions, and enjoyed most of them. I think Saga had some of the worst splat books I've ever seen in a game, while the WEG had some of the best written splat books I've ever seen in an RPG.
So I definitely hope FFG will shoot for the latter. :)
I play Dark Heresy though, and the print quality of their 40k lines is beyond excellent, so I have fairly high hopes for this. Even if the notion of funky dice turn me off a bit. We'll see.
This is incredible! I would have hoped it would have used the Dark Heresy d100 system but I still trust FFG to do a awesome job.
I think that FFG charging $30 for a beta test of the rules is rediculous...but it's Star Wars and people will pay. Luckily I made my Will save and avoided THE TRAP that Akbar warned me of :-)
I remember when companies used to pay people to beta test their games.
Now I just get this Darth Vader vibe from FFG.
[Darth Vader]I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further.[/Darth Vader]
I remember when companies used to pay people to beta test their games.
According to the site, the beta book is the finished product minus art. So I don't know how much beta it really is.
Beta for the second print errata, maybe! :)
Since I'm really stupid with my money I'm sorely tempted to get this, though I don't really want to order a physical book from them. I'd rather try to talk my LFGS into ordering home some copies.
I figure that in a couple weeks we'll start seeing praise/rage blog posts about the game on the internet. Hold strong Slaunyeh! Don't give in to the dark side :-)
I will probably poke around the Star Wars forum on FFG's website a bit too, as things progress. I'm Callidon over there.
I promise to post links to pertinent discussions/blogs/reviews/etc that I come across back here if y'all will too.
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I'm honestly a bit disappointed, not in a full nerd rage kind of thing, just more a simmering groan.
*Custom dice - for one or two games it was a novelty (assuming you play other FFG product lines, which I and my group do), now it's something every FFG game does and it's getting a bit overwhelming. Not to mention getting extra sets can get expensive, and when the line becomes less popular, hard to get.
*3 Core games - that was the promise with the 40K line, and now we're at 5, and possibly, counting core games. Plus the requisite bestiary, gm screen, 3 part adventure, etc. It makes it an intimidating thought if you're a setting junkie or collector.
*According to the Gencon presentations the license does not allow PDFs, but it's unclear if this can still be negotiated. Regardless, I like to read my books and game with my PDFs. I don't want to go back to a life of 70lbs. backpacks.
*$30 Beta ($40 with shipping) with the implication that the product is basically done, so other than proofreading, there doesn't seem to be a huge window for change.
*Core Game timeline stretches from 2013 to 2015 meaning that it's going to be up to or over 3 years before I can run a true "force users" campaign ala Old Republic.
The fact that Sterling Hershey, a veteran of every Star Wars line since WEG, is involved does a lot to encourage me to believe that my concerns are minor, but we'll see. I know the guys from Order 66/D20 Radio have copies, so I'm interested to hear their take on it too.
Moreso, my concern is that there seems to be a disturbing trend emerging for those who follow FFG that every game needs multiple expansions, supplements, custome gear/token/widgets, etc.
FFG has to know that it has a license to print money with the Star Wars line, and I would really, really, hate to see them abuse that.
It doesn't look as though we'll have the same pile of gear in Star Wars as they do in WFRP. Custom dice, and the rest in books. I think that lacking the ability to generate pdf content for Star Wars will cause more problems than anything else. People are rapidly going bookless, so lacking support for that medium will cut a segment of the gamer population off.
In terms of the mechanics I would anticipate a fairly intuitive narrative style game (the simulationist tit-for-tat "must have a rule to govern flatulence" gamers are going to poo themselves). If WFRP 3E is anything to go on, the funky dice and mechanics can work really well. The dice resolution system for WFRP feels like a custom tailored suit (compared to the 'learn to live with it' d100 style of 1st or 2nd edition WFRP).
I'm hoping the mechanics for FFG Star Wars will provide that same level of "holy crap I feel like I'm actually playing star wars!" Then again I'm partial to the elegance of dice pools. But the funky dice really help to free us up from the typical "roll a bunch of dX" systems. You don't even blink at combining three d8's, a d6 and a d10 into the same dice pool...since your brain ends up looking for the symbols. The symbols also allow for the designers to tailor the mechanics even further because they can put multiple symbols on one face of a die. Is it doable with numbers and charts? Sure. But the crazy symbol dice aren't difficult to learn. It's just part of learning to play a new game. The real issue is going to be FFG charging $60 for every freakin' book they produce in the line whether it is 400 pages or 96.
In the end, if FFG doesn't offer a fun game experience, I'll just stick to my tattered old WEG books :-) Mostly I'm just happy to see the new Star Wars cut loose from a clunky d100 system, or the bass-ackwards feel of the d20 Star Wars games (I'm not a big believer in one-system-to-rule-them-all).
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I'm not optimistic about any RPG from Fantasy Flight games. The WHFRP rules were incomplete and overpriced. Fortunately, our group fell apart before I had purchased too many things. It sounds like FFG is going down the same path with Star Wars, so I don't forsee any investment of time or money in this game, beta or otherwise.
I'll say cautiously optimistic... I'm a little Star Wars-ed out... but FFG has a pretty good track record, as far as I'm concerned...
Duh. Funky dice... Nope. Not going to bother with buying funky dice. I have too bags of dice that are used in various game. Buying special dice for single game I won't be solely focusing on? Nope.
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While I've only seen images on a blog (forgive me, can't find the link) there is a table for converting standard dice to the special ones.
Having said that, I expect most of the materials will be written with reference to the special dice symbol, so doing conversions on the fly may be more pain than it's worth.
Excited but sad at the same time
Our game group has been talking about this for months and we were sure they would use the d100 system they profected during the 40KRPG games but we were wrong and im now worried about this new mechanic lets hope its more like d6 star wars and alot less like d20
and No PDFs is going to suck
I loved the dice system in 3rd edition. Our group just didn't like all the fiddly bits. Took forever to set up and remember how many bits and bobbles and whatnots each character had and how far along various tracks everything was. I would love to try again, but my group is hesitant. When we went over to pathfinder afterwards I wanted to find a way to work in some of the dice :p
If it's just dice and less fiddly bits I'm sold. But not until the actual game is out. Don't think I'd be willing to dish out for the beta.
Looks like FFG has a long road ahead of them. People already pissed off about dice of all things.
Funky dice may be fun but they are inconvenience in the long run. Regular dice are universal tool, one set fits multiple games, most gamers have them already. Also, while that may not be intent of designers, it does look to gamers as money grab and really is additional money sink increasing the cost of playing the game.
How much are there successful RPGs that decided for use of funky dice instead of regular dice or other exotic accessories that were needed to play? The closest thing to success would be FUDGE/FATE, I think. Warhammer 3rd edition would be going worse if not for the brand - still it got lot of negative reaction for drastic changes from 2nd edition, at least here in Poland where Warhammer is a big deal.
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Looks like FFG has a long road ahead of them. People already pissed off about dice of all things.Funky dice may be fun but they are inconvenience in the long run. Regular dice are universal tool, one set fits multiple games, most gamers have them already. Also, while that may not be intent of designers, it does look to gamers as money grab and really is additional money sink increasing the cost of playing the game.
How much are there successful RPGs that decided for use of funky dice instead of regular dice or other exotic accessories that were needed to play? The closest thing to success would be FUDGE/FATE, I think. Warhammer 3rd edition would be going worse if not for the brand - still it got lot of negative reaction for drastic changes from 2nd edition, at least here in Poland where Warhammer is a big deal.
Exotic accessories? Oh please there is an included conversion table for regular dice sets in the book. By the end of the first session you wont even notice.
Exotic accessories?
Custom dice are exotic accessory until proven otherwise.
EDIT: Obviously exotic is subjective. Dice are exotic accessory for those unused to them.
Oh please there is an included conversion table for regular dice sets in the book.
I am looking on FFG page about more information concerninge exact shape and scoring method but can't find such information. I am not paying $30 plus shipping just to learn that.
By the end of the first session you wont even notice.
I seriously doubt this, knowing some of my players. Actually after seeing a picture of sticky dice sides used to convert regular dice into the new dice I am quite sure than some of my players will have problem with reading the actual funky dice, not to mention conversions.
Also, no love for d10?
I loved the dice system in 3rd edition. Our group just didn't like all the fiddly bits. Took forever to set up and remember how many bits and bobbles and whatnots each character had and how far along various tracks everything was. I would love to try again, but my group is hesitant. When we went over to pathfinder afterwards I wanted to find a way to work in some of the dice :p
If it's just dice and less fiddly bits I'm sold. But not until the actual game is out. Don't think I'd be willing to dish out for the beta.
Same with my WFRP 3rd group. We play a stripped-down, rules-lite version and really like it a lot. I love the dice mechanics of 3rd edition too. Much more so than d100 in Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, Only War!, etc. There is a learning curve, however.
I won't buy the beta (they already got me for Only War!) but I'm interested in the final product.
As a side-note I think the beta process in Only War! has been a fairly positive one. The developers are incorporating many suggestions into their beta updates and I assume the final printing of Only War! will include even more.
Whether or not it's worth the money or good business, well, opinions will vary for sure.
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Exotic accessories? Oh please there is an included conversion table for regular dice sets in the book. By the end of the first session you wont even notice.
I think WHFRP v3 was pretty exotic all things considered. Whether or not that was the cause of it so rapidly falling into obscurity in most RPG communities, or if it was something flawed in the mechanics themselves over the long run, it's hard to say. Most WHFRP fans I know have flocked whole hog back to v2.
What I do think, is give that, that FFG has placed a lot of faith in taking Jay Little's design mentality and putting him in charge of the Star Wars line.
When did they get their Beta's?
The fact that Sterling Hershey, a veteran of every Star Wars line since WEG, is involved does a lot to encourage me to believe that my concerns are minor, but we'll see. I know the guys from Order 66/D20 Radio have copies, so I'm interested to hear their take on it too.
Last weekend at GenCon, probably. They have a two-hour interview with Sterling Hershey and lead designer Jay Little linked here.
I think WHFRP v3 was pretty exotic all things considered. Whether or not that was the cause of it so rapidly falling into obscurity in most RPG communities, or if it was something flawed in the mechanics themselves over the long run, it's hard to say. Most WHFRP fans I know have flocked whole hog back to v2.
What I do think, is give that, that FFG has placed a lot of faith in taking Jay Little's design mentality and putting him in charge of the Star Wars line.
Warhammer has always been obscure here in the US. WFRP3 hate has become way more of a popular rallying point than the support for v1 or v2 ever was. Nice dig though :-)
If you don't like Jays previous work then chances are pretty good that you won't like his work on Star Wars: Edge of the Empire either. But, there are some that do like his previous and current work. I don't think they, nor FFG, are mistakenly putting trust in Jay Little.
I hate GURPS, but I like that there are people that DO like it, because I think Steve Jackson games bring some variety into the world.
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Warhammer has always been obscure here in the US. WFRP3 hate has become way more of a popular rallying point than the support for v1 or v2 ever was. Nice dig though :-)
*I could choose to dig at your egocentricity for assuming I'm from the US, and that I'm part of some gestalt community of WHFRPv3 bashers, but hey ... that wouldn't be fun now would it? :)
Regardless, I really like Warhammer Fantasy, in all of it's incarnations. But, that doesn't make it less of a flop than it was, and with it getting nothing more than a token mention at Gencon aside from the one product everyone knew about, one can assume it's not getting a lot of love going forward.
I find that Jay L. overcomplicates things in his designs, or in an effort to "enhance" things adds things that over time become barriers to simplicity and straightforwardness. His other latest creation, X-Wing is a perfect example of taking a game that was simple and intuitive (Wings of War) and layering system after system, and dials, and tokens, and widgets, and dice and cards, and stacking and and and ... on top of it all.
And in case you missed it, cause who reads a whole thread these days?
I also wrote:
"The fact that Sterling Hershey, a veteran of every Star Wars line since WEG, is involved does a lot to encourage me to believe that my concerns are minor, but we'll see"
In other words, while I may not like Jay's work, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, since it's not just his baby.
* It could be you were trying to convey sarcasm, and if so, I apologize, but my sarcasm detection and tolerance is really low these days.
Not trying to start an interwebs brawl man. I also never assumed you were from anywhere. I am from the US where WFRP has always been more obscure than the anti-v3 buzz would make peeps believe. It was more bad thought organization on a responsive tangent than sarcasm. The sales flop comments were rattled off as fact, which could be taken as a dig which I did flip around with a bit too much inter-sass. Sorry it came off as a full throttle grenade lob on your end.
I am more interested in how you felt about Jay's design efforts instead of debating the success of WFRP. So thanks for sharing that. It's a more interesting line of discussion. I agree that his work on v3 felt overdesigned. There was a good chunk of the extra accounting tasks that I ended up dropping in favor of just making tick marks on a pos-it
The new Star Wars has a good shot at being a different animal. And I think that the evidence of more 40k-ish career trees and even the dice conversion charts show some progress in that regard. I am also liking the default 'lite' approach they are taking, as opposed to the and, and, and piles I accumulated with WFRP.
*According to the Gencon presentations the license does not allow PDFs, but it's unclear if this can still be negotiated. Regardless, I like to read my books and game with my PDFs. I don't want to go back to a life of 70lbs. backpacks.
That right their is a deal breaker. No PDF support means no me support.
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Not trying to start an interwebs brawl man. I also never assumed you were from anywhere. I am from the US where WFRP has always been more obscure than the anti-v3 buzz would make peeps believe. It was more bad thought organization on a responsive tangent than sarcasm. The sales flop comments were rattled off as fact, which could be taken as a dig which I did flip around with a bit too much inter-sass. Sorry it came off as a full throttle grenade lob on your end.
No worries - it was a long day, and I probably should have avoided conversations in general anyways. I certainly didn't intend it as fact, but more an implication that if what I see on FFG's v3 message boards, and what I see in the circle of various gamers I hang out with is a microcosm of the long term reaction to WFRP then I'm concerned we might see similar longevity issues with Star Wars - assuming entirely that it's a failure in the system, and not content, of course (Star Wars fans for the most part are going to buy it all up regardless).
I am more interested in how you felt about Jay's design efforts instead of debating the success of WFRP. So thanks for sharing that. It's a more interesting line of discussion. I agree that his work on v3 felt overdesigned. There was a good chunk of the extra accounting tasks that I ended up dropping in favor of just making tick marks on a pos-it
I think his heart is in the right place. I've listened to his podcast interview on the Order 66, and he's trying to solve problems with his designs, I'm just not sure they are things I see as problems.
As an example, in combat, he likes the dice pool / comparisons model because he feels like it takes the burden off the GM to come up with interesting results for actions taken in combat.
He's trying to make a game easier to run not by making the system easier, but by placing the burden on the dice pool and various other ... I dunno, call them 'sliders/dials' for lack of a better word.
The new Star Wars has a good shot at being a different animal. And I think that the evidence of more 40k-ish career trees and even the dice conversion charts show some progress in that regard. I am also liking the default 'lite' approach they are taking, as opposed to the and, and, and piles I accumulated with WFRP.
I'm crossing my fingers that when all is said and done, we have another WEG lightning in a bottle - simple to run, cinematic and fast. I may not be too sure about what I'm seeing so far, but in the long run, you never know.
*$30 Beta ($40 with shipping) with the implication that the product is basically done, so other than proofreading, there doesn't seem to be a huge window for change.
*Core Game timeline stretches from 2013 to 2015 meaning that it's going to be up to or over 3 years before I can run a true "force users" campaign ala Old Republic.
Pretty much this, for me. I just kicked off a new d20 RCR SW campaign and had a game store owner solicit me last night to pre-order the FFG beta. I'd consider converting if it would reasonably cover everything in my game, but the first volume's apparent focus on Outer Rim crawls and lack of rules for Force users is woefully inadequate for my needs. And if each beta book costs 30 bucks, I'm effectively waiting 3 years and paying 90 bucks for a beta of a game I can already play with other rule sets I already have. I'll stick to our heavily house-ruled WotC game for now, I think.
PDF-based gaming/collecting has blown up so much in the past few years. Just in the past few days I've had more of my close-by gamers go "meh, not gonna lug it all around" than any other issue.
If only Lucasarts would see the benefit over the fear. Then again, the fan-base for Star Wars is just monstrous in population, so maybe it won't harm the success of the game too much. But it does shrink the pool of gaming options for me which is a big soggy eyed bummer :-)
I'm such a curmudgeon. Star Wars Saga Edition all the way for my crew.
Pretty much this. Everyone in my group, except for the new player, has played every edition of Star Wars RPG's since WEG (including a few Web-based adaptations for other systems), and hands down, they prefer Saga. We talked about potentially moving to FFG at our last session, and they unanimously thumbs-down'ed it.
So I guess that settles our decisions (for now at least, I'm sure at least one of them will buy it eventually).
I didn't look at the book, but I saw them using dice with symbols instead of numbers at the FFG booth at GenCon. I mostly lost interest after that.
I didn't look at the book, but I saw them using dice with symbols instead of numbers at the FFG booth at GenCon. I mostly lost interest after that.
The symbol dice is actually kind of interesting. They allow narrative, none binery results.
You can do things like attack, and hit your opponent cripplingly hard, but also put your self off balance.
Or you can rush to charge, and slip in the mud, thanks to heavy rain.
Or you strike, just landing a blow, but push the enemy of balance, so your next blow will have a better chance of landing.
I have played other games that achieve exactly those kinds of results using normal dice. I highly recommend them, because they're extremely awesome games, an example would be Apocalypse World (or one of it's hacks). It achieves the results you're talking about, but it does it with 2d6 for all rolls.
If your game requires me to buy specific dice for it, it's going to have to blow me away BEFORE I buy it. I played the recent Warhammer game, it was cool, but not cool enough to spend the money on stuff that wasn't useful for anything but that game.
This new game looks like that investment is lower, but its still a turn off for me. You can tell me that it shouldn't be, but it is. Add in that there are several other versions of Star Wars that I do enjoy and it's a non-seller for me.
Hopefully they refined WFRP3 enough for this new game.
We'll see.
jh
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Well it's nice to see a Star Wars game putting you in the Rebellion Era rather then in the horrifically boring old republic setting. It'll be hard to match the West End games for the amazing work they did with the setting.
There were rumours of a sticker sheet that you could recode dice you've already got coming with it too. Not sure if that's true or not.
There were rumours of a sticker sheet that you could recode dice you've already got coming with it too. Not sure if that's true or not.
Yeah, those sticker sheets come with the Beta book. Says so on the FFG site.
There were rumours of a sticker sheet that you could recode dice you've already got coming with it too. Not sure if that's true or not.Yeah, those sticker sheets come with the Beta book. Says so on the FFG site.
They've also got a pdf of the sticker sheet available. The standard dice conversion chart in the book seems a bit clunky to me but, to people that have blind white hot rage at six dice symbols to learn, it's within the realm of memorization.
It still just rubs me the wrong way. Now I have to dedicate d8's out of my collection just for this game. These dice aren't magically solving some problem I've had with every game ever. It's a gimmick I don't appreciate and makes me wary of a game.
But thanks for the links and stuff.
I have played other games that achieve exactly those kinds of results using normal dice. I highly recommend them, because they're extremely awesome games, an example would be Apocalypse World (or one of it's hacks). It achieves the results you're talking about, but it does it with 2d6 for all rolls.
Like, about 90% of game systems beyond d20 has actually degrees of success on their rolls built into their mechanics. One of the marketing slogans I saw for FFG Star Wars looked as if they invented scalling success by themselves. Duh, did they gamed under the rock for the last 25 years? (sorry, but I can't find that page now despite some searching)
If your game requires me to buy specific dice for it, it's going to have to blow me away BEFORE I buy it. I played the recent Warhammer game, it was cool, but not cool enough to spend the money on stuff that wasn't useful for anything but that game.
This new game looks like that investment is lower, but its still a turn off for me. You can tell me that it shouldn't be, but it is. Add in that there are several other versions of Star Wars that I do enjoy and it's a non-seller for me.
Thank you Irontruth - you stated my feeling better than myself.
We do not deny that it might be a fun game but it lacks that something that would convince us in the first place to invest into it more than in other games in the first place.
I have played other games that achieve exactly those kinds of results using normal dice. I highly recommend them, because they're extremely awesome games, an example would be Apocalypse World (or one of it's hacks). It achieves the results you're talking about, but it does it with 2d6 for all rolls.Like, about 90% of game systems beyond d20 has actually degrees of success on their rolls built into their mechanics. One of the marketing slogans I saw for FFG Star Wars looked as if they invented scalling success by themselves. Duh, did they gamed under the rock for the last 25 years? (sorry, but I can't find that page now despite some searching)
It is more than just scaling success. storyteller has that.
WFRP, for example, has 16 different types of Infomation, that can be conveyed by the dice.
The first seven are conveyed by the dice that make up the action.
1. Challenge dice:
This dice tells you something about the difficulty of the action that is being undertaken. Is it hard or easy, or somewhere inbetween.
2. Characteristic dice:
How strong, or weak, or how fast or slow your character is.
3. Expertise dice:
How skilled your character is. Is she an expert swordsperson, or a country bumpkin
4. Stance: Is your character lashing out in a reckless manner, pushing hard against the enemy? Is he fighting in a conservative manner, watching his flanks and only taking safe openings? Or is he somewhere in the middle. If he is reckless, how reckless is he? Same for conservative?
5. Fortune: Is luck on the characters side? Does she have the sun behind her as she strike?, is she defending a choke point so tight her target cant swing a sword properly? Is she just damned lucky.
6. Misfortune: How unlucky is the character. Is their mud under foot? Is the stench of the dead and dying so great, he can't breath, is luck just not with the character?
Then you have the information about the result.
Success:
This element(dice) has resulted in you being closer to achieving your goal.
Rightous success:
This element has increased your chance of success greatly
Challenge:
This element has depleted your chance of success.
Blank:
This element has played no part.
Bane:
there is a negative side effect of the action
Boon:
There is a positive side effect of the action.
Chaos Star:
Something really bad has happened.
Delay:
Something has slowed you down in some way
Exertion:
You have been stressed or tired in some way by the action
Sigmar's commit:
Something great has happened
The interaction of these dice and results tell you different things.
Example One: sucker punch shot, or tough fight
The result of the challenge dice/Characteristic dice canat a glance at tell you if you hit because the monster defended poorly, or because you fought well. While 2success/0challange, is quantatively the same as 4success/2challange, the two results are qualatively different. They convey a different narrative. Maybe 3 successed/4challenge? You fought like a daemon, but still could not pierce their defence.
Example two: skill or talent
Ever wonder if it was the hours of rapier drilling your character went through to hone their skill, or their natural speed and grace that won the day? Well, the answer to that is in the results of characteristic dice and expertise dice. 2 successed on expertise and 0 on characteristic, may be quantatively the same as 2 successes on characteristic and 0 on expertise, but again, the narrative is different.
Example three: Got them, but at what cost?
Sure you might have rolled 4 successes and no challenges, but those banes mean that despite having landed a blow that might kill, your in for a nasty surprise, such as a parting gift of a dagger in the guts.
There are hundreds of possible dice pool combinations, each telling you different stories, and each of those pools has a great many different results, each telling you a different story, if your willing to listen.
Now for the mandatory pointing out this isn't just fanboydom.
I am a major WFRP grognard. I have been a rd edition detractor for a whole range of reasons. I'll be playing 1st/2nd ed WFRP until they put me in the ground, but I doubt I will ever play another game of 3rd. The books are put together poorly, the reliance on cards and other bits make the game unwieldy and I felt a little betrayed by the swift release of 3rd edition. While I don't hate it, I don't really love it either.
However, the dice are pretty much the best bit about the game. The Dice system is pretty much the only reason I haven't sold off my copy on e-bay.
While I haven't played Apocalypse World, I sincerely doubt 2d6 has the same number of possible outcomes as a variable dice pool made up of upto seven different types of dice with between six and ten sides a piece.
The only way it can achieve the same level of detail is assigning narrative control, similar to houses of the blooded, but honestly that is just "sure, you make it up" and while fun, the information is not conveyed by the roll, so much as by the player.
This is from Dungeon World (an Apocalypse World hack):
Hack and Slash
When you attack an enemy in melee, roll+Str. On a 10+ you deal your damage to the enemy and avoid their attack. At your option, you may choose to do +1d6 damage but expose yourself to the enemy's attack. On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy and the enemy makes an attack against you.Volley
When you take aim and shoot at an enemy at range, roll+Dex. On a 10+ you have a clear shot—deal your damage. On a 7–9, choose one (whichever you choose you deal your damage):
• You have to move to get the shot placing you in danger of the GM's choice
• You have to take what you can get: -1d6 damage
• You have to take several shots, reducing your ammo by one.Defy Danger
When you act despite an imminent threat or suffer a calamity, say how you deal with it and roll. If you do it…
•…by powering through, +Str
•…by getting out of the way or acting fast, +Dex
•…by enduring, +Con
•…with quick thinking, +Int
•…through mental fortitude, +Wis
•…using charm and social grace, +Cha
On a 10+, you do what you set out to, the threat doesn't come to bear. On a 7–9, you stumble, hesitate, or flinch: the GM will offer you a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice.
These are just a couple of the moves you can make, plus more special moves, plus class moves as well. Something to note, at the end of Defy Danger, the terms "worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice", even though they aren't capitalized, are actually game terms and they are things the DM can do in response.
On Hack and Slash, it might seem harsh that the enemies can hit you on your attack, but in this game the GM never rolls dice. The only time you get hit is when the GM warns you you're about to get hit and you don't do anything about it, or if you attack and don't fully succeed.
It doesn't have the statistical width and breadth of these new star wars dice, but overall the feel of variability, not just in success and failure, but actual outcomes is quite substantial.
It is a lighter game, it isn't rules intensive. In fact once you know the game you don't actually need the book, since everything you need to reference can be printed up on a couple sheets of paper (including your character sheet).
Variable outcomes do not NEED special dice. ORE based games experiment with it a lot. You roll a pool of d10's, but you're trying to make sets. 3 1's is better than a single 2, but maybe you needed a pair of 4's or higher to achieve a success.
Lastly, marginal successes and failures are easy to narrate without special dice. The fiction of what is happening already tells you what the most likely scenario is when you roll.
I highly, HIGHLY recommend Apocalypse World. Most of the people who I know who have read it, it has at the very least subtly shifted how they think about gaming. Especially read the GM'ing section.
I finally caved and got the book. Looks very interesting so far.
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Well I have some real table game experience with the FFG version of the Star Wars game, and I have to say.... we all LIKED it! I say it in bold, because about half the group was giving negative vibes and the other half was (including me) not all that excited before we even started. No body really b@!$~ed at all about the $30 book, thinking of it more as a collectors item than paying to play test a beta version of the game. I don't have a real problem buying the book, but I know that people have differing opinions about this.
The proprietary dice did take a litle while to get used to. However, once you do, the game moves quickly. The success/advantage system gives a good GM increadible opportunity to tell a story. The new FFG iOS app helps out a ton- $5 that everyone bought without a second thought. You can play with stickers and such, but we didn't.
Character creation is increadibly fast, as well as easy. We all had a blast coming up with cool and then wacky characters. Obligation and Motivation were two of the things we all liked as it added real background to the group, not just some way to get 'free' stuff.
Combat was easier than 40K/WFB for a non-tile/map based game. The initiative system has already made its way into our PF games (PC's can 'shift' around their order from turn to turn depending on the need).
Still, many of the group were dissapointed in no Jedi even though you can make a force sensitive dude. But all in all, we left the table liking the game more than we did entering the game.
Star Wars: The Edge of Darkness gets a hardy thumbs up from our group.
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Call me crazy, but what bugs me about the custom dice is FFG's attempt to treat everyone like meeples who don't do an ounce of critical thinking.
Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that "custom dice" are there to reduce a barrier to entry.
Barrier to what??
There's an entire industry built around manufacturing 'standard' polyhedral dice is every shape and form, and they're available in nearly every comic, game and hobby store in the world.
Don't want to use a d10, d12, dwhatever... there's still the old d6 standby that even the most "non-gamer" personality in the world has sitting around in an old box of Yahtzee or Monopoly.
Ok, so maybe it's not about actually being able to get the dice easily when the game goes, you know, out of print and no one stocks the dice 10 years from now. Maybe they reduce some kind of other barrier to creative descriptions, or reduce GM Fiat, or some other thing, but barrier to entry is not one of them.
I wish FFG would just call it like it is, it's part of an upsell strategy for the iOS app and custom dice, because lets be honest, most people won't suffer the decal option for long.
Star Wars: The Edge of Darkness gets a hardy thumbs up from our group.
That pretty much sums up my group's feelings about it, so far. It runs smooth, fast and elegantly. We all had our misgivings about the custom dice, but even that one guy who had to mention that he didn't like custom dice every ten minutes through the entire five hour session, had to admit that he rather liked how well they worked for the game.
Only had two sessions so far, but the game runs quite well. Custom dice might be an "obnoxious moneygrab", but I doubt the game could have run as well without them.
Still too early to say much about the long-term appeal of course. We'll see.
You know, the more I read about this game. The more I think this might be a very good system to run a Firefly setting game out of more then a Star Wars game.