It's speaking from long experience.
I've probably been playing just as long
No, you're talking about combat. Again. Your claim that the wizard needs martial classes to survive is only true at low levels.
You just spent a lot of time trying to convince me you're not trying to say a Wizard can do everything at all times, and yet, here you are saying he can. Even at higher levels, if a Wizard is decked out for combat, he's not doing anything else, and even if he is decked out for combat, he isn't making it through more than a couple of fights.
In my 15th level game, our wizard would be hard pressed to make it through 1 combat without the melee fighters. I'm not sure how much higher you're talking about, but at that level, in my experience, it isn't true.
Plus, if what you said was true, then that means that the fighter is weak compared to the cleric, druid, ranger, paladin, barbarian, monk, and arguably inquisitor and alchemist, because all of them can fulfill that role while also solving problems other than "Kill the guy."
A fighter does combat better than all of them. Is his increase in ability, worth the hit he takes to versatility? Well that's up to everyone to decide on their own.
PS the fighter is weaker than most of those classes.
I never said it wasn't. You seem to be under the impression that I think the fighter is the be all end all class, you're too wrapped up in the example instead of trying to see the point of the example.
If you're both claiming that you're not arguing with the other's point, doesn't that mean you're agreeing? Or at least, having two separate arguments with your own strawmen?
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It seems like the spectrum of versatility over time has been largely ignored.
A fighter sits on one end without very much versatility, but what he does have never depreciates. Fight after fight he will be performing basically the same. So low versatility that stays the same over time. (To preempt the common argument: HP is something that will go over time, so a fighter will eventually die. This drop in HP happens to all characters over time, and fighters and their buddies on the spectrum usually have more HP than the other side.)
On the other side of the spectrum sit the wizards. They begin an adventuring day with an amazing degree of versatility, but every time they use one of their options, they drop in versatility. After they have used all their spells, as some one once put it "they are just commoners in funny clothes". So they begin very versatile, but if they use up their powers they end up much much worse than the other spectrum end. (The common argument: it is not just spells, they also can have prepared scrolls and whatnot. That does not change my point. Each scroll they use lowers their versatility too, and also is a loss of money.)
Even though it might not happen that there are enough fights in a day to drain the wizard's spell (thanks to nice GMs), or maybe your GM always lets the wizard get a full, uninterrupted 8 hours every day (again, a nice GM). Whatever the specifics of the circumstances, over time the wizard-type will lose versatility while the fighter will not. How this balances out is largely a matter of player skill and GM foibles.
I don't care how powerful a spellcaster is if he's grappled by a barbarian of the same level that mage is so much XP. You can't fire off your Power Word Kill through a mouth full of your own teeth. Conversely, if the spellcaster can keep his distance and knows that barbarian is gunning for him, there's likely to be one less barbarian in Golarion in no time flat. Environment, environment, environment.
Also don't forget about monsters! A gelatinous cube is going to be cake for a spellcaster while the martial classes struggle. A pack of drow are going to get eaten alive by the martial classes while a spellcaster's spells bounce harmlessly off their SR. Fighters, barbarians, paladins meet a 2 HD rust-moster. Spellcasters meet a mechanical trap coated with a poison with a high Fort Save. Rouge meet a mob of creatures.
Forget about looking at the classes in some sort of PvP kinda of way because that doesn't reflect game balance as I understand it. Alone, you are meat, no matter what your class is.
RACE, on the other hand, is much bigger factor. Especially after the Advanced Race Guide. Some races just have waaaaaaay more advantages than others and *that* can threaten the balance of the game. Case in point: look at a Drow's starting traits compared to regular Elf, or a Svirfneblin to a normal Gnome.
Oscar Mike, I think you missed the point of the ARG. It breaks down exactly how the races are stronger, and gives point systems so you can attempt to balance races, or avoid teams where race will make a difference (a goblin and a drow noble will have very different power levels at Level1, for example). This would be like Pathfinder publishing their formulae for determining class balance, in that it makes the playing field much more even :)
Oscar Mike, I think you missed the point of the ARG. It breaks down exactly how the races are stronger, and gives point systems so you can attempt to balance races, or avoid teams where race will make a difference (a goblin and a drow noble will have very different power levels at Level1, for example). This would be like Pathfinder publishing their formulae for determining class balance, in that it makes the playing field much more even :)
Well if you found that to be the case, great. I didn't find that to be the case for anything except the core races. The new races had way more starting umpf than the core races, imo. Try it at home: make a 1st level Aasimar Paladin or Cleric and then make a 1st level Human Paladin or Cleric and compare. Make a 1st level Tiefling Rouge then make a 1st level Halfling Rouge. There's no comparison; the new races have so much more going for them out of the gate then the old races that theres little reason to want to stay with the older stuff (from a purely mechanical perspective anyway).
It's the White Wolf/Palladium problem all over again. A new supplement comes out and the new material makes the old material obsolete.
A fighter sits on one end without very much versatility, but what he does have never depreciates. Fight after fight he will be performing basically the same. So low versatility that stays the same over time. (To preempt the common argument: HP is something that will go over time, so a fighter will eventually die. This drop in HP happens to all characters over time, and fighters and their buddies on the spectrum usually have more HP than the other side.)
Just because the fighting types have more HP does not mean they have infinite HP. It is just another resource. A martial character may have a bit more of it, but it still runs out. It is just that instead of having multiple resource pools (spells and HP), they only have the one (HP). When several types of casters can exchange one pool (spells) for another (HP), the equation becomes even more lopsided. That a martial character's ability to hit things never runs out is not going to let them continue indefinitely, anymore than a caster's cantrips (and weaker ability to hit things) allows them to continue forever.
Further, HP loss is far from the only thing that ends a martial character's day. Ability drain, status effects, and long term spell effects can force a martial character to stop for the day without touching his HP. Then there are the challenges that they simply had no ability to deal with from the start. A 100' chasm, an underwater temple, a hostage that won't reveal information; depending on build and magic items, these could each be an unassailable roadblock. Where a caster (depending on flavor) might be able to deal with these in 8 hours, a character without the correct martial ability is simply out of luck. The Barbarian who took Intimidate might be able to get information from the hostage, but the one that didn't is in trouble. Meanwhile, the Paladin who forgot his Diplomacy ranks might rest and try some combination of eagle's splendor, honeyed tongue,zone of truth, and discern lies to help get some information. A Cleric would have even more tools.
Hence the difference in tiers. It isn't that a character's nonmagical skills are useless, it is that they don't change except over many levels, and are fewer in number than even spontaneous casters' "spells known." While a hammer may be all you need, a toolbox will cover more situations. One that you can switch items out of, even moreso.
make a 1st level Aasimar Paladin or Cleric and then make a 1st level Human Paladin or Cleric and compare. Make a 1st level Tiefling Rouge then make a 1st level Halfling Rouge.
This is... wow. Aasimar make terrible Paladins, as they no longer need Wisdom. Tieflings are only better at being rouge because that is a possible skin color for them. As Rogues, the Halfling is really close to equal. Perhaps even better, considering high Reflex and Evasion tend to allow avoiding elemental damage, while the Rogue's other poor saves will greatly benefit from the Halfling boost.With a few exceptions, the ARG races are about the same as core. Drow Nobles and Svirfneblin throw things off, but planetouched and such are totally reasonable for play. Even the ones with higher RP values.
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The new races had way more starting umpf than the core races, imo. Try it at home: make a 1st level Aasimar Paladin or Cleric and then make a 1st level Human Paladin or Cleric and compare. Make a 1st level Tiefling Rouge then make a 1st level Halfling Rouge. There's no comparison; the new races have so much more going for them out of the gate then the old races that theres little reason to want to stay with the older stuff (from a purely mechanical perspective anyway).
It's the White Wolf/Palladium problem all over again. A new supplement comes out and the new material makes the old material obsolete.
Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin, especially if the competition is at first level where the human can drop his stat into strength, while the Aasimar's CHA and WIS are kinda "meh". You get an extra point in perception and social skills, the human gets a bonus skill rank at every level. Aasimar can cast Daylight 1/day (ooooh, a racial spell-like ability that negates their own darkvision, cool) the human gets an extra feat which can be used for anything, probably an unlimited number of times per day.
I could expand on the virtues of the halfling vs. the tiefling as a rogue (halfling luck? racial bonuses to perception, acrobatics and climb?) but they're actually fairly closely matched in that scenario, as opposed to a clear win for the human in the paladin argument.
The svirfneblin is clearly pretty OP, and that's why it's in the back of the book. Their new base drow is actually nicely balanced to the other core races, so you've pretty much got... The svirfneblin as the only solid example of an OP race, and everyone pretty much knew that already. Svirfneblin has been the same since back in 3.0/3.5 when he had a +3 ECL.
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Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin...
Who cares about adversarial analysis of class balance?
Unless you actually play PvP gladiatorial deathmatches all the time, the results are completely meaningless.
Hey AMiB, which would you rather have, a mixed party including a Fighter*, or an all-caster party?
*Let's expand that to any dedicated weapon-oriented class.
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Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin...Who cares about adversarial analysis of class balance?
Unless you actually play PvP gladiatorial deathmatches all the time, the results are completely meaningless.
Sorry, was just responding to his statement. I didn't actually mean that he would physically stomp on the Aasimar, but rather that he would largely outperform in the areas the paladin would be expected to contribute. The Aasimar had at best a small edge in a few social situations.
Sorry, was just responding to his statement. I didn't actually mean that he would physically stomp on the Aasimar, but rather that he would largely outperform in the areas the paladin would be expected to contribute. The Aasimar had at best a small edge in a few social situations.Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin...Who cares about adversarial analysis of class balance?
Unless you actually play PvP gladiatorial deathmatches all the time, the results are completely meaningless.
No apology necessary.
I just saw this thread as a whole progressing into "Class A is better than Class B" territory. "Better" is subjective. What do we mean when we say "better"?
I know AMiB means "able to solve more problems likely to be encountered in a typical campaign".
And he's right.
It turns out, though, that a certain kind of player *likes* not solving problems, and likes hittings things with swords a lot. This type of player relies on other people to enable him to hit, but when he hits, he hits hard. Maybe he hits harder than any of those other classes might, but he hasn't done the math. So? He hits, he has fun.
I think if a magic faerie came and made the fighter a tier-1, problem-solving class, I know at least three people who would be profoundly disappointed.
What on earth are melee classes doing at 15th level to keep a wizard alive? They can't block foes and they're playing rocket launcher tag with weaker rockets. Are your wizards casting damage spells at that level or something?
The wizard is awesome at battle field control, but eventually that web is going to go away, and if the monster isn't dead when it does, the Wizard will be.
How do you expect a high level wizard to solo through a level 15 fight?
No, he doesn't. There are many foes which will cheerfully destroy anyone in melee combat, or are practically immune to at least one combat type (and fighters can't really do more than one combat type effectively).
I'm not sure what you mean by "combat type" but I'll explain it this way:
This goes back to my old Monk vs Fighter argument. It was people's contention that a Monk was (is probably) useless because a fighter could have a much higher attack. A fighter would be +48 to attack and the monk was only +40 (just making up numbers to make a point). What people failed to realize was that the average monster AC at that level was 35, so in reality both the fighter and the monk had the exact same chance to hit. I even pulled out the Kingmaker AP and went through those encounters to show that a Monk, even with his reduced BAB, would have little issues hitting the baddies.
Now when you're talking about just the fighter, people assume the fighter needs to have the highest BAB possible with one chosen weapon to be effective, this isn't really the case. Then there are the feats that allow the feats for one weapon to apply to a different weapon all combining to give the figther many ways to kill things.
Also, you have everyone here except you and some people who can't find their shift keys saying, yes, that versatility is kind of a big deal unless you're playing D&D Diablo Edition as in PFS.
Actually I've never stated which way I fall on this line, my inital point was and is that there is balance. A Fighter's combat ability is balanced by his lack of out of combat ability.
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@ Evil Lincoln
I absolutely agree. I know that in my group, I have players with fairly high degrees of system mastery who would rather just play a character who hits things really, really, hard. They don't want the trouble of tracking spells, or planning out which buffs stack with which, they want to be able to rely on someone else to do that, with the full understanding that while they won't be solving any puzzles or fast-talking any angry guardsmen, when the time comes to hit things, they've got this.
I've got one player who was actually a little leery when he saw the Pathfinder Fighter when we came over from 3.5, because they'd added so much stuff. It wasn't that he wasn't capable of running a complex character, he just didn't always want to.
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@ Jodokai
I don't disagree with you. Like EL and I were just discussing, "balance" in this game is not "all things being equal, class A will always have an even chance of beating class B and vice versa", it's about a given characters ability to meaningfully contribute to a party within its expected capacity. Fighters (and some other melee types) are your main damage dealers, and will consistently be able to deal damage and absorb a certain amount of punishment. They will be reliably and consistently good at this.
Wizards (as the primary example in this argument) are a little more nebulous in that they have so many variables they can play with.
At mid to high levels, a wizard probably will have far more versatility in what he can do in and out of combat, but he also has far more variables to deal with (limited spell selection, enemy SR, enemy saves, counter-spells, anti-magic, etc.).
You can play your wizard and hope that luck sees you through, or you can specialize to limit how many of those factors are really an issue for you. However, the more variables you account for as a wizard, the more of your resources (feats, spell selection, equipment, etc.) you commit towards that, and the lower your versatility goes.
At, say, level 15, you could probably run a group of 5 wizards, but you'd probably see each of those wizards really focusing into one or two things they're doing during combat. It would be harder to run a group of 5 fighters. I see that as largely irrelevant, since a) those probably never got to 15 without fighters to help them along the way, b) 15 and up are the least commonly played levels in the game and c) the game is built for cooperative play. Just because you could run the adventure with 5 wizards, doesn't mean that doing so would be better or more fun than doing so with a mixed party of characters with varying skills to contribute.
Alchemist: Way too much damage and tons of utility rolled into one easy little class. Although the touch attack bombs are a good idea, I would give players fewer bombs (cut it down about half) and I would give the class a Wizards attack bonus.
That's the only class that I think is OP for the most part.
Really, I think the major problem with the other classes is the monsters you go up against. I think some of them could use a boost.
How do you expect a high level wizard to solo through a level 15 fight? ...
A wizard doesn't have to get through it. A wizard of that power can bypass it entirely.
Failing that, the wizard goes to find a spell that targets the appropriately weak save, and defeats the encounter via 8 hours of preparation.
For example: how do you defeat the tarrasque with one character? Most answers will involve a wizard or sorcerer answer. Not too many fighters I reckon.
For every situation, the wizard can have an answer now or in 8 hours. The fighter had one answer: hit with physical damage. This works in one kind of encounter: combat. Wizards can contribute during combat, or any other scenario you wish to bring up. That's a fact. A fighter contributes to almost nothing... Beyond fighting. (as the name implies.)
Not certain why you are arguing otherwise. Spells bend and break rules. Physical damage cannot. True power is altering/ breaking rules. The legal way to do that is via spells. Ergo, spell casters are more powerful/versatile than a single aspect of the game (physical damage) can ever be. I.e, those that cast spells (wizards) are more powerful and versatile than those that specialise in dealing physical damage (fighters).
Thusly, wizard>fighter.
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I love how people Compaire wizards to poorly built fighters who have no skills.
100' chasm the fighter can climb down and, swimming through a rapid and at the bottom while fighting sea monsters, and climb up the other side.
fighters have skills too, stealth, climb, swim, diplomacy, perception, disguise are great picks. Traits, favored class, archatypes, skill focus, permanate magic items, masterwork tools, and consumables allow them to succeed with fewer skill points. I agree the fighter could use 4+ a level and some retooling, but a reboot is not needed. Cavaliers, rangers, samurai, barbarians, and rogues can totally fill all these gaps too.
Every class has weak spots, every class is built to be part of a team. I see it as, Casters are supposed to do awesome things and melee are supposed to be awesome doing things.
Samurai and cavaliers have full level animal companions which will eat a few skill points on ride and handle animal (but their animals can take feats like step up and IUS for dragon style) also flying mounts may be approved. Which makes barbarians a good pick for the best full bab in all situations due to high number of skills and no skill hog?
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A wizard doesn't have to get through it. A wizard of that power can bypass it entirely.
Unless you have to defeat the baddie
Failing that, the wizard goes to find a spell that targets the appropriately weak save, and defeats the encounter via 8 hours of preparation.
So the wizard's answer is to leave for 8 hours? Okay you leave, then when you come back, the dungeon you just cleared out is now restocked, except you don't have spells for them minoins, because you just prepared for the big baddie. On top of that a half hour before you come back the big baddie enslaves the world turning everyone against you.
This is what I mean when I say Theory-Crafters. Your plan sounds great and even possible in theory. In an actual campaign, it falls flat.
For example: how do you defeat the tarrasque with one character? Most answers will involve a wizard or sorcerer answer. Not too many fighters I reckon.
You don't defeat a tarrasque solo, although a Luck Blade wielded by a fighter can be just as effective.
For every situation, the wizard can have an answer now or in 8 hours. The fighter had one answer: hit with physical damage. This works in one kind of encounter: combat. Wizards can contribute during combat, or any other scenario you wish to bring up. That's a fact. A fighter contributes to almost nothing... Beyond fighting. (as the name implies.)
And in a real campaign, 8 hours later isn't going to help you. You have to prepare for the adventure in front of you. The wizard has to depend on lucky guesses, if they guess wrong, or use resources to preapre for something that doesn't happen, they don't leave resources for what is there. In a real campaign coming back in 8 hours isn't a viable option, so in theory the wizard could solve the problem quickly, however, in reality the wizard isn't usually psychic enough to have exactly what they need handy. During those times, they will need a fighter, or a rogue (using those terms to mean generic melee person and skill monkey) .
Not certain why you are arguing otherwise. Spells bend and break rules. Physical damage cannot. True power is altering/ breaking rules. The legal way to do that is via spells. Ergo, spell casters are more powerful/versatile than a single aspect of the game (physical damage) can ever be. I.e, those that cast spells (wizards) are more powerful and versatile than those that specialise in dealing physical damage (fighters).
Thusly, wizard>fighter.
Again, no one is arguing that a prepared Wizard can't beat a fighter. What I am saying is just because this is so, that doesn't mean the classes aren't balanced.
Tarrasque
Ugh, not anymore. It was a 3.5 thing. You got an allip. Then you just wisdom drained the Tarrasque into a coma and shovelled dirt into its nostrils so it suffocated and died. You did this at level one. It was extremely cheesy. Or you did it at a slightly higher level if the GM ruled its breathing blew the dirt out of its nose. I might be a little off but the d20srd is down and I can't check.
Now the Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, the allip does wisdom damage, and allips are harder to summon.
Ugh, not anymore. It was a 3.5 thing. You got an allip. Then you just wisdom drained the Tarrasque into a coma and shovelled dirt into its nostrils so it suffocated and died. You did this at level one. It was extremely cheesy. Or you did it at a slightly higher level if the GM ruled its breathing blew the dirt out of its nose. I might be a little off but the d20srd is down and I can't check.The cheesy PF weakness of the tarrasque is Plane Shift.
:| Please tell me you can't do this at level 1.
Every time I read these boards I wonder more and more how many people actually have groups and play the game, and how many don't have groups so they sit around talking about it.
Some people who comment on class balance do actually play the game, you know.
Some of us even play fighters, and (gasp) enjoy doing so!
I play a fighter and I enjoy doing so. That does not mean that I like seeing other classes made better in pure fighting than the fighter is (such as has been the trend in APG and UC), any more than I particularly enjoy knowing that the loss of my fighter would be mechanically inconvenient to the party while the loss of our wizard would be mechanically devastating.
I would like a better balanced system even if I am fully capable of enjoying what we have.
I don't know about you, but MY Wizard absolutely loves having a BSF. Without my BSF, my damage drops a lot.
Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin, especially if the competition is at first level where the human can drop his stat into strength, while the Aasimar's CHA and WIS are kinda "meh". You get an extra point in perception and social skills, the human gets a bonus skill rank at every level. Aasimar can cast Daylight 1/day (ooooh, a racial spell-like ability that negates their own darkvision, cool) the human gets an extra feat which can be used for anything, probably an unlimited number of times per day.The new races had way more starting umpf than the core races, imo. Try it at home: make a 1st level Aasimar Paladin or Cleric and then make a 1st level Human Paladin or Cleric and compare. Make a 1st level Tiefling Rouge then make a 1st level Halfling Rouge. There's no comparison; the new races have so much more going for them out of the gate then the old races that theres little reason to want to stay with the older stuff (from a purely mechanical perspective anyway).
It's the White Wolf/Palladium problem all over again. A new supplement comes out and the new material makes the old material obsolete.
I take it you haven't done much playing in the Hells. Word to the wise: it's really, really dark. Not to mention evil outsiders (a paladin's specialty) tend to use magical darkness all the time AND the Aasimar net 2 more attribute points than a human. If Wisdom isn't important to your pally you can drop it lower than you could with a human and put it somewhere else. And then there's the resistances. The bonus feat is cool but it ain't *that* cool. Then there's the fact that most sources give the Aasimar a longer life span too.
Basically, I have no idea how you've managed to conclude the Aasimar and Humans are on the same power level. They aren't.
I could expand on the virtues of the halfling vs. the tiefling as a rogue (halfling luck? racial bonuses to perception, acrobatics and climb?) but they're actually fairly closely matched in that scenario, as opposed to a clear win for the human in the paladin argument.
Still not seeing the win in the human at all but the darkness spell like ability + Darkvision is an advantage that the Halfling (without so much as low-light vision) just can't match. The bonus to saves is good but the Spell like abilities are better imo.
The svirfneblin is clearly pretty OP, and that's why it's in the back of the book. Their new base drow is actually nicely balanced to the other core races, so you've pretty much got... The svirfneblin as the only solid example of an OP race, and everyone pretty much knew that already. Svirfneblin has been the same since back in 3.0/3.5 when he had a +3 ECL.
Two words about the Drow: Spell Resistance.
Darkvision isn't that hard to get via magic. Geting an extra feat or a bonus to all saves that stacks with most of bonuses is a lot harder.
Five points of Elemental resistance is nice at level 1, but before long it'll be a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of elemental damage you're likely to take.
As for Drow Spell Resistance, Dwarves can get about the same amount of SR by taking the Magic Resistant substitution. Not to mention that SR is rather infamously double-edged; nothing worse than blocking buff/healing spell you really needed.
I don't know about you, but MY Wizard absolutely loves having a BSF. Without my BSF, my damage drops a lot.Even then, druids make pretty decent BSFs. Even in Pathfinder, I wouldn't bet against a cleric as a BSF.
Hmm... I haven't tried doing it with a Druid. I haven't met any decently optimized Polymorph Druids though.
I usually play with a friend who likes the Barbarian. That's an easy class to get damage with. A little haste and a little telekinetic charge = lots of damage.
I wasn't the arcane caster at the time, but I've seen a level 9 barbarian get 6 attacks off from that combo (Swift action from Telekinetic Charge, 2 normal attacks, 2 Natural Weapon Attacks (Horns from Totem feat and Half-Orc Bite), plus Haste.) I don't remember if all the attacks hit but I think it ended up being well over 150 damage.
Now you COULD argue that this situation was all because of the Arcane Caster since the Barbarian wouldn't have gotten his full-round of attacks without Telekinetic Charge, and you'd be right. But then the Arcane Caster would be hard pressed to do that much damage with a single spell cast at that level without the Barbarian (Assuming haste is a given.)
I think the problem with balance arguments is that they often consider the singular power of each individual class without considering the possibilities of class combinations. Sure, at first glance it looks like the Wizard can do more and is thus more powerful, and that's probably true if you were looking at the game as a 1v1 free for all tournament.
But when you get a Fighter and a Wizard working together, you suddenly have a duo that compliments each other and is fun to play with. Any Wizard who knows how to be effective knows that "being God" means using your Mortals as avatars of your power. It does not mean trying to steal the show.
Now I have personal qualms with some classes like the Rogue and the Monk because I just can't seem to build anything that is satisfyingly fun to me. But then I have a friend playing a Zen Archer in our current campaign who is having a blast being the one ranged damage-dealer in the party, and has managed to shine so many situations where our group would otherwise have a weakness.
There is such a thing as a waste of space but I don't think that there is any class that is inherently such.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure what your problem is. You
Quite frankly, I don't have a problem, besides people thinking a wizard can memorize 48 9th level spells per second.
Or in other words: Your plan works great if a 20th level Wizard was going after the Big Baddie who's a 1st level warrior orc. If the you actually assume they're around the same CR:
And why does the wizard have to go back through the dungeon again? WALKING from point A to point B is for fighters. I'm a wizard! I'll turn myself invisible,
Right, because NOTHING has Scent.
clairvoyance
Baddie likes his dungeon dark, you see a whopping 10'
or scry to make sure the villain is still there,
Baddie made his Will save at +5.
summon some monsters, dimension door into the villain's room with the monsters, wall off the exit so that reinforcements will take forever, cast the spells I need to win the fight or just disrupt the ritual/save the prisoner/complete the objective, then teleport back out.
Cool, except the baddie has had 8 hours to prepare for you too, so he installed couple of Dimensional Anchors... Guess who's walking?
It's not a matter of the heroes showing up 8 hours before doomsday, it's a matter of the heroes showing up, the wizard saying "Oops sorry fellas I have the wrong spell, let's come back in 8 hours" that makes the baddie move up his time table. You think the world should be static while the Wizard sleeps his 8 hours (more likely closer to 24 since, again, slots get filled once per 24 hours, not once per 8 hours of rest), then I understand why you have balance issues.
I can't even tell what point you're trying to make.
This is painfully obvious, but it didn't stop you from trying to argue anyway, instead of trying to understand. If you read Kaptain Krunch's post above mine (assuming it sill is when I finish this) that's really my point.
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"lol magic" is never a good answer to an in game challenge.
Scrying is not very reliable, If you finally succeed you only see/ hear 10 feet around him for 7+ min. If you are lucky he isn't sleeping/eating/on the toilet at some other dudes place. Then you have to worry about teleport traps and mishaps. All magic has problems and big bads should expect stuff like this and be prepared. (well by the levels you can get teleport).Summons who you can't talk to and convince won't be willing subjects either.
Using resources for temporary duplications of what a fighter can do is fine by me. More likely you spent cash on it, just like a fighter sometimes uses magic potions.
Teleport trap can be made permanent at the cost of 7,000 gp. A single permanency spell can be used on all teleport traps that share a linked destination, but the gold piece cost must be paid for each individual spell.
The Pathfinders of the Grand Lodge make use of permanent teleport traps in several key locations, trapping would-be intruders in a small wing of jail cells. At least one crypt of the Whispering Tyrant makes use of the spell as well, trapping grave robbers in coffin-sized stone cysts, there to die a slow and agonizing death from thirst and starvation.
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Umm.... No. A Human Paladin will stomp all over that Aasimar Paladin, especially if the competition is at first level where the human can drop his stat into strength, while the Aasimar's CHA and WIS are kinda "meh". You get an extra point in perception and social skills, the human gets a bonus skill rank at every level. Aasimar can cast Daylight 1/day (ooooh, a racial spell-like ability that negates their own darkvision, cool) the human gets an extra feat which can be used for anything, probably an unlimited number of times per day.The new races had way more starting umpf than the core races, imo. Try it at home: make a 1st level Aasimar Paladin or Cleric and then make a 1st level Human Paladin or Cleric and compare. Make a 1st level Tiefling Rouge then make a 1st level Halfling Rouge. There's no comparison; the new races have so much more going for them out of the gate then the old races that theres little reason to want to stay with the older stuff (from a purely mechanical perspective anyway).
It's the White Wolf/Palladium problem all over again. A new supplement comes out and the new material makes the old material obsolete.
I take it you haven't done much playing in the Hells. Word to the wise: it's really, really dark. Not to mention evil outsiders (a paladin's specialty) tend to use magical darkness all the time AND the Aasimar net 2 more attribute points than a human. If Wisdom isn't important to your pally you can drop it lower than you could with a human and put it somewhere else. And then there's the resistances. The bonus feat is cool but it ain't *that* cool. Then there's the fact that most sources give the Aasimar a longer life span too.
Basically, I have no idea how you've managed to conclude the Aasimar and Humans are on the same power level. They aren't.
I could expand on the virtues of the halfling vs. the tiefling as a rogue (halfling luck? racial bonuses to perception, acrobatics and climb?)...
Where to start... When did you run a campaign where 1st level characters were fighting in the Hells? Since we are talking about 1st level characters by your own statement. By the time you're fighting in the Hells, there's really no advantage to having Darkvision, since most characters have either simulated it or come up with other ways to overcome lighting conditions at this point. An extra feat is absolutely worth a +2 stat bonus, especially for the Paladin who has great class abilities but limited feat availability. Plus, by the time you're adventuring in the Hells, your human will have half again as many skill points to work with, meaning more options in certain situations, more ways to overcome / deal with various obstacles. You'll forgive me if I don't consider "Has a longer lifespan according to some supplements" to be a mechanical advantage.
As to the halfling/ tiefling comparison, Darkness and Darkvision are great, the one time a day you get to do it, but the halfling's bonus to saves and skills last all day long.And, as to the drow, Spell Resistance is a double-edged sword. At most levels of play it is way more likely to block your own party members heals or buffs than it is to stop an enemies spells.
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Just a note, arguing game balance past 15th level is a moot point. Most campaigns never reach that far and characters are supposed to become imbalanced because they're practically Gods at that point.
As for balance before 15th, the only issue I've ever encountered is the Summoner. First, there doesn't seem to be any reason for the class to exist because conjurer specialized wizards supposedly fit that role. Second, they can build their Eidilon's to become better than any other class at their niche. Want to be a skill monkey? Spam the skilled evolution. Want to be fighterish? Have crazy reach and multiple tentacle arms that all deal stacked elemental type damage. The class system is designed to fit a party into certain roles and when you have a class that can be built to be better than other roles it doesn't work. Plus the Synthesist was a huge step backwards in developement because it opened the door to stat dumping (something paizo revised with the druid's wildshape ability).
Also, those advocating the Samurai as weak must be over looking the Ronin order and the Resolve ability. Granted the class lacks focus with mounted combat feats thrown in and the Sword Saint being relatively useless until 10th level, but these two abilities make this class one of the most resiliant in the game. Pair that with 4+int skill points and this class is very desireable as a high BAB tank/BBEG slayer.
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Just a note, arguing game balance past 15th level is a moot point. Most campaigns never reach that far and characters are supposed to become imbalanced because they're practically Gods at that point.
As for balance before 15th, the only issue I've ever encountered is the Summoner. First, there doesn't seem to be any reason for the class to exist because conjurer specialized wizards supposedly fit that role. Second, they can build their Eidilon's to become better than any other class at their niche. Want to be a skill monkey? Spam the skilled evolution. Want to be fighterish? Have crazy reach and multiple tentacle arms that all deal stacked elemental type damage. The class system is designed to fit a party into certain roles and when you have a class that can be built to be better than other roles it doesn't work. Plus the Synthesist was a huge step backwards in developement because it opened the door to stat dumping (something paizo revised with the druid's wildshape ability).
Also, those advocating the Samurai as weak must be over looking the Ronin order and the Resolve ability. Granted the class lacks focus with mounted combat feats thrown in and the Sword Saint being relatively useless until 10th level, but these two abilities make this class one of the most resiliant in the game.
Agreed on both points. Samurai rock socks, and the Summoner can be frustrating since his Eidolon gets to be the best there is at what it does pretty consistently. Not even accounting for the Master Summoner archetype, which is awesomely OP, or the Synthesist Archetype, which can be frustratingly complex, especially when someone who has a less than perfect grasp of system mastery and the characters idiosyncracies is trying to run it.
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I just noticed its an easy perception check to notice a scrying sensor (20+ spell level) BBEG and PCs will notice it more often than not. (info is under divination)
You have a dc 20 hunch roll to know and invisible creature is around you. (I wouldn't assume this applies to the above but it is something I have forgotten before).
On top of this you have saving throws and many spells are restricted or beaten by mundane situations like lead. On top of obvious spells and magic items and sr.
On the Samurai, he is a beast. Negating crits, rolling twice on saves, hitting hard, full lvl animal companion. I could wish for more skills or something else shiny to keep me in the class better, but I love it.