sin points,
can you post a bit about them, since I did not know they exist.
sin points,
can you post a bit about them, since I did not know they exist.
they're an added appendix in the rotrl anniversary edition.
I keep them hidden from my players. Otherwise, (at least with my players) I'd be too worried about them metagaming their moral choices to balance or tip the scales one way or the other. As it stands they don't even know this mechanic exists let alone that I'm tracking it. I find the points have so far added up in quite an organic fashion. At least, that's my experience.
they're an added appendix in the rotrl anniversary edition.sin points,
can you post a bit about them, since I did not know they exist.
don't have the book,
can you give details?| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Basically, it's a way to track the behaviors of PCs. If they perform a sinful or virtuous action, you mark down a point in that category. If they already have points in a sin and would receive a point in the corresponding virtue, you instead remove a sin mark (and vice versa).
I made my own criteria, based mostly on the vice/virtue system from World of Darkness, in lieu of the one in the book.
Envy: Gaining something important from a rival or harming that rival's well-being (PC must have a grudge against that rival).
Gluttony: Indulging in an addiction or appetite at some risk to self or a loved one.
Greed: Gaining something at the expense of another, at some potential risk.
Lust: Satisfying a lust or compulsion in a way that victimizes another.
Pride: Exerting wants (not needs) over others at potential risk to self.
Sloth: Avoiding a difficult task but achieving the goal nonetheless.
Wrath: Unleashing anger in a situation where doing so is dangerous and unwarranted or inappropriate.
Charity: Helping another without expectations.
Temperance: Resisting the temptation to indulge in an excess.
Generosity: Donations without prompting.
Love: Refusing to let others give in to despair.
Humility: Turning down an earned reward for the greater good.
Zeal: Doing the right thing at risk of personal loss or setback.
Kindess: Letting go of justified anger.
Sins are alphabetical, Virtues are in order of corresponding Sin.
I'd love to take this a step further and have mechanical implications beyond those in the RotRL AP.
they're an added appendix in the rotrl anniversary edition.sin points,
can you post a bit about them, since I did not know they exist.don't have the book,
can you give details?
Loosely summarized, in the context of the rotrl adventure itself, they are a checklist for each PC used to determine when/if they have bonuses/penalties in different wings of Runeforge (book 5).
Each time a PC acts in a way that strikes
you as particularly sinful or virtuous, place a mark
in the appropriate box on that character’s line. If a
character commits a sin but already has marks in that
sin’s corresponding virtue box, instead simply erase
one of the marks in the virtue box (and vice versa). At
any one time, only one of the two boxes should have
marks in it
A character is considered sinful whenever she has 5
or more marks (sometimes referred to as “sin points”)
in a particular sin. Likewise, a character is considered
virtuous whenever she has 5 or more marks in a
particular virtue.
Does that help?
yes that helps
The article also lists the 7 virtues and sins and gives a few examples of what would qualify for each.
sweet,
think I should pick up the book.
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Hey,
as another guy who dosen't own the book (yet), I have a question about Sin Points: what impact do they have on the game? I'm talking mechanics here, actual occasions when if I have X virtue or sin points a result of a roll would be changed - or maybe the changes are in how NPCs react to the PCs?
Very technically, the sin points only come into play in the 5th act of the Adventure Path, in an area called Runeforge - and only the highest Sin or Virtue matters (as long there are at least 5 points in that Sin/Virtue).
I've been looking for ways to expand that so the effect is more prevalent throughout the AP and perhaps beyond it, much as I've adopted the Relationship rules from Jade Regent and Kingdom Building from Kingmaker.
Creative Director
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Keep in mind that if you DO keep the PCs appraised of their sin point (or virtue point) totals, that's a great way to keep them on their toes regarding WHY you're keeping track of those points. It can also help to reward or guide the players if you want, in the same way that telling them they gain XP for doing story-based things and not just fighting things helps them to want to roleplay more.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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One thing I did was that near the very beginning of my campaign (about 1/2 way through the first adventure) I had my players *themselves* decide what their characters' sins were!
I bribed them with 50 XP each to tell me what their character's Vice (sin) and Virtue were. Then I gave them another 50XP if they would write a short story (at least one page) illustrating both of them.
All five of my players took me up on the offer, and it was a great exercise from the standpoint of developing the characters. There was only one person whose sin had changed by the time of the fifth book (from Sloth to Gluttony), and she herself brought up the subject as soon as she picked up on the fact that this would be a 7 sins-themed dungeon.
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I did not tell the players that I was tracking their sins. When they reached Runeforge, I used the surging sin-magic to create “flashbacks” to their characters less than benevolent actions. This served as a great device to remind the players how far they had come over the three years of our campaign, and it gave them fresh reminders of their character's habits, which made roleplaying the surging emotions easier.
This folded nicely into the effects caused by the Runeforged weapons, and the Prideful character in our group has become almost intolerable now that he has a Domineering Runeforged weapon. It has all made for great flavor as we wind up the final approach the Mhar Massif.
Oooh, I like the flashbacks idea. Rubbing the oh-so-salty guilt into old wounds. It may not work for every party but it'll definitely work for mine. Consider this borrowed.
Cheers,
Tony
I'm going to inform my players at the beginning (haven't started the module/path yet), to encourage role-play (which gets neglected around our tables). So they will be informed, something of the form "hey, I will be tracking the decision you make, and they will have some effect at some point in the game, so make your choices wisely.", but no more information than that. I also like Ayronis's idea above, and I think I may steal it *yoink*.
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Basically, it's a way to track the behaviors of PCs. If they perform a sinful or virtuous action, you mark down a point in that category. If they already have points in a sin and would receive a point in the corresponding virtue, you instead remove a sin mark (and vice versa).
I made my own criteria, based mostly on the vice/virtue system from World of Darkness, in lieu of the one in the book.
Envy: Gaining something important from a rival or harming that rival's well-being (PC must have a grudge against that rival).
Gluttony: Indulging in an addiction or appetite at some risk to self or a loved one.
Greed: Gaining something at the expense of another, at some potential risk.
Lust: Satisfying a lust or compulsion in a way that victimizes another.
Pride: Exerting wants (not needs) over others at potential risk to self.
Sloth: Avoiding a difficult task but achieving the goal nonetheless.
Wrath: Unleashing anger in a situation where doing so is dangerous and unwarranted or inappropriate.Charity: Helping another without expectations.
Temperance: Resisting the temptation to indulge in an excess.
Generosity: Donations without prompting.
Love: Refusing to let others give in to despair.
Humility: Turning down an earned reward for the greater good.
Zeal: Doing the right thing at risk of personal loss or setback.
Kindess: Letting go of justified anger.Sins are alphabetical, Virtues are in order of corresponding Sin.
I'd love to take this a step further and have mechanical implications beyond those in the RotRL AP.
Did you ever come up with consequences other than what is in the AP?
Player: "I'm going to steal that guy's money while he's sleeping".
Me: "Ok". *Watching the player as I grab my notepad, dramatically flip it open, and make a mark.*
Player: "What was that"?
Me:"Oh. That? Oh, I wouldn't worry about that..." *snaps the notebook shut.*
I did the exact same thing. They all started to freak out. Oh, it's so easy to freak out players >.<
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I've been keeping a running total in my head on what everyone's sins would be. The elven fighter's easy - she's easily the one quickest to anger and the most bloodthirsty. Wrath for sure. The bard was probably a lock for Lust, since he started working at the Pixie's Kitten almost immediately as a tout, but his player had to drop out. The Shoanti inquisitor was also heading towards Lust, but his late nights means he sleeps in quite a lot, so Sloth for sure. The party wizard was avoiding Pride for awhile, despite being Kendra's nephew, but I think his interest in the Runewell will push him towards Pride. Jury's still out on him, though.
The cleric/paladin of Ragathiel's a strange one. He's a lot more redemptive than you'd expect a priest of Ragathiel to be, so Wrath doesn't apply to him. He's chaste, so no Lust. Doesn't really imbibe or engorge himself, so Gluttony's out. He doesn't act very boastful, so not Pride. He's charitable, so no Greed. He doesn't seem very covetous, so no Envy. He doesn't seem particularly slow to action, which leaves out Sloth. He's definitely the most virtuous of the five, and I might actually look at giving him Virtue points instead of Sin points.
The gnome rogue's also fairly virtuous. His two big storylines thus far have been courting the daughter of Sandpoint cartographer and trying to save his uncle's floundering locksmithy. I might go the same route with him.
None of them have any idea that their actions are being watched, even at this early stage. As much as I enjoy players freaking out about what a DM's doing, I find they'll have much more natural reactions if they don't know they're being observed.
The players in my group know. Amusingly, before they knew they had mostly accumulated Virtue points instead of Sin (one player was Sinful but really it is part and parcel of his character as a whole - drinking, gambling, whoring... in fact, when he found out that 200 people in Turtleback Ferry were marked with the Sihedron, he said "You guys really need a theater! Seriously! There's more to life than drinking, gambling and whoring... oh gods, what did I just say?!? I need to go lie down...").
BTW, there's a very easy way to get everyone in Turtleback Ferry to reveal their marks. Just report "yeah, some psycho in Magnimar and Sandpoint was marking people with this and killing them off..." and next thing you know, people are begging the priests to cut the mark out of them and then cast a cure spell (or channel positive energy). ;) (Mind you, this happened after one character built a Wand of Erase only to have it go through all its charges in one day. At that point they said "okay, this is fun and all but we need to get to the Fort and check it out. You'll have to find another way...")
Despite knowing, it hasn't altered their behaviors at all. And while I suspect half the group will have Virtue Points instead of Sin, it still works. ^_^
I'm thinking maybe some dream sequences for folks attuned to one sin. Seeing the appropriate Runelord kicking ass with their various magics and such. Might be a nice way to foreshadow sin points without just telling players about them.