First, I apologize for the lengthy wall of text below, but I believe it's relevant to the question/discussion that I'd like to talk about.
I'm very intrigued by the Dwarven Stonelord Paladin Archetype and am looking at building one up for a new campaign (carrion crown) that starts up in a few weeks. I'm curious how others would build up this class. I am thinking a melee tank that absorbs the punishment, shrugs off powerful hits and spells with a laugh and stands in front of his friends to protect them with his faithful earth elemental.
I know that a normal paladin or one of the other archetypes would be more "optimal" for the AP, but I want to play the stonelord. My current build idea is focused on grabbing a reach weapon so I grabbed the Dorn-Dergar and figured that nabbing PA right away would help with some extra damage to make it so that enemies would actually go after him. I was thinking about antagonize, but if we are dealing with mindless undead that wouldn't work too well to bring them towards me. I also figure to use my 6 level mercy (the only one I get) to get remove fatigue so that I can use my LoH to heal hit points and the fatigue caused by coming out of the defensive stance then move and go back into the stance.
I'm open to all suggestions as these are my rough draft ideas and my initial thoughts below.
My line of thinking:
1) Go for reach - use my 2-handed Dorn-Dergar with power attack, grab lunge, grab darting viper (to make the weapon none reach as a swift action instead of move action), grab cleaving abilities including the dwarf-specific one (though I'm not sure if you can cleave with this kind of weapon or not...) and maybe whirlwind down the line.
2) Go for defense - getting a nice shield, get full plate ASAP, and a good 1-handed blunt weapon (warhammer or something similar), grab some shield bashing feats, grab combat reflexes and go to down with bashing and AOOs if they close with me.
Stats (rolled) and I got super lucky with the dice:
15 Str
15 Dex
20 Con (18+2 from Dwarf)
11 Int
16 Wis (18+2 from Dwarf)
14 Cha (16-2 from Dwarf)
Feats:
1st - Currently Power Attack
3rd -
4th - Bonus - Channel Earth
5th -
7th -
9th -
11th -
13th -
15th -
17th -
19th -
My Traits:
1st - Subject of Study (Undead) +1 damage vs undead - This is a requirement in our game that we take 1 trait from the campaign.
2nd - Glory of Old - +1 vs Spells/Spell-like abilities/Poison (I know even with a +1 Initiative I won't be going first in my group, so I focus on beefing up the saves more here)
Dwarven Racial Traits:
Swapped out Hardy for Magic Resistant 5+level of SR against spells/spell-like abilities. Not sure if this would be better staying Hardy and combining it with the Glory of Old for +3s on the stuff.
Swapped out Stone Cunning for Rock Stepper - to be able to 5ft step over difficult terrain as I figured this would be better for a tank than someone who tries to spy out hidden doors with the others in the party (I believe we'll have an Elven Bard in the group) being able to do so better.
Ideas? Thoughts? Comments? What would you do differently?
Thanks in advance!
-Balrick
|
Given that the Stonelord gains Defensive Stance as one of his core abilities, I'd probably go with a reach weapon to maximize the effectiveness of your core class feature. Nothing's worse than activating Defensive Stance and watching all your enemies pour past 5 feet away from you :P Make sure you've got armor spikes or a solid secondary weapon in case they push past your primary reach weapon.
Another option would be to consider taking 5 levels of martial artist for the Extreme Endurance ability so you can drop and re-enter your stance in the same round. Plus, that opens the door for your Stonelord to flurry with a Sansetsukon, which gives you Two-handed bonuses to attack and the blocking weapon special ability, which is sweet.
You could do a very standard sword and shield build. It would allow you to tank, and deal some decent damage.
Yeah, the reach weapon was my primary idea and using the special dwarven dorn-dergar is a 2h reach weapon. I can get a feat Dorn-Dergar Master which would allow me to wield it w/ 1 hand and utilize a shield at the same time. This along with darting viper would mean that I take my move action to make it a normal ranged weapon instead of reach and if I'm wielding it with 2 hands and utilize the darting viper feat the change from reach to normal is a swift action.
I don't think I want to dip into other classes, the only multi-class I may consider is the stalwart defender prestige class since a lot of the stonelord's powers stack with it. Good idea though, I'll just make sure to buy potions to drink so that I can remove the fatigued effect especially until level 6 because at that point I get the remove fatigue mercy to go with my Lay on Hands, which would be a pretty nice thing to use in-combat.
You could do a very standard sword and shield build. It would allow you to tank, and deal some decent damage.
Yeah, I've thought of that as well. I'm just trying to get a feel for the feats I'd need to be effective as a tank and some small amount of damage. I know my role isn't going to be like that of a 2h raging barbarian with their burst damage, so this will be a departure for me from someone who deals damage to one that soaks it up and is pretty unkillable.
Another option wold be to consider taking 5 levels of martial artist for the Extreme Endurance ability so you can drop and re-enter your stance in the same round. Plus, that opens the door for your Stonelord to flurry with a Sansetsukon, which gives you Two-handed bonuses to attack and the blocking weapon special ability, which is sweet. [/QUOTENo need for this: you get a mercy at level 6 and should pick fatigue. If you need to move just drop the stance, lay on hands to remove fatigue as a swift action, and then move. Not quite as good as being immune to fatigue, but a whole lot better than 5 otherwise largely wasted monk levels.
|
|
Yeah, the reach weapon was my primary idea and using the special dwarven dorn-dergar is a 2h reach weapon. I can get a feat Dorn-Dergar Master which would allow me to wield it w/ 1 hand and utilize a shield at the same time. This along with darting viper would mean that I take my move action to make it a normal ranged weapon instead of reach and if I'm wielding it with 2 hands and utilize the darting viper feat the change from reach to normal is a swift action.
I don't think I want to dip into other classes, the only multi-class I may consider is the stalwart defender prestige class since a lot of the stonelord's powers stack with it. Good idea though, I'll just make sure to buy potions to drink so that I can remove the fatigued effect especially until level 6 because at that point I get the remove fatigue mercy to go with my Lay on Hands, which would be a pretty nice thing to use in-combat.
I'll be honest, the picture in my head of an immovable dwarf paladin whirling a tri-staff around his body and nailing someone with a Stunning Fist so his pet elemental could sit on them while he dealt with their friends heavily influenced my suggestion of Martial Artist.
Realistically, once the glow of that image faded a bit, the Fatigue Mercy really is the better and more mechanically sound option.
Sigh.....
I've just never played a character quite like this before so I'm trying to study up on it. I like to have it planned out ahead of time so that my vision fits what he is able to do in-game.
I agree with @Serum and I probably should go the route where i have reach for sure since with the dorn-dergar and lunge i'd have a 15ft reach, then grab darting viper and if they close within threat I can (as a swift action) make it a non-reach weapon and still use it very effectively. Enlarge is also a great idea since then I'd have up to a 20ft reach w/ that weapon when lunging.
I think I'll have to focus on the armor and magical items to up my AC even more.
|
Enlarge + Lunge would make your reach 25ft, actually (possibly 30).
Becoming Large doesn't increase your reach by 5ft, it doubles your reach. When combined with lunge, you have a 10ft dead-zone and a 15 ft hit-zone outside of the dead-zone. If using Dorn-Derger Master, your shield allows you to make AoOs in the 10ft dead-zone, and if you don't want to use a move action to reduce the reach of the Dorn-Derger, make full attacks with it in the dead-zone.
Check out the dwarven boulder helmet. That way you can stay with reach and still makes attacks close.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still would be good, if you go with 16 Dex or more.
You also wrote something wrong on your rolled stats.
"16 Wis (18+2 from Dwarf)" EIther you rolled a 16, 18, or 14, and Your wis is 16, 18, or 20. BUt at the end of the day, that's not necessarily needed. Paladin gets a good will save and spells still key off Cha, as do LoH.
So if you rolled 18, 18, 16,15,15,11 i'd say put them
16
18
15 (+2) = 17
11
15 (+2) = 17
18 (-2) = 16
Your top stats are Dex for AoO's and Cha for LoH & Spells. Con and Wis are boosted by your race. I'd honestly suggest taking the 16 str as opposed to 15, cause 1 hp vs doing 1 damage may e more useful at level, then take a stat bump at level 4 for 4 more HP, as opposed to the Str boost at Lv 4.
Feats: there' a few issues. Stationary tank wants lots of AoOs so Combat Reflexes rather necessary. I'd say even more so than PA, in that one lets you hit for 3 more damage. The other gives you three more attacks with a reach weapon. 16 str, buffs, and stone strike would make you a primary target anyway, and even if the enemy tries to avoid you, you have reach enough to get those hits in as they try to avoid you.
1: Combat Reflexes
3: TWF (Pre-rec for)
5: Dorn-Dergar Master (1-hand reach weapon with shield)
7: Imp Shield Bash (as opposed to darting viper. You have reach and a shield-bash)
9: Shield Slam (bash the enemy into DD reach range and Pre-rec for)
11: Shield Master (heavy bashing shield is now a quite respectable weapon)
Next feats: Stand-still, Power Attack, Darting Viper (why not), shield focus, combat patrol, bodyguard, In Harm's Way are all decent feats for this build. May want Imp TWF as well
While your damage suffers somewhat, you get so many attacks that you are certianly a target, and
@Serum - wow, didn't realize that with the reach, good point.
@Deadmanwalking - Good idea, I'll do that, then it would make me hit harder too.
@SuperUberGeek - I'll look into that as well. I think there's also a feat that adds to that kind of damage with a helmet, just can't remember the name off the top of my head.
@Waiph - Oops, the Wis was 14 + 2 = 16, I fat-fingered it somehow and didn't read it over again.
Stonelord gets no spells except his LOH actually so I think going lower w/ the CHA is probably a really good idea.
Stats Rolled: 15/15/18/11/14/16
So I could go...
16 Str - +1 atk/dmg than what I had
18 Dex - I like that this would up my AoOs, my AC, and my reflex saves good ideas here!
17 Con (15+2) - Bump @ 4th Level for 18, a few less hit points, but I'll be hit less often so a good trade of and my fort is good as it is.
11 Int - Stays the same, my dump stat basically
16 Wis (14+2) - Stays the same, helps with my Will saves
13 Cha (15-2) - Lowered by 1, so not a big difference in the skills like Dip/Bluff/Sense motive and only LoH is dependent on it.
I like the build you posted, though I'm not sure about the combat patrol if I am in a defensive stance and can't actually move w/o going out of it. The other thing is the question of the shield bashing and bull-rushing, if I'm in the stance I don't think I can actually bull-rush.
I think I like the idea of Imp TWF to fight w/ the shield and the dorn-dergar though. So that is something that I need to really think on.
@Serum - I was thinking of it only being part of a charge, you are of course correct. That makes the shield bashing w/ the bull-rush pretty nice.
|
Magic Resistant is not the trait I would advise you to take. 5+your level is not very high spell resistance, and your enemies are not very likely to fail that check (especially if your DM likes to give you single enemies that are a few levels above you instead of an equal group of equal HD foes).
However, while you're not very likely to notice a 25% chance of resisting a spell from an enemy at the table (at least not very often), you'll definitely notice it from your allied casters. Every time a caster would want to buff you in combat, they'd have a 25% chance of failure (unless you voluntarily lowered your spell resistance, but if you did that, you would be sacrificing the value of the trait in combat which is the only place it helps you and therefore you defeat the purpose of switching it in the first place).
Instead, stick with Hardy, and take the Steel Soul racial feat. It increases the bonus Hardy grants to +4. Stacking it with Glory of Old results in a +5 bonus to saves vs spells and SLAs (and you keep your +3 racial bonus to saves against poison), which will basically equate to you getting to keep Divine Grace.
Extra Lay on Hands is a very nice use of a feat for paladins. You especially, since your animal companion is probably the only Small creature in the game with a Dexterity score that is less than 10.
@NeoSeraphi - I was just looking over the Magic Resistant again last night and contemplating its usefulness. You bring up a good point, I will probably go back to Hardy. Not sure about taking Steel Soul though as I feel I may be feat strapped very quickly with this character. The only thing I can think to do is maybe dip a level or two into fighter at the beginning. Not sure if I want to do that though as I'd like to play it straight up as a stonelord.
As far as an extra LoH, it puts me in the same situation with being feat starved. I'm still working it out to figure out which direction I want to go with him whether using a shield and twf with it and the dorn-dergar or just using the dorn-derger and a helmet to head-butt things if they close with me.
|
|
I would switch out your Dex and your STR. Dwarves take no penalty from medium and heavy armors, which your paladin should avail himself of. Especially if he's regularly going to be moving not at all. Your AC will be a part of your defensive stance/armor/shield, and your dexterity won't matter nearly as much as massive damage with PA and a high to hit.
TWF and Dorn Degars are expensive in terms of feat expenditures. Be sure to budget appropriately for each.
@StrangePackage - You are saying to lower Dex to 16 and up Str to 18?
As long as I have a light enough armor I can take full advantage of the 18 Dex in my current incarnation with better Reflex saves, more AOOs, higher AC, and using a shield as a weapon to bash with and my dorn-dergar in my main hand as 1-handed.
I'm not sure if upping Str will help me much since I probably won't be hitting very hard as it is so I'm not even sure if I'll be taking Power Attack at this point.
I have to think on this a bit more!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Upon further thought and seeing SP's thoughts, having the 16 for Dex still gives 3 AoO's aand an 18 str boosts hit and damage by 1, and in the circumstances when you do want damage, you can loose the shield, and 2-hand the Dorn-Durgar and deal an extra 2 damage 1.5(+3str)=4 damage, but 1.5(+4str)=6 damage. SO it will likely be more useful at low levels.
And going with Mythral Full Plate gives you +12 AC and you get to take full advantage of his +3 dex. Hurts his Reflex a bit and costs an AoO, but 4 is pretty respectable.
Just keep in mind, with a low STR and no power attack and a one handed weapon, and defensive stance keeping you in place, they may just go around you and kill you last if you are not a threat.
@Waiph - Good points, I'm with you on them. I've changed his Str to 18 and his Dex to 16, at some point if I wanted to work on the higher TWF feats I could add to Dex a bit more to qualify, but I'm thinking right now it's all about the 2-handing the Dorn-Dergar.
A couple of things I'm contemplating:
1) I'm wondering if I should grab Power Attack (level 3 feat) with this build so that I can hit harder at the beginning, then start moving towards the shield bashing and more defense/twf.
2) Or forgoing the shield route all together, using the dorn-dergar w/ 2 hands, grabbing the Darting Viper feat later, grabbing shield of swings so that I can up my AC by +4 while in a defensive stance, as the dorg-dergar is a 2h weapon and would qualify for this feat.
Basically going:
Level 1 - Power Attack
Level 3 - Shield of Swings
Level 5 - Combat Reflexes
Level 7 - Lunge
Level 9 - Darting Viper
Level 11 -
3) Possibly first 2 levels going with a fighter to gain the bonus feats, then jumping into the Stonelord for the last 14+levels (as we are doing the CC AP it should end around level 16 or so). This would give me 4 feats at 3rd level (2 fighter 1st, 1 fighter 2nd, and 1 stonelord 1st). The problem with this is the delaying of my stonelord powers.
I am starting to get a better feel for it, just want to build a competent character that will be able to take the hits.