RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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But let's say you say "My Taldan has red hair."
Then your Taldan has died their hair red, and is not a natural red-head.
Or perhaps she is really Chelaxian and grew-up in a Taldan environment - As the ethnicity presented in the ISWG also represent cultures. Similarly a Taldan who grew up with a Mwgandi tribe far from civilization would be culturally Garundi.
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Lord Twitchiopolis,
I completely understand where you are coming from. I am glad that you have the responsibility as a GM to come on these boards and ask when you have a question about PFS play. However, we have given you the answer...reskinning is NOT allowed. Giving racial feats for a boon-only race is NOT allowed. You may ask why, but in the end, it comes down to: because the campaign has decided that those rulings are in the best interest of PFS. No amount of asking why is going to change the answer. Mike and Mark have already answered this question.
If you really want an answer why these are not allowed, it's because it results in endless discussions like this one. And there must be a line drawn somewhere, and it will come down on the side of conservatism to prevent abuse.
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Lord Twitchiopolis,
I completely understand where you are coming from. I am glad that you have the responsibility as a GM to come on these boards and ask when you have a question about PFS play. However, we have given you the answer...reskinning is NOT allowed. Giving racial feats for a boon-only race is NOT allowed. You may ask why, but in the end, it comes down to: because the campaign has decided that those rulings are in the best interest of PFS. No amount of asking why is going to change the answer. Mike and Mark have already answered this question.
If you really want an answer why these are not allowed, it's because it results in endless discussions like this one. And there must be a line drawn somewhere, and it will come down on the side of conservatism to prevent abuse.
I understand that reskinning is not allowed. But where is the line between reskin and description? This is my main question. At what length, in inches or centimeters, does a short sword become a longsword?
Also, can you please refer me to where Mike and Mark comment on the Feat Racial Heritage into boon races. I understand that the boon races feats are not allowed, but I haven't seen anything on Racial Heritage specifically.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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If you took a shortsword and wanted it to be the size of a longsword, but didn't want it to be a longsword, then it would be a Large Shortsword which is still mechanically different than a longsword.
If you want your Katana to look Osirion, that's fine. Go with the suggestion of Osirion glyphs on the hilt, or an Osirion motif on it's sheath - but you cannot claim it to look like a Kopesh because a Kopesh has different mechanics. Same thing from the other side: if you took a kopesh and made it look oriental in aesthetics, it would still be a kopesh, readily identified as one, and never called a katana except by those who really, really do not understand blades.
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If you took a shortsword and wanted it to be the size of a longsword, but didn't want it to be a longsword, then it would be a Large Shortsword which is still mechanically different than a longsword.
If you want your Katana to look Osirion, that's fine. Go with the suggestion of Osirion glyphs on the hilt, or an Osirion motif on it's sheath - but you cannot claim it to look like a Kopesh because a Kopesh has different mechanics. Same thing from the other side: if you took a kopesh and made it look oriental in aesthetics, it would still be a kopesh, readily identified as one, and never called a katana except by those who really, really do not understand blades.
Again, it looks like a katana. Nonone would ever mistake it for a khopesh unless they were ill informed. But the curve of the blade, the wrap of the handle, the guard at the hilt all harken back to the Osirioni khopesh. It is a katana. I call it a katana.
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Again, i'm not trying to cause problems. I just want to understand where these lines are, and why they are where they are.
Why does a short sword have to be defined in exact centimeters?
Its a short sword. You can say its a particularly long, or wide short sword if you want. As long as it is still a short sword. Just don't say its exactly x feet long.
And as for Katana's... I would wager that the Japanese would argue that yes, all Katana's are exactly the same look (probably not exactly the same, dependent on how masterful the craftsman was, but that goes to masterwork quality or not). Because that's what a Katana is. If it doesn't look like a Katana, then it isn't a Katana, it is some other sword-like weapon.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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For a Katana to look even remotely like a kopesh (just googled images to refresh my memory) the blade would need to warped in such a way that it no longer mechanically functions as a katana anymore.
You may see a reskining on the story side of things in PFS, but never on the player side unless a chronicle sheet gives you access to it. For example, "The Harrowing" gives you access to a broken longsword that functions as a +2 shortsword, while simultaneously NOT giving you access to the "Glamored to look like a bouquet of roses" aspect of a +2 scimitar.
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Again, i'm not trying to cause problems. I just want to understand where these lines are, and why they are where they are.And as for Katana's... I would wager that the Japanese would argue that yes, all Katana's are exactly the same look (probably not exactly the same, dependent on how masterful the craftsman was, but that goes to masterwork quality or not). Because that's what a Katana is. If it doesn't look like a Katana, then it isn't a Katana, it is some other sword-like weapon.
Sadly, this is argueable too. Historically, the length of a katana is varied, and the exact length between a wakizashi and katana is subject to opinion. Miyamoto Musashi makes mention of this in The Five Rings (not to be confused with L5R).
Why does a short sword have to be defined in exact centimeters?
Its a short sword. You can say its a particularly long, or wide short sword if you want. As long as it is still a short sword. Just don't say its exactly x feet long.
Because this is the defining feature of a shortsword verses a longsword descriptively. Functionally, in gameplay, the difference is damage dice and damage types.
It's also important as new resources better define specific weapon. Prior to UC, a character wielding a gladius was wielding a short sword. Now those are defined as seperate weapons.
Again, i'm not trying to cause problems. I just want to understand where these lines are, and why they are where they are.
Bold mine.
In order to understand the why you have to have been here for the great Pig debacle of 2011.
I'm sure someone can link one of the many threads about it.
The best way to sum it up is this (IMO)
"Don't reskin, seriously, just don't, yes it seems harmless, yes YOU are a good guy and not a cheesemongering jackass, but not everone is, please for the love of god, just don't do it, for the love of god think of the pigs....."
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I actually say this because the Osirioni Samuraii was designed off of a Reaper mini, the Black Legionaire. If you look that one up, you'll see what I mean. His sword is curved, as a katana, but has a notch in the back that is reminiscent to the curved edge of the khopesh.
Other than plopping the mini down on the table, how do you describe that?
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Like Thefurmonger said, check out the thread about The Great Pig Debacle of 2011.
Once you're done reading that, if you think your concerns haven't been addressed or you have some radical new take on the issue, then please feel free to post it here.
The rest of us are still suffering PTSD from the last reskinning incident.
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and at least one 16th-Century Scottish noble owned a katana.Connor MacLeod, is that you? ;-)
There can be only on... err Duncan? is that you?
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To sum it all up:
1. Reskinning is not allowed. No Pig/dogs, no cleaver/axes. I understand this.
2. Boon race feats are not allowed to other races even with Racial Heritage. I understand this.
The areas I'm still foggy on are the following:
1.Where does description transfer over to reskinning? Description is allowed and encouraged, reskinning, again, is not.
What are the limitations of description?
2.In PFS, officially, what are the limitations of the feat Racial Heritage?
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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I actually say this because the Osirioni Samuraii was designed off of a Reaper mini, the Black Legionaire. If you look that one up, you'll see what I mean. His sword is curved, as a katana, but has a notch in the back that is reminiscent to the curved edge of the khopesh.
I'd call that one a type of heavy scimitar. It doesn't really look like a khopesh to me.
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I actually say this because the Osirioni Samuraii was designed off of a Reaper mini, the Black Legionaire. If you look that one up, you'll see what I mean. His sword is curved, as a katana, but has a notch in the back that is reminiscent to the curved edge of the khopesh.I'd call that one a type of heavy scimitar. It doesn't really look like a khopesh to me.
Not to mention every Katana I've personally looked at had plenty of space for your second hand to sit underneath your primary, it's way too "broad?" for a katana. I'd say most likely that's a Scimitar, or single edged "longsword" since longswords historically are just "long" swords.
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I actually say this because the Osirioni Samuraii was designed off of a Reaper mini, the Black Legionaire. If you look that one up, you'll see what I mean. His sword is curved, as a katana, but has a notch in the back that is reminiscent to the curved edge of the khopesh.I'd call that one a type of heavy scimitar. It doesn't really look like a khopesh to me.
Point being that it's one of those areas up to debate. I mean, look at all the "scimitars" depicted in Pathfinder art. No two are the same. Well, except the two in the Qadira faction symbol...
Anyways, a number of those could be argued to be other types of swords (temple swords, khopeshs, cutlasses, ect.)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually say this because the Osirioni Samuraii was designed off of a Reaper mini, the Black Legionaire. If you look that one up, you'll see what I mean. His sword is curved, as a katana, but has a notch in the back that is reminiscent to the curved edge of the khopesh.
Other than plopping the mini down on the table, how do you describe that?
As you may have noticed the racial heritage/treesinger thread was started by me.
I mention this so you know that on a lot of this I am on your side.
however in anwser to the mini question there are 2 anwsers.
1. most of us have seen players use a d20 as how they represent a barbarian, personally I have adventured with a skittle sorcerer once. so really, what the mini looks like is not a huge deal. this is not WYSIWYG.
2. were it me, I would do this.
Me, ploping down the mini you mentioned "Ok, this is my guy as you can see he is awesome, and is wielding a Katana.
Jackass other player "Um, dude, I'm fairly sure that is not a katana, that looks more like a Kopesh"
Me "........ No, it's a katana"
JOP "Are you sure, when i studied ancient swords for 4 years there were no katanas that looked like that"
Me "look dude, its a katana" Turn to Judge.. "So anyway, you were saying?"
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Alrighty, to put a nail in this until Mike or Mark (the Devs have the same names as my oldest two cousins...huh) puts me strait:
1. No Reskinning A to look like B. No pig/dogs, no cleaver/axes, ect ect.
2.Boon race feats are not available to those with Racial Heritage.
3. As far as description shy of reskinning; There is no good answer here. Too arguable. What defines a longsword, shortsword, gladius, scimitar ect is all open to debate. Best solution? Case by case? Not ideal, but the best we got.
4. Racial Heritage for races outside of core. No consensus. By raw they are legal, some argue they are not, but there is no word from the devs one way or the other. Until Mike or Mark gets back to me on this, I'm personally going to allow my local PFS player his technically legal feat. If they say otherwise, I will deal with it accordingly. He has no plans on attending any cons, so for now the issue is moot.
I'd like to thank all of you for your insight, whither or not I agree with you. I'd like to thank everyone who pointed me to an official response for helping me understand the rulings. I appologize for any bad feelings that I may have stirred up in the process. I'll deal with any issues I caused amongst my players as a responsible DM should, and accept any consequences that may result from my actions.
I look forward to continued Pathfinder Society play, both as a DM and a player, and to continuing to grow in both regards.
Thank you all.
Lord Twitchiopolis
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By the "Rules As Written", the only things that you could conceivably "reskin" without any problems would if there was a sidebar mentioning something as being allowed to be reskinned.
One such example would be a longbow to a Daikyu, a shortbow to a Hankyu, and longsword to a Hwandudaedo because of the sidebar listed on page 134 of Ultimate Combat or on page 3 of Adventurer's Armory with Greatsword to a Zweihander/Claymore.
And even then, you would still have to be able to provide the actual products as a citation to the GM in question, since they aren't part of the core assumption for players but are considered part of the additional resources.
Note: Edited for clarification.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I think this would be one of the instances where "expect table variation" is the watch-word. There is no way that the campaign coordinators are going to be able to list *exactly* which descriptions are descriptions, and which cross the line into re-skins.
Personally, at my table, I'd have no problems with a Human who has foxlike ears. As long as the rules say he's human, and everyone *knows* that he's Human, I really don't see any issue with playing it that way. Some other GMs might feel differently, and think that such a thing should not be allowed. Check with your GM before the game if you're unsure.
Finally, if you *do* want to try something like this, don't be a jerk and try to game the system. For example, if that "Kitsune-blooded" human with foxy ears tried to get me to give him a Perception bonus because of them, then I'd throw it right out. Flavor is one thing; mechanics are another. As long as the two don't cross paths, I'm inclined to be generous.
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Oversized khopesh (as a katana and readily identified as such)
Twitchopolis ... I think that the weapon you may be looking for - or at least similar in nature - is the Osirion Khopesh. Please note, I am not referring to a khopesh that is generally used in Osirion. In the old (and no longer legal) Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, there was a larger sized khopesh that was two-handed.
WEAPONS: Martial Weapons - Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Osirian Khopesh - Cost:20gp, Dmg(S):1d8, Dmg(M):1d10, Critical:19–20/x2, Weight:8lb, Type:Slashing
The Osirian khopesh begins as a straight blade extending 2 feet from its hilt. It then extends a further 2 feet in a curved crescent, enabling the weapon to be used for trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the khopesh to avoid being tripped.
There are many examples in history of khopeshes being both big and little. Many were wieldable in one hand while carrying a small shield, while others were in excess of four feet. I totally understand your wanting a larger one. I have an Osirion Living Monolith (fighter prestige class), named Qa'Pelos the Risen, that uses one. Unfortunately, I have been since using it since "way back when" it was legal to buy, which makes it grandfathered in. Short of it being republished in Ultimate Equipment (which I gather it's not), or errated by campaign management, I think that the weapon that you're looking for isn't going to be available ...
... and, sadly, since there are rules for a weapon that is essentially what you're looking for, you can't reskin another weapon to be that. It sucks. Royally. I can't for the life of me figure out why the weapon hasn't been republished. It means that if mine is ever lost, I will never be able to get a new one, and if mine is ever broken, I have to pay for Make Whole rather than just paying the chump change for another one.Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
It is strange to me, however, that both are 20g and weigh 8lbs, but, the one in the APG is Exotic and does a d8, while the Campaign Setting version is Martial and does a d10.
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w.- Thanks for the heads up on the Osirioni Khopesh. I think I'll stick to just leaving the khopesh influence out of my description of my katana, though.
Todd- Furmonger beat you to it a long while ago. It still doesn't give an official ruling on taking racial heritage for a non-core race though. Honestly, at this point the character can afford a hat of disguise, so it's not that big of a deal as far as asthetics go, but the player did desire to actually have kitsune blood. Having the feat, as written at this moment, is legal, and honestly it does him more harm than good burning a feat on fluff, but it could hypothetically come up in the future. Then again, it wouldn't be any different than a fey blooded sorcerer in Palid Plague.
Adam- a point that I can to myself. The fact of the matter is that the definitions are loose, and 99.9% of the time it will not matter. .5% of the time the player will be breaking the rules and will need to change. The other .5% is this muddy gray area that should be taken in a case by case basis.
So as the starter of this thread, I am totally satisfied with the answers I've recieved, other than if Racial Heritage can be taken for non-core races in PFS. That's all we need an official ruling for.
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I know that Ryan Bolduan had an alchemist with a cleaver, but I don’t recall what stats he was using.
Actually, I had a cleric with ranks in profession(cook) and I used the trait "rough and ready" to permit me to use tools of my trade as weapons. My meat cleaver was not a weapon per se (as there is no cleaver weapon available) but rather an improvised weapon.
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Actually, I had a cleric with ranks in profession(cook) and I used the trait "rough and ready" to permit me to use tools of my trade as weapons. My meat cleaver was not a weapon per se (as there is no cleaver weapon available) but rather an improvised weapon.
I know that Ryan Bolduan had an alchemist with a cleaver, but I don’t recall what stats he was using.
Ah, ok. That explains that! So as a light, one-handed weapon, it was doing what? d4 or d6 damage then?
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Like Thefurmonger said, check out the thread about The Great Pig Debacle of 2011.
Once you're done reading that, if you think your concerns haven't been addressed or you have some radical new take on the issue, then please feel free to post it here.
The rest of us are still suffering PTSD from the last reskinning incident.
All your going to get out of that thread is this.
Certain people take a great deal of delite in destroying other peoples character concepts. Those people won.
The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view. (Heavens forbid I show up with my PFS legal gnome socerer riding a giant frog or a Roc.)
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The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view.
Have you ever played in Frostfur Captives? The mechanical benefit of "being able to bring your explicitly-barred animal companion and not fail the mission" is a pretty big benefit. It's a very rare case, but it IS a benefit. Yes, it could have been worked around. Hindsight is 20/20, though.
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The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view.Have you ever played in Frostfur Captives? The mechanical benefit of "being able to bring your explicitly-barred animal companion and not fail the mission" is a pretty big benefit. It's a very rare case, but it IS a benefit. Yes, it could have been worked around. Hindsight is 20/20, though.
"Oh.. and in other news. The goblins sent a singing telegram. You may want to leave the pet home."
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like Thefurmonger said, check out the thread about The Great Pig Debacle of 2011.
Once you're done reading that, if you think your concerns haven't been addressed or you have some radical new take on the issue, then please feel free to post it here.
The rest of us are still suffering PTSD from the last reskinning incident.
All your going to get out of that thread is this.
Certain people take a great deal of delite in destroying other peoples character concepts. Those people won.
The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view. (Heavens forbid I show up with my PFS legal gnome socerer riding a giant frog or a Roc.)
the GM did not throw a fit, he merely expected the players to adhere to the guidelines w/in society play. the players (tho within their rights) decided to get up and walk away from the table.
In this specific scenario, it was stated to not bring mounts as they were not safe around the captives (or whatever I'm not with the scenario right in front of me). the players thought that because the one was riding a "pig" not a dog that it was ok. Regardless of the "costume" it was wearing it was a dog and couldn't be brought along on the scenario -- which in turn kills a cavalier character to be w/out it's mount.
It's not that any of us in that thread were hellbent on destorying another players fun, however, it was a discussion on the rules and reskinning as an issue.
Please watch the attitude when commenting on issues that are highly volitle as it doesn't help the situation whatsoever.
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Hey, I've tried to put this thread down a couple times now (See above), but have failed. If I could axe the entire thing now, I would.
I've gotten my answers and am content, if not overly-pleased.
The one lingering question I have dedicated another thread to as it is another rules question entirely that I would like Mike or Mark to answer.
All said and done, the rules are as they are, and while I may not agree with them, they were significantly justified by their supporters, and I'll play by them.
To quote myself...
1. No Reskinning A to look like B. No pig/dogs, no cleaver/axes, ect ect.
2.Boon race feats are not available to those with Racial Heritage.
3. As far as description shy of reskinning; There is no good answer here. Too arguable. What defines a longsword, shortsword, gladius, scimitar ect is all open to debate. Best solution? Case by case? Not ideal, but the best we got.
4. Racial Heritage for races outside of core. No consensus. By raw they are legal, some argue they are not, but there is no word from the devs one way or the other. Until Mike or Mark gets back to me on this, I'm personally going to allow my local PFS player his technically legal feat. If they say otherwise, I will deal with it accordingly. He has no plans on attending any cons, so for now the issue is moot.
I think that sums it all up as stand.
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loads of stuff
You're not the element of continuation here, Matt. I'll take some responsibility on that. As an oft-wrong-in-simple-ways DM, I don't like to see comments like above directed at Matt and other DMs who mess up like I do on a weekly basis. Yeah, I could just flag and move on, but bad judgement has a good hold on me when it comes to unbased flames.
This'll be the last post for the topic, as I don't want to keep fanning the ham-scented flames.
I understand that reskinning is not allowed. But where is the line between reskin and description? This is my main question. At what length, in inches or centimeters, does a short sword become a longsword?
Reskinning is not only Allowed but encouraged. As long as the mechanics are the same, re-skin all you like.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is one of those toolery "this is bad-fun" jack-a-napes.If you want your Monk to use a rapier, then call his Kama a Rapier and have to.
If you want your Ogre/Oni to have the stats of a half-orc then run with it...
You want Re-skinning is by it's very nature, using rules that already in place to do what you want and make it look how you want it to look.
This is NEVER a bad thing.
The rule is thus:
A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon
If you are using the STATS from an existing weapon, you are well within the rules as written you are just describing it differently with your art or figure. there is no problem with this.
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I understand that reskinning is not allowed. But where is the line between reskin and description? This is my main question. At what length, in inches or centimeters, does a short sword become a longsword?
Reskinning is not only Allowed but encouraged. As long as the mechanics are the same, re-skin all you like.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is one of those toolery "this is bad-fun" jack-a-napes.If you want your Monk to use a rapier, then call his Kama a Rapier and have to.
If you want your Ogre/Oni to have the stats of a half-orc then run with it...
You want Re-skinning is by it's very nature, using rules that already in place to do what you want and make it look how you want it to look.This is NEVER a bad thing.
BltzKrg242 I think you may have found yourself in the wrong area of the boards (since your posts are mainly in the main rules area). In PFS reskinning is not allowed as per many stated posts previously.
Reskinning and what you stated are fine for a home game, but not for society play
The rule is thus:
A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon
If you are using the STATS from an existing weapon, you are well within the rules as written you are just describing it differently with your art or figure. there is no problem with this.
I guess as an aside, Let the GM know what rules/stats you are using.
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Like Thefurmonger said, check out the thread about The Great Pig Debacle of 2011.
Once you're done reading that, if you think your concerns haven't been addressed or you have some radical new take on the issue, then please feel free to post it here.
The rest of us are still suffering PTSD from the last reskinning incident.
All your going to get out of that thread is this.
Certain people take a great deal of delite in destroying other peoples character concepts. Those people won.
The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view. (Heavens forbid I show up with my PFS legal gnome socerer riding a giant frog or a Roc.)
1. "Pig confered 0 mechanical benefits" - False
2. "Unique idea"? - That's your opinion3. "Threw a fit halfway through a convention"? - That's not very nice to say. Especially since its not true. Also it doesn't make sense.
4. "Show up with my PFS legal". - Why would it be noteworthy if you showed up with a PFS legal character to a PFS game?
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The pig confered 0 mechanical benefits, but a GM threw a fit halfway through the convention because the women's unique idea did not fit his world view.Have you ever played in Frostfur Captives? The mechanical benefit of "being able to bring your explicitly-barred animal companion and not fail the mission" is a pretty big benefit. It's a very rare case, but it IS a benefit. Yes, it could have been worked around. Hindsight is 20/20, though.
I have:
Alternate choices for small cavaliers include wolves and camels, which are both PFS legal and allowed for the adventure. The pig offered no mechanical advantage over either, including allowance in the mission.
The same would be true of my gnome sylvan sorcerer. The module places no restrictions on giant frogs.
Given the PFS legal mounts that are available and allowed in the mission, there was no reason to bar a pig that was being used strictly for flavor. The lady was not even using the attacks that would have been available to either a wolf or a pony. Just movement.
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The rule is thus:
A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon
If you are using the STATS from an existing weapon, you are well within the rules as written you are just describing it differently with your art or figure. there is no problem with this.
How does this fit with what you suggested in your earlier post:
"If you want your Monk to use a rapier, then call his Kama a Rapier and have to."Rapier is certainly an existing weapon, so the rule you quote does not give you the ability to do what you suggest.
What is it about Gencon season that makes this keep happening????
I am now out of the thread.
To the rest of you, enjoy this years pigocalypse.
You are just calling a weapon with existing stats something else.
the only difference is how you see it in your head. Where is the harm?
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Like Thefurmonger said, check out the thread about The Great Pig Debacle of 2011.
Once you're done reading that, if you think your concerns haven't been addressed or you have some radical new take on the issue, then please feel free to post it here.
The rest of us are still suffering PTSD from the last reskinning incident.
All your going to get out of that thread is this.
Certain people take a great deal of delite in destroying other peoples character concepts. Those people won.
That's a fairly cynical way of looking at things, and completely unhelpful in the current discussion.
Nobody is purposely trying to damage anyone else's fun or ideas.