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Well, continuing with my revision list, I've also gotten the chance to finish up the Rogue class as well. Again, for anyone who hasn't viewed my "Barbarian Revised*" thread, my goal is to basically expand class features while still giving the player an enormous amount of customization while still staying true to the theme of the class.
Now then, as man of you might know, the rogue has been in a desperate need for a revision, and I honestly believe that I have finally found the formula for making it a fun and balanced class. Again, all comments, critiques, and suggestions are welcomed. Also, it is important to think of these revised classes as combinations of all almost all the arch-types. Therefore, the rogue has basically been given elements from the bard, ninja, and assassin classes (I know this might not sit well with some of you, but please review the class before making any hasty judgments). Thanks again.
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Hit Die: d8
Average BAB
Fort Saves: Poor
Reflex Saves: Good
Will Saves: Poor
Class Skills: The rogue’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, kama, kusarigama, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Rogue Talent: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent and gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. Unless otherwise stated, a rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once. Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made. The following are the list of talents a rogue can select:
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this trick can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleed damage bypasses any DR the creature might possess.
Crafty (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can roll two dice while making a Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.
Ghost Step (Su): As a swift action, a rogue with this talent can pass through walls as if she were a ghost. Until the end of her turn, she can pass through a wall or other surface that is up to 5 feet thick per level as if she were incorporeal. This talent can only be used three times per day. A rogue must be at least 12th level before selecting this talent.
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this talent can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent. Combat Trick: A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat. A rogue can select this talent up to three times.
Startling Strike* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the target is shaken and cannot take a 5-foot step for one round.
Expert Movement (Ex): When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start. Also, when the rogue uses Acrobatics to move at full speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity, the DC of the Acrobatics check does not increase by 10. And finally, a rogue with this talent can move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.
A Touch of Rage (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to enter a rage-like state for 6 rounds a day as a free action. While in this state, a rogue gains a +2 moral bonus on attack and damage rolls and a +2 moral bonus on Will saves. Like a barbarian, a rogue cannot use this talent while fatigued or exhausted, although she still retains the ability to use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill, and can also use any ability that requires patience or concentration (in essence, she functions normally). A rogue can end this rage as a free action. Upon exiting this rage, the rogue is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in rage.
Ground Crawler (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling. In addition, a rogue can also stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can roll two dice while making an Acrobatics, Climb, Sleight of Hand, or Swim check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.
Shadow Clone (Su): As a standard action, a rogue can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of herself that conceal her true location. This ability functions as mirror image, using the rogue’s level as her caster level. This talent can only be used three times per day. In addition, when a rogue uses this talent and is at least 10th level or higher, she can create an addition 1d4 duplicates.
Slow Reactions* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent deals sneak attack damage to a creature, her target is entangled and cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Sudden Disguise (Su): As a swift action, a rogue can change her appearance for 1 minute per level. This ability functions as disguise self. This talent can only be used three times per day. In addition, when a rogue uses this talent and is at least 10th level or higher, the duration of this talent increases to 10 minutes per level rather than 1 minute per level.
Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, a rogue can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility, and can only be used three times per day. In addition, when a rogue uses this talent and is at least 10th level or higher, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility instead.
Unbound Steps (Su): Whenever a rogue with this talent uses the light steps class feature, she can walk on air, rising or descending as she desires. She must end her move on a solid surface. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Expert Accuracy (Ex): A rogue with this talent uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. A rogue must be at least 12th level before selecting this talent.
Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must be at least 12th level before selecting this talent.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. When a rogue would take damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability) she can attempt to roll with the blow to reduce the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. A rogue can use this ability three per day, and must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Offensive Defense* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round. This dodge bonus only applies against the creature the rogue sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself.
Deadly Range (Ex): A rogue with this talent increases the range at which she can apply her sneak attack damage by 5 feet. This range increases by 5 feet for every 3 levels after 3rd.
Silencing strike* (Ex): A rogue with this talent uses her sneak attack to injure an enemy’s throat. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks cannot speak or vocalize for 1 round.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A rogue with this talent can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a rogue can hide herself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Poison Expert (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply poison to a weapon as a move action, instead of a standard action, and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon. In addition, when a rogue uses this talent and is at least 10th level or higher, she can apply two doses of poison to a weapon at once. These can be separate poisons, in which case they both affect the target individually, or two doses of the same toxin, in which case the poisons’ frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This talent is an exception to the rule that injury poisons can only be delivered one dose at a time.
Slippery Mind (Ex): A rogue with this talent can, as an immediate action, reroll a failed Will save. This talent must be used after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The rogue must take the second result, even if it is worse. A rogue must be at least 12th level before selecting this talent.
Improved Evasion (Ex): A rogue with this talent takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, and henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Limited Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once the spell has been selected, it cannot be changed. Prerequisites: INT 11.
Magic Adept (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 2nd-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 12 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once the spell has been selected, it cannot be changed. Prerequisites: INT 12, Limited Magic.
Gifted Magician (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 13 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once the spell has been selected, it cannot be changed. Prerequisites: INT 13, Magic Adept.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Light Steps (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 12th level, a rogue can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 15th level, a rogue considers all skills to be class skills. At 18th level, a rogue can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.
Master Strike (Ex): At 16th level, a rogue can spend 1 round to study an enemy as a standard action. On the following round, if the rogue makes a sneak attack against that enemy, that enemy must make a Fortitude save (DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier) or suffer one of the following effects of the rogue’s choice:
• The target is put to sleep for 1d4 hours.
• The target is paralyzed for 2d6 rounds.
• The target is slain.
On a successful save, the target still takes sneak attack damage as normal, but is immune to the rogue’s Master Strike ability for 1 day.
Unrivaled Luck (Ex): At 20th level, a rogue can take a 10 on all Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. Additionally, once per round, whenever a rogue successfully hits an enemy with a melee or ranged attack within 30 feet, she can automatically apply sneak attack damage against that target even if it wasn’t flanked or denied its dexterity bonus to AC. This ability also works on creatures that are normally immune to precision damage.
A few issues I see readily.
You forgot the level requirement for Hide in Plain Sight.
Where is the source of magic coming from?
Silencing strike needs a saving throw (fortitude) and should be (Su). Don't you dare say I need a talent to attack the throat :p
It reallllly steps on the toes of the alchemist, what with getting 3 or 4 of their discoveries for just one rogue talent. Do not like that. I also don't like how it's mostly just a compilation of other classes abilities, or the merging of multiple rogue talents.
Where did the cantrip magic talent go? I like that one. Being able to detect magic 3 times per day is very useful for the rogue who wants to infiltrate. Doubly so because it's a completely mental action.
Slow Reactions: Oh god, don't give entangled that easily. If you must, at least give it a saving throw.
DCs: make them Strength based, maybe. I think their choice of any 3 mental stats is best, but whatever. If they have weapon finesse, they can use dex as the DC modifier.
Great job with not pigeonholing the rogue into any niche, and keeping the versatility.
I do not like the duct-tape method this take took, and I don't really think it'll fix much. For one, it doesn't deal with having to use a buddy to get your main class feature with any resemblance of consistency.
A few issues I see readily.
You forgot the level requirement for Hide in Plain Sight.
Where is the source of magic coming from?
Silencing strike needs a saving throw (fortitude) and should be (Su). Don't you dare say I need a talent to attack the throat :p
It reallllly steps on the toes of the alchemist, what with getting 3 or 4 of their discoveries for just one rogue talent. Do not like that. I also don't like how it's mostly just a compilation of other classes abilities, or the merging of multiple rogue talents.
Where did the cantrip magic talent go? I like that one. Being able to detect magic 3 times per day is very useful for the rogue who wants to infiltrate. Doubly so because it's a completely mental action.
Slow Reactions: Oh god, don't give entangled that easily. If you must, at least give it a saving throw.
DCs: make them Strength based, maybe. I think their choice of any 3 mental stats is best, but whatever. If they have weapon finesse, they can use dex as the DC modifier.
Great job with not pigeonholing the rogue into any niche, and keeping the versatility.
I do not like the duct-tape method this take took, and I don't really think it'll fix much. For one, it doesn't deal with having to use a buddy to get your main class feature with any resemblance of consistency.
You've made some good points, though I can't help but feel inclined to dispute a few of them.
1) The lack of saving throws for silencing strike and slow reactions seems justified since they effects only last for 1 round, and they can only be applied of the rogue deals sneak attack damage. I suppose I could add saving throws if I find that the power level becomes too unbalanced, but as you mentioned, obtaining sneak attack damage isn't really an easy thing (also, on another note, I don't really think sneak attack counts as the primary class feature for the rogue. I would argue that rogue talents, trapfinding, and jack of all trades are what REALLY separate the rogue from other classes. Sneak attack, in the end, is just a little extra damage).
2) All DCs need to be intelligence based because Intelligence is the ability that the rogue is based around (like how Paladin's use charisma, and Barbarian's constitution).
3) I did forget to give Hide in Plain Sight a level restriction (I'd probably make it 8th level). Thanks for the catch.
4) The cantrip rogue talent seemed a bit excessive since you could probably just buy a wand for the same effect anyway (plus, I felt that it made the 'magic talent' tree a little to large). Keep in mind that if you stay in the class til level 20, you only get to pick 10 of the following talents (though I do plan to make a feat where you can add another talent, so technically you can have up to 11).
5) I'm not really sure what's wrong with the 'duct-tape method' since that's pretty much what pathfinder archtypes do anyway (only with less versatility).
6) The source of magic comes from the wizard/sorcerer list, as stated in the post (and please, don't make me post that list...tis too big).
Again, thanks for the input, and if you have any other comments/concerns just let me know. :P
I don't really think sneak attack counts as the primary class feature for the rogue. I would argue that rogue talents, trapfinding, and jack of all trades are what REALLY separate the rogue from other classes.
I'm going to disagree with you there. I think sneak attack, or some other ability to exploit a flaw in your opponent's defences for your own advantage is a fundamental part of the rogue class. Sure, some other classes have stolen the ability through archetypes (thanks to that duct-tape-like approach a lot of them have), but having precision damage which requires the player to set up combats in a way that suits them best is something which differentiates the rogue from any other class.
I think that unless you give them something fundamental, rogues are always going to pretty much suck. I would suggest a good will save and a stacking insight bonus to hit enemies that they engage continuously.
something like Analyze footwork (ex:) at third level (just an example) the rogue gains insight into the combat tendencies of the enemy they are currently targeting. At the beginning of combat, the rogue designates a target, each round that the rogue engages that target, the rogue gains a plus one insight bonus to his attack roll. this bonus cannot exceed a total of one fifth the rogues hit dice.
and then I would add a rogue talent gated for level twelve or something that increases the insight bonus per round, but not the cap. So plus two per round capping at one fifth HD.
probably needs to be flushed out to meet the descriptor requirements, but you get the gist.
If you gave them D10's and full base at least two poor saves would make sense. cut precision damage in half... It would at least be a reasonable choice at that point. Even with 8+int skill points, they are only just competing with bards for the skill monkey role.
Oh god no. A rogue with full bab and d10?!
It's a rogue, not sneaky fighter.
Oh god no. A rogue with full bab and d10?!
It's a rogue, not sneaky fighter.
I'm not sure your looking at whats trying to be accomplished in the right way. What does the current rogue archetype do? What is its goal in parties? It has high skills, but the bards special abilities eclipse the rogue in the skill department. Is it melee? No, it doesnt have the capacity to hit that is necessary. It has two poor saves despite the D8 hit dice and 3/4 base for some reason as well. precision damage is not very good because a great number of monsters are immune to it and it does not get multiplied when you crit.... At this point, I am not certain this class has a role. Trapfinder?
Okay, while some may cry foul at this, in my revision for the classes, I've actually taken apart a few of them and simply integrated them into other classes. Due to a lack of distinction, the inquisitor and bard classes were numbered among the classes I tore apart, and I did so for several reason:
1) An inquisitor was really nothing more than a combined version of a ranger and a paladin, with a little bit or rogue mixed in there.
2) A bard pretty much replaced a rogue in pathfinder due to their skills, and the bardic performance was very akin to 'auras' gained through paladin levels.
In my revisions, I am basically giving the rogue several of the bard abilities, while transforming bardic performance abilities into aura's for the paladin.
Again, I know I'm gonna get hell for doing this, as I imagine some people REALLY love the bard and inquisitor classes, but I honestly don't feel that they distinguish themselves enough compared to other classes.
And as far as BAB and saves for the rogue are concerned, it is my hope to still have every class have a weakness: no class should be full proof. I have added more talents to the rogue class to help them improve in combat, but I honestly don't see what the concern is over sneak attack damage.
* Elemental
* Incorporeal (unless using a ghost touch attack)
* Ooze
* Protean (50% ignore)
The above creatures are the only ones immune to rogue sneak attack, and most of them seem pretty uncommon.
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precision damage is not very good because a great number of monsters are immune to it and it does not get multiplied when you crit
Are you playing with 3.5 or Pathfinder rules. Pathfinder removed the immunity to precision based damage from A LOT OF MONSTERS that had it in 3.5. If your DM is still denying you sneak attack damage vs corporeal undead and constructs then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG.
I will admit that the class needs "work" as most of the Pathfinder changes and classes have given other characters the ability to fill the rogues shoes. Having few skills in Pathfinder, having lower skill point costs, and allowing everyone with ranks in disable device to find and disarm traps hurts. The two poor saves have always hurt.
But here's some information that I think everyone forgets when they say "this class can't do x,y,z on its own so its nerfed and doesn't work" D&D/Pathfinder is a game based on TEAM WORK People b~&@% about the rogue's "buddy system". Last time I checked, buddy system falls into TEAM WORK.
Personally, and this is my opinion I think the table top gaming community has become contaminated by this MMORPG/World of War Craft/D&D 4E/whatever mentality that if a class can't solo then its sucks. If it can't survive or do its job with minimal to zero support then it sucks. Or that it was designed poorly.
I'm not going to deny the problems with the class. The way the RAW handle Stealth makes it really difficult to play the sneak/scout game anymore. The revision to disable device hurts, and multiple avenue's to trap finding hurt, the NINJA hurts because its a better sneak than the rogue.
But I am sick of the "ROGUE SUCKS PLAY SOMETHING ELSE" bashing.
In case people forgot here's a reminder:
-PATHFINDER may as well have been called D&D 3.75. For the most part everything was designed to be backwards compatible. This means we accepted certain design flaw elements that could be fixed and recognized that some design flaw elements could not be fixed without a heavy revision that would compromise said backwards compatibility.
Personally I remember when Pathfinder gave us the "new rogue" most of us were happy with the improvements. Rogue Talents, higher Hit Die, same skill points but less skills, new favored class mechanic, CAPSTONE. It was like the folks at PAIZO made us a Rogue flavored Sundae, decked out with hot fudge and cherry on top. Now all people do is b~!%~ about how much the sundae sucks and needs to be take off the menu.
Here is what is right with the class:
-3/4 BAB with a D8 hit Die
-8+INT skill points per level
-Most Rogue Talents
-Sneak attack and the Pathfinder revision to what is and is not subject to it.
Here's what needs work:
-2 good saves (and I'll say Fortitude). Rogues have always had a weakness vs compulsions, mind effects, ect. They have tricks for getting out of it. Tricks don't mean an automatic good will save. You want to fix the will save issue... ROGUE TALENTS FOR IT.
-The Rogue needs some type of mechanic that allows it to sneak around again because Stealth just isn't doing it. Fix the damn stealth rules and it can start being the point man again.
-I personally believe we need some type of "point pool" mechanic for the Rogue, akin to the whole Ki Pool mechanic. Maybe call it a Luck Pool. Here are some ideas for it:
(The possibilities are endless for this one)
-Need something to balance the luck pool. Here's an idea. Luck pool is gained at 2nd level instead of evasion. So long as you have at least 1 point in your luck pool you have the evasion class feature, and this qualifies as having evasion for the purposes of feats, prerequisites, ect.
-Here's an idea to help out Sneak attack some more: How about a bonus (insert type here) to hit equal to half your total number of sneak attack dice rounded down. So a 20th level Rogue with 10d6 Sneak attack dice gets a +5 bonus to hit. Guess what +15BAB with a +5 bonus to hit, I think that would equal a minimum or +20 Right.
Mainly the rogue just needs some work. Not a full rebuild. Its not a combat tank. Its a support character. It doesn't need a full BAB and a D10 hit die. What it needs are more tools to do its job. The class is sound. It always has been. The problem is not with the foundation or premise with the class. Its the fact that certain RAW issues have compromised the class and revisions to the base D&D system have compromised the class.
good stuff
I +1 you good sir.
Imo, the luck thing could be made in to a archetypeand the sneak attack one in to a rouge talent and call it a day.
in fact.... [/copy-paste] done.. i will roll with it
But here's some information that I think everyone forgets when they say "this class can't do x,y,z on its own so its nerfed and doesn't work" D&D/Pathfinder is a game based on TEAM WORK People b$#*@ about the rogue's "buddy system". Last time I checked, buddy system falls into TEAM WORK.So what's the rogue bring to the team that's worth putting up with their weaknesses?
It's not face skills. Lots of classes either have them as class skills, have charisma as their primary stat, or both.
It's not defense. Sneak attack requires the rogue to be out of line. Any other medium or full BAB class can get in between the wizard and the enemies, but the rogue has to be flanking.
It's not damage. Even with ignoring the circumstantial nature of sneak attack they fall behind a moderately optimized greatsword fighter. Bards laugh at them in a party with three or more weapon users. All the full BAB classes and most of the mediums outdamage rogues when placed in a party. And they don't have to put themselves in position to be surrounded to do it.
It's not stealth. Stealth becomes useless pretty quickly in a team unless everyone is good at it, and if everyone's good at it the rogue isn't adding anything.
All that's left is trap handling. That's what the rogue does in a team that a non-rogue couldn't do as well or better. He's the locksmith. Get outside the CRB and he doesn't have the monopoly on that role either.
Jack of All Trades. Doesn't have to be the best at any one area, but can do pretty much everything at some level. *sigh* And I know you're going to say other classes can do that. More skill points = wider coverage = more spots they can cover. My 2 cp.
*cough* bard *cough*
*cough* bard *cough*
Similar range. Not as many class skills (iirc) and skill points per level. Other abilitites. You're point being? That other classes can cover most of the bases? Maybe, but there are things each does better than the other. Depends on what a given party needs and what you, as a player, want to do. I'm not saying that Rogues are the "best class evvaaar", just that they can fit into a party and fill a number of rolls depending on the current needs of the party. They are versatile (as is the Bard, I agree) with a wide range of abilities and skills and that makes up for the fact they are not the best at any one thing.
You don't need a jack of all trades unless you're on a solo or possibly 2 PC adventure.
Both are possible. Casualties are also possible in any party and you may need an "extra" in a given role depending on the needs of the moment.
versatile performers can spend 3 points to get 6 different skills capped. Bardic knowledge and loremaster make the bard an effective 'know everything' guy. Thats like getting .5 of a point per level in all of them... theres 10 knowledges so that works out to 5 points a level, later you can always take ten on a knowledge check.
I really cant see a rogue winning in the skill department to be honest.
take a one level dip in rogue and you can disable magic traps on him too. And this is just the skill side, there are other things.
Wow. I just reread "Versatile Performer".
I don't know why, but I thought it would simply allow the bard to use one perform subskill to be used as any other perform skill (effectively making it into a single perform skill for the bard).
But the true function? Wow.
That's really messed up.
You can't let one skill work like two additional skills!
What was paizo thinkin?
I am okay with "lore master" for the bard, but this?!
I am buffled and speechless.
Seriously, I need a mate-tea.
Okay, got my tea und feel better now.
How about the following "fix" for "Versatile Performer":
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in any other Perform skill. In addition, he receives a bonus on certain skills, depending on his Perform skills. For every 5 ranks in any one Perform skill, the bard receives a +2 bonus on one specific skill as listed: Act (Disguise), Comedy (Sense Motive), Dance (Acrobatics), Music (Handle Animal), Oratory (Diplomacy).
Okay, thanks to DracoDruid, I was finally able to figure out how to post this bloody thing into an 'actual format' that people can see. I hope you all like my revisions (and yes, I actually did condense the skill list as well). On a final note, I still haven't added ALL the rogue talents you can select, but the ones listed should give the rogue all the power it needs in order to perform well both in and out of combat. Hope you all enjoy, and please feel free to leave some advice.
Just a note, bards are meant to be the skill masters in PF. Rogues are not.
@ Duskblade: I think you are on to something. There are some very good base ideas here. Perhaps a little more fleshing out and refinement are in order, but very good idea.
@ Everyone: This thread also has some good and some bad ideas improving on the Rogue class IMO:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz695x&page=1?Should-the-Rogue-have-been-full -BAB
Additionally I think one very important thing that a lot of people forget (especially in their home games) is that PF was created to be backwards compatible with 3.5 for a reason... So if your PF Rogue (or PF game in general) needs a boost, ask your DM if you can draw from the 3.5 resources that PF was built from. It worked well in my games, and created a lot of diversity in the game with both characters and NPCs that didn’t yet exist in the published PF books.
I don't think the Rogue needs to be a full BAB class, although it would be the easiest change to make if you want to bring them up a little without putting much work into it. But the real problem with the Rogue is that they have lost a lot of their identity to other classes along the transition to PF and have suffered a further loss of that identity with several of the archetypes and alternate classes that have been published more recently. The Rogue can do a lot of things pretty well but at present can't do any of them better than (or in most cases even half as good as) the other base classes they share those areas of expertise with.
Rogue is/has:
1) Stealth - Shared with Bard and Ranger primarily. Both the Bard and the Ranger have built in advantages over the Rogue when it comes to Stealth and sneaking around unnoticed. The Bard has several spells that can augment its sneaking making it naturally better than the Rogue. The Ranger is IMO the unchallenged King of Stealth, in many ways even better than the Shadowdancer and Assassin PrCs in this regard and certainly far better than the Rogue. Not only do Rangers get spells to help their sneaking, they get Camouflage and HiPS in each of their favored terrains (no matter the lighting conditions, and even in an anti-magic field). A smart player in a consistent campaign can pick his favored terrains carefully and probably have access to Camouflage and HiPS through 80%-90% of the game. PF attempted to patch this in the APG with the HiPS Advanced Talent. This still leaves the Rogue having to spend a great deal of his finite class resources and it still isn’t even close to what the Ranger is capable of without spending any finite class resources. Aside from spending half or all of his Advanced Talents on HiPS the Rogue is forced to PrC into Shadowdancer or Assassin (neither of which are fantastic options IMO) in order to be even almost as good as a Ranger in the Stealth and scouting departments.
2) Trap Finder - Traps and Poisons look to be improved in PF but a lot of people complain that traps are rare in PFS and Home Games. That isn’t the case with my DMs but in a case where it’s true you aren’t going to shine as a Rogue clearing the way for the party. Add on top of that all the Archetypes for other classes that now have access to Rogue level trap finding capabilities and the Rogue starts to become less individual with even less to contribute.
3) Skill Monkey – Shared with Bard and Ranger primarily; Inquisitor also does a good job in some aspects. The PF Bard has without a doubt and without even a close competitor taken the crown away from every other class in this regard, and that is without even needing to use their spells. With spells included the comparison is ridiculous. IMO 6 + Int Bonus, 6th level Spells, Versatile Performance, Lore Master, and Jack of All Trades are a bit much in the skill diversity department. No one should be more diverse or handy in any given situation (without the use of magic) than a Rogue, but the Bard so far overshadows the Rogue in this regard that it’s not even a fair comparison. To continue to call the Rogue a “skill monkey” just because it has 8 + Int bonus and Trapfinding as a class ability is an insult, teasing all Rogues everywhere with the title that they have pathetically lost to the PF Bard.
4) Face of the Party – Please, most Rangers can do just as well in Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate (especially against favored enemies). Fighters and Barbarians (especially of the Orcish persuasion) can be far better at Intimidate. The Inquisitor actually gets class ability bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate. There is no reason a Paladin shouldn’t crush a Rogue as the “face of the party.” And let’s face it; the Bard with its kingship over skills really crushes everyone in this department as well.
5) Support Combatant (Sneak Attacker) – Sneak Attack provides great spike damage; unfortunately that is also the main problem. A lot of the reason the Rogue has inconsistent damage is TWF, most people look at that -2 to hit and think it’s not a big deal, you make it up in Flanking, but it really is a big deal. My best performing Rogues have been single hand melee builds. Additionally Sneak Attack is still fairly situational. It isn’t as highly situational as a Ranger’s Favored Enemy damage; however the Ranger has better consistent damage output. The Fighter, on the other hand, has access to feats and class features that give them a huge damage output on a very consistent level (which is a good thing, they are performing exactly as they should be). However, some Bard Archetypes get good, fairly consistent damage and to hit bonuses without even tapping into their spells.
6) Battlefield Mobility – The Rogue is capable with high Acrobatics (it’s harder in PF but still possible) to get quickly into position almost anywhere on the battlefield. Put that together with high Dex based AC, Dodge, Mobility, and possibly Spring Attack and the Rogue goes anywhere he wants on the battlefield with relatively little to fear. These feats were always open to anyone willing to invest but were usually only taken by Rogues and Monks from what I have seen. Once again the Bard (and in this case the Monk) has been given special advantages and started to utterly surpass the Rogue in this capability with the addition of the Dimensional Agility feat tree. With access to these feats the Monk and Bard have effectively blown away anything the Rogue could ever hope to achieve in this arena. It would be one thing if the Shadowdancer’s Shadow Jump ability counted as a prerequisite for these feats (at least then the Rogue could PrC into this capability) but that is not the case and once again the Bard has solidly crushed any and all competition in this aspect.
The release of PF CRB saw a great deal of improvement for all classes; however I think the Bard has gotten more than its fair share, especially after the release of APG and UC Archetypes. If you want to play a Rogue there is no mechanical reason you shouldn’t instead choose to play a Sandman Bard or an Archeologist Bard, and if you want to play a combat oriented Rogue there is no mechanical reason not to instead play a Dervish Dancer Bard. The Bard has not only stepped on the toes of the Rogue; it has cut off both feet at the ankles. As far as I can tell if you are playing a Rogue instead of a Ranger or a Archetype Bard it is simply because you have a soft spot in your heart for Rogues (I am one of these people so it pains me deeply to write this). IMO the thing that needs to happen to improve the Rogue class is to give it back some of its identity. By this I mean several things, keep in mind not ALL of these things need to happen together, but some of them definitely do:
1) Stealth - The base Rogue should be on close to equal ground with the Ranger in the arena of Stealth (that means improving their HiPS Advanced Talent; giving more bang for that buck).
2) Trap Finder – Rogues should most certainly be the undisputed king of B&E and handling traps. They don’t have to be the only ones capable of setting or taking down traps, but they should be the only ones who get the big bonuses to trap finding and the only ones able to use disable device on magical traps.
3) Skill Monkey – The Bard’s Versatile Performance should get scaled back, I like what DracoDruid wrote. Jack of All Trades should be scaled back a little and entered as a Rogue Advanced Talent. It should also be removed as the Bard capstone ability and replaced with something that gives the Bard it's own unique identity without taking away one of the Rogue's major identities. Also, perhaps give the Rogue a 10 + Int bonus for Skill Points to set them a bit further ahead as "skill monkeys" in light of the way PF changed the skills system.
4) Face of the Party – I think the Rogue is right where he should be here with certain Rogue talents. If there is a Bard or a Paladin in the party I think it makes sense that they would be better than the Rogue in this regard.
5) Support Combatant – I think the class is pretty much where it should be here. Perhaps a +1 every 5 levels to hit bonus when dealing SA would give them a small boost. Or maybe just increasing their options like combat swipe and other related abilities.
6) Battlefield Mobility – The Rogue is pretty much exactly where he should be here. If built right a Rogue moving through the battlefield is pretty hard to hit. I would love to see the Shadowdancer’s Shadow Jump ability count as a prerequisite for the Dimensional Agility feat tree.
In other words, improve the Rogue's Stealth abilities and scale the Bard way back because he is really derailing the Rogue in a lot of ways. I agree that the 3.5 Bard was terrible and needed help, but I think it's been taken too far into the Rogue's territory.
Shadowlord, your link is messed up. The text is correct, but the link itself points to Tark's "What drew you to the rogue?" thread
Shadowlord, your link is messed up. The text is correct, but the link itself points to Tark's "What drew you to the rogue?" thread
Wow, lets try this again... it's too late for me to modify my old post so here are both threads, they both have some interesting ideas.
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i have heard this called Guile Pool, Cunning Pool, Luck Pool...
here is my 'name' and take on it.
Execution Pool (Ex):
Execution Pool (Ex):
A Rogue uses rigorous on-the-ground training and off-the-cuff thinking to develop and build upon her natural aptitudes. She is the undisputed master of Extraordinary Abilities that supplement her broad and deep understandings of how to execute incredible feats of raw skill.
Skills modified by an Execution Pool must be Trained Rogue Skills. That is, Class Skills that the Rogue has at least 1 rank in - with the exception of Craft, Profession, and Performance Skills. Appropriate Skills to use with the Execution Pool are as follows: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
at 2nd level, a Rogue gains an Execution Pool equal to half her Rogue Level plus CHA modifier. this pool replenishes after 8 hours of rest. if the Rogue ever steals an item from a non-ally worth more than 1,000 times her Rogue level in gold pieces, she immediately gains 1 point back.
so long as she has 1 point in her pool, she instead gains a +5 bonus to Trained Rogue Skills, which overlaps (does not stack with) the usual +3 bonus to Trained Class skills.
Innovative Execution (Ex):
further, as a free action, she may spend 1 point to gain a +1 Insight bonus to any Trained Rogue Skill check. If this would drop her to 0 points, she maintains her enhanced Training bonus (+5, see above) for the duration of the check. at third level, and every three Rogue levels thereafter, her Innovative Execution bonus further increases by +1. Innovative Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Confident Execution (Ex):
at 6th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to roll twice for a single Trained Rogue Skill check, taking the desired result. she must declare this usage before rolling the dice. Confident Execution may be used in conjunction with the various Rogue Talents that allow additional rolls, but never more than once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Smooth Execution (Ex):
at 10th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to "take 10" on any Trained Rogue Skill check (or, on any single roll as part of a check). If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, she may additionally partially or totally ignore a penalty of up to -5 per additional point spent. Smooth Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Meticulous Execution (Ex):
at 14th level, as a free action she may choose to re-roll any Trained Rogue Skill check after rolling an initial attempt, by expending 1 point. this second result must be kept. If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, the first result may be kept in lieu of the second result. Meticulous Execution may only be used up to once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Masterful Execution (Ex):
at 18th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to "take 20" on any Trained Rogue Skill check. If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, she may additionally partially or totally ignore a penalty of up to -10 per additional point spent. Masterful Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
...
whaddya all think?
my intent here is to boost the Rogue's non-combat skills (of course some of these can certainly be used in combat which is a roundabout way of boosting the combat skills) and re-establish the Rogue as the Go-To Class for Breadth AND Depth of Skill Training, without encroaching upon some of the brilliant mechanical/thematic changes/innovations that are the Bard or Ninja, except inasmuch as there is 'skill competition' between them - my proposals advance on par with Versatile Performance (2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th) and Ki Pool (2nd). And all in Extraordinary (Ex) fashion, leaving Arcane/Arbitrary Lore to the Bard and the Supernatural to the Ninja. Also, i tried to create the incentive to remain 'loyal' to the class by spreading these abilities out, tying them into other 'skillsy' Rogue Talents for additional effect, and making the benefits exclusive to "Trained Rogue Skills".
if you like this, help me name the abilities better?