My current GM has this opinion that a 7th level synthesist is THE most powerful character in the game. He had a character that used a size large eidolon, had four arms, reach, and two set of claws maximized damage via evolutions and feats, and maxed out possible strength.
So yes, is he correct?
I don't think your GM is the only person who thinks Synthesists are OP. I'm becoming less and less a fan of them myself. The more I tinker with them, the more I realize how easy it is for the to get out of hand quickly.
They probably won't generally be allowed in any of my games.
I don't think your GM is the only person who thinks Synthesists are OP. I'm becoming less and less a fan of them myself. The more I tinker with them, the more I realize how easy it is for the to get out of hand quickly.
They probably won't generally be allowed in any of my games.
Can I see your math?
How is this any different than a summoner who gets accentual two full round actions between two character?
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I would argue that certain druid builds are capable of matching or exceeding the synthesist's melee capabilities at that level range.
I even posted such a build a few weeks ago.
As for a fighter, he won't have the raw strength of either a druid or a syntheseist. He will, however, have a much larger bag of tricks available.
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Unless we see a build, we can't really comment on the possible broken nature of the character. It's true that summoners can more easily made powerful than other classes, but they also succumb to a variety of weaknesses other classes don't.
Basically, show the build to us for analysis, and don't freak out. Most sufficiently optimized characters can do crazy things on paper (heck, look at Druid >_>).
Unless we see a build, we can't really comment on the possible broken nature of the character. It's true that summoners can more easily made powerful than other classes, but they also succumb to a variety of weaknesses other classes don't.
Basically, show the build to us for analysis, and don't freak out. Most sufficiently optimized characters can do crazy things on paper (heck, look at Druid >_>).
Sorry, but you guys will need to build it, I did NOT play this supposed character in one of my game master's old game. I am TWICE REMOVED for the offending character here so cut me some slack.
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To start with, a summoner has to be 8th level for his eidolon to have the Large evolution, so the character is illegal just on that basis.
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So, yet another case of illegal eidolons making the class seem overpowered. At level 8 the eidolon will gain just one evolution point compared to the current (illegal) build, while the fighter will get +1 BAB and a feat. That might even the odds a bit.
I have found a well built synthasist is powerful. They may be the best tank in the game, esp with the antagonize or body guard feats. They have a hard time out damaging a fighter. They can hit fairly often, but they tend to spread their damage out among weaker attacks and have a harder time overcoming DR. They can usually beat it in my experience, but not by a lot. As the guys above have said, it is usually an improperly built eidelon that is responsible for the grossly overpowered builds that show up.
Considering what you have told us:
Large Evolution (already established as illegal at that level): 4 EP
Additional set of limbs: 2 EP
+ Claws x2 : 2 EP
+ Improved Damage: 1 EP
Maxed out Strength: 4 EP
Reach x 4: 4 EP
Mistake there, but you bring up a good point.
P.S. Does enlarge person work on Eidolon's
Yes he is... the SS is probably the most broken archetype of a pretty broken class in the game. And I would not be surprised if some major action on it was taken by Paizo in the near future.My current GM has this opinion that a 7th level synthesist is THE most powerful character in the game. He had a character that used a size large eidolon, had four arms, reach, and two set of claws maximized damage via evolutions and feats, and maxed out possible strength.
So yes, is he correct?
I wasn't asking for opinions really, could you back this up?
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Considering what you have told us:
Large Evolution (already established as illegal at that level): 4 EP
Additional set of limbs: 2 EP
+ Claws x2 : 2 EP
+ Improved Damage: 1 EP
Maxed out Strength: 4 EP
Reach x 4: 4 EP
Mistake there, but you bring up a good point.
P.S. Does enlarge person work on Eidolon's
The Bipedal form comes with a set of free claws.
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The SS doesn't have to out damage or out tank the fighter to be broken. If they're close enough to par, the fact that they're also potent spellcasters will tip the balance.
Except that a normal summoner beats the normal Synthesist via action economy ALONE, and no one complains about that guy.
Synthesists can be combat beasts, just like many classes, but they, moreso than any other Summoner build, tend to be one-trick ponies, which is never a good thing.
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Considering what you have told us:
Large Evolution (already established as illegal at that level): 4 EP
Additional set of limbs: 2 EP
+ Claws : 1 EP
+ Improved Damage: 1 EP
Maxed out Strength: 4 EP
Reach x 4: 4 EPSo, we have an Eidolon that has potentially spent 16 Evolution Points of 10 available at Level 7.
Yeah, i am somewhat confident that the faulty build is mainly to blame.
Further Addendum:
I just did the math, roughly. In my group we have a fighter focused on ranged combat that is not only on par in terms of damage but could also potentially strip this sythesist of his eidolon in one full attack (remember, Eidolon hitpoints are always averaged racial hit dice), especially, since he definitely does not have the Evo points to keep his AC capped as well.
And a Synthesist with all his eggs in one basket like this is very vulnerable without his Eidolonform if he only has probably sub-par Summons (i doubt he has the feats to spent on Augmented and Superior Summons).
If he maxed out strength, he could taken two bumps, but each would cost double (4 EP each) for a total of 8 just in ability score increases, potentially adding another 4 points over the limit. A lot of people forget that Strength and Constitution cost double while large or huge.
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I find synthesist to be scarily powerful, mainly because they have the same issue that 3.5 Druids do: You don't care about your physical stats, except Con.
This means you can totally dump Str and Dex (because your synthesis form gets much higher values) allowing you to have high casting stats and silly-high melee stats. As far as the argument about being weak when you lose the synthesis, that is a moot point because ~it never happens~.
Fused Link reads: "Starting at 1st level, the synthesist forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being killed and sent back to its home plane."
Because there is no limit on how often this ability can be used, the synthesis is only lost when you are finally KOed. You can pour all of your natural hit points into maintaining the synthesis. For a high-Con Synthesist, this means you have twice as many hit points as any other character of your level.
Having run a campaign with a 12th-level synthesist, along with several other highly optimized characters (a very nasty Kineticist, a Gunslinger with 6 high damage attack a round, and an Oracle that would just never die due to stupid high AC, saves, and HP), I found that the Synthesist was the unbalancing factor.
Just my personal opinion, though.
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The SS doesn't have to out damage or out tank the fighter to be broken. If they're close enough to par, the fact that they're also potent spellcasters will tip the balance. They can buff up their eidolon suits the same way a standard eidolon can be buffed. (including Enlarge Person) And they've got a lot of crowd control spells on their hands.
A combat focused Synthesist is going to spend very little time casting in combat, and what he does cast is going to be mostly self-buffs and self heals.
You have an issue with a melee build buffing and healing, you can include paladins and rangers in your list of problem classes.
So he made an illegal character? Oh goody, Summoners are really powerful man. Druids, Bards, Alchemists, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics all are on the same level of power but in different ways. The a melee druid is actually more powerful at this level than the synthesist with pouncing large tigers. The bard can get good hope, inspire courage, and haste off in a single turn at this level making the bard contribute more power than the synthesist. A beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist can deal more damage than the synthesist at this level as well. Sorcerers can cast empowered fireballs that 12d6+12 Effectively ending encounters before they even start with their high initiative. Clerics can make the party nearly impossible to kill and put out fantastic buffs as well. In the end I think the synthesist summoner is a little on the weaker side when it comes to some other classes.
The Bipedal form comes with a set of free claws.Considering what you have told us:
Large Evolution (already established as illegal at that level): 4 EP
Additional set of limbs: 2 EP
+ Claws x2 : 2 EP
+ Improved Damage: 1 EP
Maxed out Strength: 4 EP
Reach x 4: 4 EP
Mistake there, but you bring up a good point.
P.S. Does enlarge person work on Eidolon's
Ah yes.
n around in an unnatural bastard form between monster and man.
And almost every Synthesist build i have seen so far was borderline useless without his fused form. And that is easier to take away than many realize.
Yeah people laugh at me when I actually put in half decent physical stats in my builds.
I don't believe you have to buy reach for EACH claw.
A sythasist has a huge weakness. Touch AC. The only way around it is the build the synthasist so it is barely a threat to anything. An alchemist with dispelling bombs can both damage and strip a synthasist of their buffs.
Plus as someone else stated, they loose on action economy. Any round they are casting is a round they are not ripping something to shreds.
Pics or it didn't happen :)
i doubt a gunslinger could destroy a synthesist. even if it were something like a tiefling pistolero with twin revolvers and a prehensile tail. guns deal crap damage, synthesist is a mountain of hit points, synthesist deals decent damage, gunslinger has poor hit points, synthesist may be capable of flight. gunslinger isn't without outside help. synthesist also has grapple modifiers that make gunslinger cry.
1st round, gunslinger gets initiave and full attacks, synthesist survives
synthesist flies and grapples gunslinger
2nd round, gunslinger flails around helplessly. not enough CMB to escape
synthesist autodamages gunslinger and gunslinger can't escape
3rd round and after, repeat till gunslinger dies.
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Schrodinger's Battle, right there. Nothing but several assumptions that are not neutral to both sides.
In regard to Reach -- There is no mention that you can take that evolution more than once. He would get 10' reach for all attacks as a Large biped for free, though. I do not recall seeing it clearly stated anywhere whether Reach (Claw) grants an extra 5' of reach for a single claw attack, a single pair of claw attacks, or all claw attack.
Also, the maximum number of evolution points that the eidolon can possibly have is 13 -- 10 from level 7 summoner, 2 from taking Extra Evolution feat twice, and 1 from favored class bonuses if he is a half-elf.
Finally, it is questionable whether the summoner can take feats that he qualifies for only when "suited" in his eidolon.
Still -- It is possible to make a legal version of the synthesist summoner as described at 8th level, so the oroginal poster's question becomes relevant then. But as others have indicated, this character is a beast while in his eidolon suit but it is quite easy to strip him of it. If you take this archetype, you are basically playing Ultra-Man -- which means that you should strive to be minimually competent without the "suit".
It does at the moment, though a final resolution has been pending for months.
P.S. Does enlarge person work on Eidolon's
It does? Why? Enlarge Person works only on humanoids, like Charm Person and Hold Person. Eidolons are considered outsiders for the purpose of spell effects.
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It does? Why? Enlarge Person works only on humanoids, like Charm Person and Hold Person. Eidolons are considered outsiders for the purpose of spell effects.It does at the moment, though a final resolution has been pending for months.
P.S. Does enlarge person work on Eidolon's
But the Share Spells class feature makes it possible for a spell that targets humanoids to target the eidolon.
The problem for a synthesist is that summoner and eidolon are not separate creatures and thus normally cannot be targeted separately.
the "Schrodinger's battle" i posted makes the following assumptions
that the synthesist has the flight and large evolutions, which is a smart idea at this level.
that the synthesist has hands to initiate the grapple
that the synthesist has a mountain of hit points
and that the gunslinger has no hope of escaping
this is reasonably achievable by 8th level.
an 8th level Biped synthesist (using halved hit dice on both sides) has with a 14 Constitution (unfused) and an 18 constitution (fused). the eidolon's 4th level bump went to constitution.
52 HP Base and 60 Temp hp from eidolon. for 112
a gunslinger with 14 constitution and favored class bonus has 76 HP
it assumes the gunslinger gets initiative and the synthesist survives the full attack.
lets look at CMB CMD. this doesn't account for gear, but a large biped eidolon has a strength of 26 at this level. with +1 for being large and 12 dex. CMB of +15 with a bab of +6 and a CMD of 26.
Gunslinger has 10 Str. 20 Dex and +8 bab. Gunslinger has CMB of +8, needs 18 or better to break free. CMD of 23, Synthesist needs 8 or better to grapple gunslinger.
Now that we're getting closer to seeing actual builds, what are the rest of the ability scores the gunslinger and synthesist have? What races are they? Their equipment?
Build them, and we shall see how a battle really goes. :)
Now that we're getting closer to seeing actual builds, what are the rest of the ability scores the gunslinger and synthesist have? What races are they? Their equipment?
Build them, and we shall see how a battle really goes. :)
i left them race, gear and feat neutral on purpose. the only thing racially assumed is that the gunslinger's race provides +2 dexterity. i am considering making the gunslinger a tiefling pistolero with a prehensile tail and 2 revolvers.
Synthesist (Fused)
Str 26 (14 unfused) Dex 12 (12 unfused) Con 18 (14 unfused) int 14 wis 12 cha 16
Gunslinger; Str 10 Dex 20 Con 14 int 12 wis 14 cha 8
Synthesist is much stronger than Fighter. Regular summoner is stronger than Synthesist, though. This massive class imbalance is why the tier system exists. OP, your DM is correct, though he is very very wrong if he thinks normal summoner or any of the primary spellcasters are "ok" and only synthesist is over the top.
Except that a normal summoner beats the normal Synthesist via action economy ALONE, and no one complains about that guy.
Ooh, ooh! I do! I do! I do!
*jumps up and down in the crowd, flailing his hands frantically*
Here’s an example to consider, since it comes from a game I’m running at the moment. I allowed this to happen partially to see how things play out. The PCs are currently 2nd level.
Fighter 2 = STR 16, DEX 16, INT 14, WIS 10, CON 14, CHA 10
Feats = Power Attack, Toughness, Greatsword Focus, Quick Draw
Attacks w/ Greatsword = +6 (2d6+4) / with Power Attack = +5 (2d6+7)
Gnome Synthesist 2 = STR 5, DEX 7, INT 7, WIS 13, CON 20, CHA 20
Feats = Martial Weapon Proficiency Greatsword
Eidolon = STR 17, DEX 13, CON 13
Evolutions = Extra Arms, Bite, Claws
HP = 23, AC = 17
Attacks = Greatsword +5 (2d6+4) and 1 Claw (1d4+1) and 1 Bite (1d6+1)
When combined, Saving Throws look like: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +4
So yes, at the moment, we have a synthesis who competes against the fighter in pure damage output. It should be obvious that the fighter’s player wanted a more balanced character. The synthesists player well, wanted to make a “broken” character. However, from what I can tell, everything seems legit by RAW.
However, I’ve noticed a few things.
1. The spell tax for Rejuvinate Eidolon is significant. If he wants to be a front line fighter, he can’t afford to cast any other spells. He has to heal his eidolon with those spells instead.
2. He’s near useless once the Eidolon is used up.
In actual play, both PCs contribute significantly to fights. It really doesn’t seem much more overpowered than the fighter or the raging barbarian that is also in the group.
Now I projected this a bit for 7th level, and I’d expect the following. I have an idea that the fighter will switch to using a bow primarily since ranged attacks are a weak spot in the group.
Fighter 7th: Stats are pretty much the same
Feats = Bow Focus (switched out Greatsword Focus at 4th level), Bow Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Furious Focus
She also has a STR adjusted bow but we’ll assume no magical items at the moment.
Bow Attack within 30ft = +15/+10 (1d8+6)
Deadly Aim = +13/+8 (1d8+10)
Deadly Aim with Rapid Shot = +11/+11/+6 (1d8+10)
Greatsword with Power Attack = +10/ +3 (2d6+10)
Synthesized Eidolon
STR = 20
AC = 21
Attacks = Greatsword +11 (2d6+7) and Bite +6 (1d6+2), and 2 Claws +6 (1d4+2)
I’m missing three feats for the gnome. Perhaps he’ll take Power Attack and Furious Focus as well. This brings that primary attack up
Greatsword +11 (2d6+13) but the other attacks remain the same.
Maybe I’m missing something, but the synthesist doesn’t seem overwhelming despite the min/maxing.
the synthesists boon isn't found in offense. it's found in having absurd defenses while theoretically reaching buffed inquisitor levels of offense. the biggest defense a synthesist gains is a mountain of replinishable temporary hit points, a significant stack-able bonus to armor class and saving throws, and a lot of early acquired significant buffs. the key is to differentiate between evolutions and feats. use a magic longspear with combat reflexes and the best belt of physical perfection you can afford. because you are fused, you are one unit and save money spent buying separate items or slots your couldn't add without weakening either half because you are one unit. i'd say it's almost equal to the base summoner. not due to action economy, but due to the benefits of being one unit. one share of treasure augments both, one healing spell heals the combined health pool. you can't divide your actions, but it doesn't matter if you were already focus firing.
the synthesists boon isn't found in offense. it's found in having absurd defenses while theoretically reaching buffed inquisitor levels of offense. the biggest defense a synthesist gains is a mountain of replinishable temporary hit points, a significant stack-able bonus to armor class and saving throws, and a lot of early acquired significant buffs. the key is to differentiate between evolutions and feats. use a magic longspear with combat reflexes and the best belt of physical perfection you can afford. because you are fused, you are one unit and save money spent buying separate items or slots your couldn't add without weakening either half because you are one unit. i'd say it's almost equal to the base summoner. not due to action economy, but due to the benefits of being one unit. one share of treasure augments both, one healing spell heals the combined health pool. you can't divide your actions, but it doesn't matter if you were already focus firing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me.
Absurd Defenses? The synthesist gets whatever AC the eilolon has. The summoner's AC does not stack. He gets the eidolons dex bonus, natural AC bonus and any magical armor the eidolon is wearing. When comparing against the fighter, the magical armor bonuses should be similar. Don't forget the eidolon doesn't have any feats, and the summoner is only proficient with light armor. Is the synthesist going to burn another precious feat on armor proficiency?
Stackable bonuses to AC? Where do you find this? Everythign that I can find states that the synthesist only gets the eidolon's AC, nothing more.
Saving Throws? These seems pretty standard. The eidolon has middle of the road saves for Fort, and Relex. The summoner contributes on the Will save only.
A Mountain of Replenishable Temporary Hit Points? Remember that cure spells don't work on the eidolon. Only rejuvinate eidolon heals the temporary hit points. One healing spell does not heal the combined pool.
Significant Buffs? I can only speak to my experience so far, but from what I'm seeing, the synthesists limited spell selection is saved for rejuvinate eidolon, unless he stays out of combat . . .
Mentioning magical items is almost irrelevant especially when comparing to a class that needs magic items as much as the fighter.
about the replinishable hit points. by taking some damage yourself, you can maintain the suit's health. which can be healed by cure spells. effectively, the seperate pools are essentially blurred. a summoned nonfused eidolon can benefit from cure spells, why can't a fused one?
summoners get haste as a 2nd level spell a whole level earlier than the wizard gets it as a 3rd. they also get (not counting thier SLA). in fact, thier spell list is one of the sweetest partial caster lists out there. especially for summoning, battlefield control, and buffs.
Shielded Meld is the stackable bonus to both AC and Saving throws. combined with the absurd attribute bonuses, the requisite big 6 items every other martial uses, and the special bonus type of shielded meld. you can get close to paladinlike saves. reflex will likely be your worst save, but your fortitude will be fairly decent and so will your will. shielded meld is effectively an amulet of natural armor and a cloak of resistance melded into one that stacks. like any smart martial, you would eventually look at physical perfection belts once affordable. the natural armor bonus stacks with bracers and the amulet.
limited spell selection? rejuvenate eidolon can be found on a wand. it's nice to know the spell too. and it's better to use your healing out of combat, buffing is far more efficient than healing.